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Koku value verses weapons

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#5466 [2004-09-07 14:21:18]

Koku value verses weapons

by kellylindawd

Does anyone have a vague figure or idea just what if bought in koku
a samurai sword would cost? Also the time it took to make one?

thank you

Wayne

[Next #5488]

#5488 [2004-09-08 22:17:08]

Re: [samuraihistory] Koku value verses weapons

by soshuju

Wayne-
It depends a great deal on what era you are talking about. While coin
was exchanged for rice for many years there was no standard really
until the late Muromachi, when powerful lords began minting their own
currency. It is at the time of Hideyoshi that something like a national
standard starts to take shape. It is also at this time that the idea of
swords as "treasure" starts to become widespread; Hideyoshi used them
in place of land, castles and rice as reward.
Prior to say 1500, the average samurai was probably provided swords by
his lord or master. Custom swords by well known smiths would have been
out of reach for most. Famous blades with long histories were well
recognized and usually already in the hands of privileged families.
Since the rice to gold or copper equivalents of these early times does
not seem to be well known it is hard to say how much a Sengoku period
Mid-level Bushi might have paid for his sword. It is a terribly
interesting question though, and one I want to look into further.
Once you get into the Edo period it is quite easy to see the costs for
an average sword represented about the same percentage of the average
annual income of the average Japanese then as it does now. For example
Tamiya Shigemasa is said to have ordered a sword from Hizen Tadayoshi,
a well known Keicho era smith. It took him four years to pay off the
sword which cost him 100 Kan which equals 25 Ryo or 25 Koku of rice or
200 man-en in todays money. This is the cost of a custom sword by smith
with quite a reputation so the average guy is paying anywhere between
10 to 25 Ryo for his sword, (my estimate). There aren't alot of
examples of what the "average" guy paid , but I am still looking.
If we look at the Hon'Ami family of appraisers we see that they did
not issue papers for anything valued at less than 5 Ryo as a rule but
the records that survive show that 30, 50, 100 and 150 Ryo blades were
the norm. There were 200 and 300 Ryo blades very rarely and only one
1000 Ryo blade; the famous Wakasa Masamune. At the end of the Edo
period a custom sword by Kurihara Nobuhide cost 38 Ryo 3bu, Ishido
Korekazu 31 Ryo and Koyama Munetsugu 27 Ryo. Thats 310 man-en, 248
man-en and 216 man-en respectively in todays money. Considerable sums
yes, but less than you'd pay for their works today and about what you'd
pay for work by someone like Yoshihara Yoshindo currently.
I am not so sure I made my case but if you extrapolate a bit, I think
you can argue that the everyday Edo Samurai wasn't investing in works
by the most popular smiths of his day, but was likely getting the best
the smith in his Han offered and that he could afford so 10 to 20 Ryo
or about a years salary...
IMHO,
-t

[Previous #5466] [Next #5489]

#5489 [2004-09-09 00:37:25]

Re: [samuraihistory] Koku value verses weapons

by ltdomer98

--- Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:

For example
> Tamiya Shigemasa is said to have ordered a sword
> from Hizen Tadayoshi,
> a well known Keicho era smith. It took him four
> years to pay off the
> sword which cost him 100 Kan which equals 25 Ryo or
> 25 Koku of rice or
> 200 man-en in todays money.

Tom--

For those who don't live in Japan or aren't familiar
with spending yen, you might want to explain that 200
man en (�Q�O�O���~�jmeans 2,000,000 yen. "Man-en"
wouldn't mean anything to you if you're not used to
counting out Japanese bills. To add perspective,
that's roughly $18,000 or so off the top of my head.

Thats
> 310 man-en, 248
> man-en and 216 man-en respectively in todays money.

Again, 3,100,000 yen, 2,480,000 yen, and 2,160,000
yen. Current yen rate is about 109 to the US dollar, I
think--haven't checked recently.

