Good blades, bad blades

A story goes:

Long ago, two smiths met near a small stream.

They were Masamune and his student Muramasa, and each of them
brought one of their finest blades. To show the quality of his craft,
Muramasa placed his blade in the streambed in such a way that the
edge just broke the surface. As the leaves floated by, they were
neatly cut in two, and Muramasa recovered his blade, proud of his
craftsmanship.

Masamune then placed his blade in the stream. This time, as the
leaves floated along, the were deflected to the left and right,
slipping past the blade, as it were, without harm.

This story is used to exemplify the difference between the two
smiths, but the tale is apocryphal, the two men lived about 200 years
apart, but it does demonstrate the reputation of their blades.

Muramasa was noted for 'bad luck' blades, and I have read somewhere
he might have suffered from some mental disability, perhaps
schizophrenia (quite how this is arrived at, I have no idea).

Tokugawa Ieyasu had an antipathy towards Muramasa blades, he cut
himself with one as a child, his grandfather was killed with one and
when his son committed seppuku, the kaishaku used a Muramasa blade.

Ieyasu let it be known that his men should get rid of them if they
owned one, and Muramasa blades became prized possessions amongst his
enemies.

My question - is the 'ill luck' reputation of Muramasa blades founded
on Ieyasu's antipathy, or is there evidence of this prior to the
Tokugawa?

Thomas

From what google taught me:

Apparently, that story is used to illustrate the difference between
compassionate power and brutal power, as well as studying martial
arts to preserve and respect life and studying martial arts to
destroy life, etc.

From what I read, the curse begins with Tokugawa because of
connections to his relatives' deaths. To add one more to the death
toll, Ieyasu's wife was sentenced to death for adultry (same for his
son), and of course the blade used was a Muramasa.

Here's the best website I found:
http://www.n-p-s.net/T_muramasa.htm
(Sorry, Japanese only)

You can get a bunch of hits on google with a search for
"—d"`ｺ正"
(Youtou Muramasa).

HTH,

James

--- James <awazaredo@...> wrote:

To add one

> more to the death
> toll, Ieyasu's wife was sentenced to death for
> adultry (same for his
> son), and of course the blade used was a Muramasa.

It may or may not have been a Muramasa sword that she
was executed with, but she wasn't killed for adultery.
She was killed for being suspected of plotting against
Nobunaga with her son, and in order to keep the heat
off of himself, Ieyasu had both of them killed.



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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> It may or may not have been a Muramasa sword that she
> was executed with, but she wasn't killed for adultery.
> She was killed for being suspected of plotting against
> Nobunaga with her son, and in order to keep the heat
> off of himself, Ieyasu had both of them killed.

Well, he didn't want trouble with the Taikoonate, that's for sure. ;)

Tony
--

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Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

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--- Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Well, he didn't want trouble with the Taikoonate,
> that's for sure. ;)

The Taiko Nate? I like the ring of that.



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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> --- Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:
>
>
>>Well, he didn't want trouble with the Taikoonate,
>>that's for sure. ;)
>
>
> The Taiko Nate? I like the ring of that.

oh oh....

Tony

--

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Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> --- James wrote:
>
> To add one
> > more to the death
> > toll, Ieyasu's wife was sentenced to death for
> > adultry (same for his
> > son), and of course the blade used was a Muramasa.
>
> It may or may not have been a Muramasa sword that she
> was executed with, but she wasn't killed for adultery.
> She was killed for being suspected of plotting against
> Nobunaga with her son, and in order to keep the heat
> off of himself, Ieyasu had both of them killed.
>

That makes more sense. Mental note: Mittsuu can mean plot. Thanks.

See ya later Taiko Nater

James

--- Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> > The Taiko Nate? I like the ring of that.
>
> oh oh....

*eg*

So whom shall I send first to Rokuhara....





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According to Ieyasu's biographer, A.L. Sadler:

Tokugawa Nobuyasu's seppuku was overseen by Hattori Hanzo, who
had been despatched by Ieyasu, along with one of Ieyasu's
retainers, Amakata Michitsuna, to see the matter through.

Hattori is, of course, Ieyasu' famous 'ninja chief' and
Nobuyasu requested the man to act as his kaishaku. When it came
to it, Hattori was so emotional he could not act, and Amakatsu
stepped forward to administer the coup de grace.

Ieyasu had told both men before their despatch that his son was
innocent and that the plot would at some time be shown to be a
slanderous rumour.

On their return, there was not a dry eye in the house. Both men
were troubled by the task undertaken, and both Honda Tadakatsu
and Sakakibara Yasumasa (2 of the shi-tenno - 'the 4 pillars of
the Tokugawa') wept aloud.

"And of what make was the wakizashi with which the second
struck off his head?" asked Ieyasu. "Muramasa," came the reply.
"How ominous!" he remarked. "It was a Muramasa blade that
struck down my grandfather, and when I was a child I cut myself
with one by accident, and now my son is killed by one. Muramasa
blades bode ill for our house. If any of you possess one, he
had better get rid of it."

Later Ieyasu observed "Even such a devil as Hanzo does not care
to cut off the head of his master," (which does little to
reinforce the idea of the ninja as heartless murderers).

Amakatsu, on hearing this, sensed an ominous tone in Ieyasu's
words and took himself off with all haste to Mount Koya, and
later took service with Hideyoshi.

***

The lady Tsukiyama was put to death at another time and another
place, and another retainer, Nonaka Shigemasa, oversaw
proceedings - so the Muramasa link to her might be apocryphal.

Thomas

Thomas
My understanding is that it was a Tokugawa thing although the first
generation Muramasa was reputed to have a dark and brooding character.It
seems that many Muramasa signatues were altered to disguise their true
maker's identity. Interestingly when there was open opposition to the
Tokugawa in the Bakamatsu period, Muramasa blades became very popular with
the Royalist supporters.
Clive Sinclaire

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Davidson" <tom.davidson@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 12:24 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Good blades, bad blades


>
>
> A story goes:
>
> Long ago, two smiths met near a small stream.
>
> They were Masamune and his student Muramasa, and each of them
> brought one of their finest blades. To show the quality of his craft,
> Muramasa placed his blade in the streambed in such a way that the
> edge just broke the surface. As the leaves floated by, they were
> neatly cut in two, and Muramasa recovered his blade, proud of his
> craftsmanship.
>
> Masamune then placed his blade in the stream. This time, as the
> leaves floated along, the were deflected to the left and right,
> slipping past the blade, as it were, without harm.
>
> This story is used to exemplify the difference between the two
> smiths, but the tale is apocryphal, the two men lived about 200 years
> apart, but it does demonstrate the reputation of their blades.
>
> Muramasa was noted for 'bad luck' blades, and I have read somewhere
> he might have suffered from some mental disability, perhaps
> schizophrenia (quite how this is arrived at, I have no idea).
>
> Tokugawa Ieyasu had an antipathy towards Muramasa blades, he cut
> himself with one as a child, his grandfather was killed with one and
> when his son committed seppuku, the kaishaku used a Muramasa blade.
>
> Ieyasu let it be known that his men should get rid of them if they
> owned one, and Muramasa blades became prized possessions amongst his
> enemies.
>
> My question - is the 'ill luck' reputation of Muramasa blades founded
> on Ieyasu's antipathy, or is there evidence of this prior to the
> Tokugawa?
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks, Clive,

I had wondered as much.

Thomas