Honda Toshitugu

Quick question to all who can answear. I have been researching Honda
Toshitugu for a persona and I cannot find any info on him execept the
flag. If anyone has any info at all It would be greatly apreciated.
Thank you to all
Honda

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:12 -0000, Corey J Hudsonさん wrote:

>Quick question to all who can answear. I have been researching Honda
>Toshitugu for a persona and I cannot find any info on him execept the
>flag. If anyone has any info at all It would be greatly apreciated.
>Thank you to all
>Honda

The name doesn't ring a bell for me but there is a 本多俊次. A quick
look on Google shows many promising sites. It appears he was an early
Tokugawa daimyo, of Zeze (part of modern Shiga Prefecture). His father
was Yasutoshi 康俊. What sort of information were you looking for?

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

The only Honda I know of is Honda Tadakatsu who served Tokugawa
Ieyasu all his life, and fought in nearly all of his battles.
But i guess that doesn't help, will keep researching.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "zevlord"
wrote:

> The only Honda I know of is Honda Tadakatsu who served Tokugawa
> Ieyasu all his life, and fought in nearly all of his battles.
> But i guess that doesn't help, will keep researching.

Two branches of the Honda family served Ieyasu - one, as you said,
was led by Honda Tadakatsu. The other was headed by Honda Masanobu,
who wasn't known as a great warrior (due to an illness he suffered
during his youth, I vaguely recall reading that this might have been
polio, but I might be confusing that with Date Masamune), but
Masanobu acted in a diplomatic and administrative role for the
Tokugawa. He was also known as a political schemer, but was very
close to Ieyasu, and later Hidetada. Another fairly vague
recollection I have is that the founder of Honda Motor Corp. was
descended from this branch of the family.

If I may add, this is some information that I had
found on a search in Google .

http://www.uic.edu/cba/ies/2003Papers/Horide.htm

From this the Toshitugu's family open a varity store
in Edo in 1625, and you will see the rest on the link.


Takara
Daimyo of the Samurai Society
http://hstrial-derickson.homestead.com/samurai.html


--- naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "zevlord"
>
> wrote:
> > The only Honda I know of is Honda Tadakatsu who
> served Tokugawa
> > Ieyasu all his life, and fought in nearly all of
> his battles.
> > But i guess that doesn't help, will keep
> researching.
>
> Two branches of the Honda family served Ieyasu -
> one, as you said,
> was led by Honda Tadakatsu. The other was headed by
> Honda Masanobu,
> who wasn't known as a great warrior (due to an
> illness he suffered
> during his youth, I vaguely recall reading that this
> might have been
> polio, but I might be confusing that with Date
> Masamune), but
> Masanobu acted in a diplomatic and administrative
> role for the
> Tokugawa. He was also known as a political schemer,
> but was very
> close to Ieyasu, and later Hidetada. Another fairly
> vague
> recollection I have is that the founder of Honda
> Motor Corp. was
> descended from this branch of the family.
>
>

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--- naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:

> Two branches of the Honda family served Ieyasu -
> one, as you said,
> was led by Honda Tadakatsu. The other was headed by
> Honda Masanobu,
> who wasn't known as a great warrior (due to an
> illness he suffered
> during his youth, I vaguely recall reading that this
> might have been
> polio, but I might be confusing that with Date
> Masamune), but
> Masanobu acted in a diplomatic and administrative
> role for the
> Tokugawa. He was also known as a political schemer,
> but was very
> close to Ieyasu, and later Hidetada. Another fairly
> vague
> recollection I have is that the founder of Honda
> Motor Corp. was
> descended from this branch of the family.

My understanding, though there is a high chance I'm
confused, is that Honda Tadakatsu (�{�������jand Honda
Masanobu (�{�c���M�jwere in fact NOT related, as
evidenced by the different kanji for "Honda" that you
see. What I'm not sure about is the actual kanji for
Masanobu's "Honda"--I've seen it both ways, and not
sure if it's just carelessness on one side or the
other. I'm currently at work and not able to look for
the correct kanji, so if someone could help out?

Either way, I believe the car company is �{�c, so
possibly a relation to Masanobu, but definitely not
one of Tadakatsu.



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Oyakata holds session:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:00:25 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote:
>--- naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:
>> Two branches of the Honda family served Ieyasu -
>> one, as you said,
>> was led by Honda Tadakatsu. The other was headed by
>> Honda Masanobu,
>> who wasn't known as a great warrior (due to an
>> illness he suffered
>> during his youth, I vaguely recall reading that this
>> might have been
>> polio, but I might be confusing that with Date
>> Masamune), but
>> Masanobu acted in a diplomatic and administrative
>> role for the
>> Tokugawa. He was also known as a political schemer,
>> but was very
>> close to Ieyasu, and later Hidetada. Another fairly
>> vague
>> recollection I have is that the founder of Honda
>> Motor Corp. was
>> descended from this branch of the family.
>
>My understanding, though there is a high chance I'm
>confused, is that Honda Tadakatsu (本多忠勝）and Honda
>Masanobu (本田正信）were in fact NOT related, as
>evidenced by the different kanji for "Honda" that you
>see. What I'm not sure about is the actual kanji for
>Masanobu's "Honda"--I've seen it both ways, and not
>sure if it's just carelessness on one side or the
>other. I'm currently at work and not able to look for
>the correct kanji, so if someone could help out?
>
I looked in a fairly abriged but well done biographical dictionary I
have - 日本人名辞典 by コンサイス. It appears that both Tadakatsu
and Masanobu are written 本多, and they seem to be vaguely related
though it's not clear how. See for example
http://tikugo.cool.ne.jp/osaka/yougo/kaisetu/ho-kaisetu.html