One thing--how did you come up with the conversion
into today's money? Where did you get that 25 koku =
200���~? Just curious, since I've always seen money
conversion like this treated as some sort of sorcery
that can't ever be trusted to be really accurate.

Nate




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#5496 [2004-09-09 19:13:47]

Re: Koku value verses weapons

by zevlord

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "kellylindawd"
wrote:
> Does anyone have a vague figure or idea just what if bought in koku
> a samurai sword would cost? Also the time it took to make one?
>
> thank you
>
> Wayne

At work so don't have my resource marital, so please correct me if
i'm wrong. Anyways have just got a quote for a hand forged sword hear
in Australia (modern Sword) Costing $1500 AU with a live blade. If
you are looking for a Sword from a certain era from a well know smith
that has been authenticated you would be looking at a starting price
of $100,000 and up from memory.

[Previous #5489] [Next #5497]

#5497 [2004-09-09 22:57:33]

Re: [samuraihistory] Koku value verses weapons

by kellylindawd

thanks you i am in the middle of desiging a game and need a gauge for wepons cost
any ideas on what a matchlock would cost and how much was an average samurai paid per year?


thank you again for taking out the time


wayne

Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:
Wayne-
It depends a great deal on what era you are talking about. While coin
was exchanged for rice for many years there was no standard really
until the late Muromachi, when powerful lords began minting their own
currency. It is at the time of Hideyoshi that something like a national
standard starts to take shape. It is also at this time that the idea of
swords as "treasure" starts to become widespread; Hideyoshi used them
in place of land, castles and rice as reward.
Prior to say 1500, the average samurai was probably provided swords by
his lord or master. Custom swords by well known smiths would have been
out of reach for most. Famous blades with long histories were well
recognized and usually already in the hands of privileged families.
Since the rice to gold or copper equivalents of these early times does
not seem to be well known it is hard to say how much a Sengoku period
Mid-level Bushi might have paid for his sword. It is a terribly
interesting question though, and one I want to look into further.
Once you get into the Edo period it is quite easy to see the costs for
an average sword represented about the same percentage of the average
annual income of the average Japanese then as it does now. For example
Tamiya Shigemasa is said to have ordered a sword from Hizen Tadayoshi,
a well known Keicho era smith. It took him four years to pay off the
sword which cost him 100 Kan which equals 25 Ryo or 25 Koku of rice or
200 man-en in todays money. This is the cost of a custom sword by smith
with quite a reputation so the average guy is paying anywhere between
10 to 25 Ryo for his sword, (my estimate). There aren't alot of
examples of what the "average" guy paid , but I am still looking.
If we look at the Hon'Ami family of appraisers we see that they did
not issue papers for anything valued at less than 5 Ryo as a rule but
the records that survive show that 30, 50, 100 and 150 Ryo blades were
the norm. There were 200 and 300 Ryo blades very rarely and only one
1000 Ryo blade; the famous Wakasa Masamune. At the end of the Edo
period a custom sword by Kurihara Nobuhide cost 38 Ryo 3bu, Ishido
Korekazu 31 Ryo and Koyama Munetsugu 27 Ryo. Thats 310 man-en, 248
man-en and 216 man-en respectively in todays money. Considerable sums
yes, but less than you'd pay for their works today and about what you'd
pay for work by someone like Yoshihara Yoshindo currently.
I am not so sure I made my case but if you extrapolate a bit, I think
you can argue that the everyday Edo Samurai wasn't investing in works
by the most popular smiths of his day, but was likely getting the best
the smith in his Han offered and that he could afford so 10 to 20 Ryo
or about a years salary...
IMHO,
-t



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#5499 [2004-09-09 22:54:20]

Re: [samuraihistory] Koku value verses weapons

by kellylindawd

thank you i just wanted to get some type of pricing for weapons for a game i am designing


thank you so much


Wayne

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Tom Helm wrote:

For example
> Tamiya Shigemasa is said to have ordered a sword
> from Hizen Tadayoshi,
> a well known Keicho era smith. It took him four
> years to pay off the
> sword which cost him 100 Kan which equals 25 Ryo or
> 25 Koku of rice or
> 200 man-en in todays money.

Tom--

For those who don't live in Japan or aren't familiar
with spending yen, you might want to explain that 200
man en (�Q�O�O���~�jmeans 2,000,000 yen. "Man-en"
wouldn't mean anything to you if you're not used to
counting out Japanese bills. To add perspective,
that's roughly $18,000 or so off the top of my head.

Thats
> 310 man-en, 248
> man-en and 216 man-en respectively in todays money.

Again, 3,100,000 yen, 2,480,000 yen, and 2,160,000
yen. Current yen rate is about 109 to the US dollar, I
think--haven't checked recently.

One thing--how did you come up with the conversion
into today's money? Where did you get that 25 koku =
200���~? Just curious, since I've always seen money
conversion like this treated as some sort of sorcery
that can't ever be trusted to be really accurate.

Nate




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#5500 [2004-09-10 00:36:04]

Oda Nobukatsu/Nobuo

by ltdomer98

I'm currently re-reading Berry's Hideyoshi, and in it
she states that Nobukatsu was offered Tokugawa
Ieyasu's domains in Mikawa and Totomi when Ieyasu took
the Kanto after the fall of the Hojo, and that
Nobukatsu declined, leading to his banishment. I
remember reading elsewhere, though, that he fought on
the Western side at Sekigahara--am I thinking perhaps
of Samboshi, or did he somehow get back into
Hideyoshi's good graces in the 1590's?



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#5503 [2004-09-10 01:07:31]

Re: Koku value verses weapons

by zevlord

>
> Tom Helm wrote:
> Wayne-
> It depends a great deal on what era you are talking about.

Well actually the value placed on most blades is largely determined
by the reputation of the maker, age has little effect on the worth.
For Example, a blade made in 1661 by Kotetsu (Musashi Province)
demands several times the price of one made in 1368 by Kunimune
(Etchu Provine). The value of a sword with excellent engravings or
forged by two or more smiths or with historical significance is often
doubled.

Trivia Time

Did you know that prior to World War 2 there ware around one and a
half millions swords in existence in Japan, one third being Daito. At
present, there are no more than on hundred thousand swords in Japan.
In fact, there are more samurai swords in America today than there
are in Japan. An Estimated 250,000 to 350,000 swords have been
brought into the country as souvenirs by returning service men.

[Previous #5500] [Next #5505]

#5505 [2004-09-10 06:11:22]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Koku value verses weapons

by soshuju

Zev et al-
What you say is very true today. The question was "what did the
average Samurai have to pay for swords?" As Nate has pointed out the
price of rice and it's value against gold and silver fluctuated
throughout the historical period so it is very hard to say at any given
point in history, what something cost then in real dollars today. I
qualified my answer with, "it depends", because early on the average
soldier was simply equipped by his lord, I haven't come across any
examples of the cost of an individual sword or even groups of swords
from that time. (That is not to say that I ain't looking). Once you get
into the Edo period it is much easier to find examples/anecdotes and
the monetary system and it's relative values are better understood.
I apologize if it wasn't clear that the smiths I used as examples were
better known and commanded slightly higher prices, and of course famous
works were out of reach for most then as now...
-t


On Sep 10, 2004, at 12:53 AM, zevlord wrote:

> > Tom Helm wrote:
> > Wayne-
> >������ It depends a great deal on what era you are talking about.
>
>
> Well actually the value placed on most blades is largely determined
> by the reputation of the maker, age has little effect on the worth.
> For Example, a blade made in 1661 by Kotetsu (Musashi Province)
> demands several times the price of one made in 1368 by Kunimune
> (Etchu Provine). The value of a sword with excellent engravings or
> forged by two or more smiths or with historical significance is often
> doubled.
>
> Trivia Time
>
> Did you know that prior to World War 2 there ware around one and a
> half millions swords in existence in Japan, one third being Daito. At
> present, there are no more than on hundred thousand swords in Japan.
> In fact, there are more samurai swords in America today than there
> are in Japan. An Estimated 250,000 to 350,000 swords have been
> brought into the country as souvenirs by returning service men.
>
> Resource:
> The Samurai Sword
> J. M. Yumoto
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> � To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
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#5716 [2004-10-06 16:09:04]

Re: [samuraihistory] Oda Nobukatsu/Nobuo

by jckelly108

Oyakata holds session:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:36:04 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote:
>I'm currently re-reading Berry's Hideyoshi, and in it
>she states that Nobukatsu was offered Tokugawa
>Ieyasu's domains in Mikawa and Totomi when Ieyasu took
>the Kanto after the fall of the Hojo, and that
>Nobukatsu declined, leading to his banishment. I
>remember reading elsewhere, though, that he fought on
>the Western side at Sekigahara--am I thinking perhaps
>of Samboshi, or did he somehow get back into
>Hideyoshi's good graces in the 1590's?

Nate -

I'm catching up on some old posts here. You might have found the
information you were looking for, but yes Nobukatsu did make amends
with Hideyoshi. Here's a very brief citation:

 織田家の後継者争いは秀吉の思惑どおりすすみ、織田家は三法師が継ぐこと
になった。しかし、秀吉と勝家の対立が表面化、賤ヶ岳の戦いが起こった。こ
れに呼応して信孝も挙兵。しかし兄の信雄に敗れ、自害する。信雄は、信孝の
遺領と滝川一益の所領を手に入れた。後に家康と組んで小牧・長久手の戦いで
秀吉と戦うということがあったが、秀吉と単独講和し、九州征伐・小田原征伐
にも従軍し、忠実な豊臣の家臣となった。ところが、小田原征伐後、家康の旧
領に移封を命じられたがそれを拒否して秀吉の怒りをかい、領地を没収されて
しまう。やがて許されて秀吉に仕え、剃髪して常真と号した。関ヶ原の戦いに
は西軍に加わって所領を没収されたが、のち家康から所領を与えられた。嫡子
信良は父より先に死んでしまったため、信雄の死後嫡孫信昌が上野国小幡で二
万石の大名となり、のち天童に移り天童藩となった。もうひとつ、信雄の死
後、その五男だった高長が大和国宇陀郡三万石の大名となり、のち二万石に減
らされて丹波国柏原藩となった。

It's from http://www.geocities.jp/kadomakyoujin/rekishi/odake.html

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

[Previous #5505] [Next #5717]

#5717 [2004-10-06 16:28:34]

Re: [samuraihistory] Oda Nobukatsu/Nobuo

by ltdomer98

Jay--

Thanks, that helps. And nice link!

Nate

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

> Oyakata holds session:
> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:36:04 -0700 (PDT), Nate
> Ledbetter���� wrote:
> >I'm currently re-reading Berry's Hideyoshi, and in
> it
> >she states that Nobukatsu was offered Tokugawa
> >Ieyasu's domains in Mikawa and Totomi when Ieyasu
> took
> >the Kanto after the fall of the Hojo, and that
> >Nobukatsu declined, leading to his banishment. I
> >remember reading elsewhere, though, that he fought
> on
> >the Western side at Sekigahara--am I thinking
> perhaps
> >of Samboshi, or did he somehow get back into
> >Hideyoshi's good graces in the 1590's?
>
> Nate -
>
> I'm catching up on some old posts here. You might
> have found the
> information you were looking for, but yes Nobukatsu
> did make amends
> with Hideyoshi. Here's a very brief citation:
>
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
>
��������������������������������������������������������������������
>
����������������������������������������������������������������������
> ������������������������������
>
> It's from
>
http://www.geocities.jp/kadomakyoujin/rekishi/odake.html
>
> --
> Jay Kelly
> oyakata@...
>




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