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:12 -0000, Corey J Hudson､ｵ､� wrote:

>Quick question to all who can answear. I have been researching Honda
>Toshitugu for a persona and I cannot find any info on him execept the
>flag. If anyone has any info at all It would be greatly apreciated.
>Thank you to all
>Honda

naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "zevlord"
wrote:

> The only Honda I know of is Honda Tadakatsu who served Tokugawa
> Ieyasu all his life, and fought in nearly all of his battles.
> But i guess that doesn't help, will keep researching.

Two branches of the Honda family served Ieyasu - one, as you said,
was led by Honda Tadakatsu. The other was headed by Honda Masanobu,
who wasn't known as a great warrior (due to an illness he suffered
during his youth, I vaguely recall reading that this might have been
polio, but I might be confusing that with Date Masamune), but
Masanobu acted in a diplomatic and administrative role for the
Tokugawa. He was also known as a political schemer, but was very
close to Ieyasu, and later Hidetada. Another fairly vague
recollection I have is that the founder of Honda Motor Corp. was
descended from this branch of the family.


I made my own search and net browsing about this Honda Toshitugu and found nothing about this name. Yeah, you are quite right; there’s nothing about this person but only the flag. Is it not quite strange that the date and place of his birth is unknown but a flag or a banner that usually represent a group or a tribe, a clan and even a national identity is attached to this single person(perhaps a head of the family I’m not really sure), yet nothing is recorded of him? We are familiar that banners or flags are used as a rallying point in a military charge or as a symbol of unity and solidarity. But the identity of the man linked with a flag had been neglected. Quite strange, isn’t it?



Some in our group have already given their share with regard to this persona yet they still admit that the answers they’ve provided are only tentative at best & don’t really hit the target. Mine is also one of them.



Naomasa mentioned already the two Honda’s that served under the Tokugawa Ieasu. So this family may have been well known during the Edo period. There’s another Honda that also lived during this period; his name is Honda Toshiaki (born 1744 in Echiga province,died in Edo 1822). He is a mathematician & a scholar who advocated Western ideas and techniques to be adopted by the Japanese government. He studied the Dutch language that influenced him to become open-minded Japanese pertaining to other cultures especially Western cultures. (During that period Japan was in isolation and the only Western country they have in contact with is Holland or the Dutch). This Toshiaki is also interested in economics and his study of the relationships between food supply and the growth of population led him to the same conclusion as the English economist Thomas Malthus. He advocated many ideas prompting the Japanese government to end the isolation policy of the Tokugawa; improve their coastal defenses and
the imperial expansion of Japan. He proposed many ideas to improve the economic status of Japan by utilizing many Western ideas and techniques.



Now I wonder if this Toshiaki is the same as Toshitugu, (I just hope so. Still I’m aware that I’m standing on a shaky ground.) But the Japanese already had a custom of changing their names so it might be probable that with some sleight of circumstance Toshiaki had been changed to Toshitogu. (Still I’m not very sure). I’m not an expert of the Japanese language but I came to observe that Japanese words especially verbs changes their suffixes to change the form of tenses, sometimes to negate the affirmative word that are used in negative sentences. And Japanese names are not given haphazardly to individuals but that the character of the person or the character he is supposed to posses is closely linked with the appellations that are given to the person. We see this prevalent in many traditional cultures. I’m only speaking in a general sense & claim no any expertise in this subject. Anyone who might have some linguistic background in analyzing this can please confirm or reject this
proposition.



Well, at least; we are headed in the right direction. Honda may have been an illustrious family name. We can trace it back to the Edo period and perhaps even beyond, and that there are families of Hondas who served in the administration of the Shogun. The Honda mentioned by Naomasa whom he barely remembered as the founder of The Honda Motors Corporation is Honda Soichiro who may also have been connected to this family. By checking to the lineage of this family we may arrive to the identification of this Honda Toshitugu.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

well that is usefull info obviously not the one im looking for but
nice to know.Thank you
Honda

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "zevlord" wrote:
> The only Honda I know of is Honda Tadakatsu who served Tokugawa
> Ieyasu all his life, and fought in nearly all of his battles.
> But i guess that doesn't help, will keep researching.

jay
I have checked google and have found dead ends. Im not shure if im
just not putting ther right info in the search. The info on his
father though is verry usefull I my be able to find more info on the
whole family. Thank You
Honda

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:
>
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:12 -0000, Corey J Hudson､ｵ､� wrote:
> >Quick question to all who can answear. I have been researching
Honda
> >Toshitugu for a persona and I cannot find any info on him execept
the
> >flag. If anyone has any info at all It would be greatly apreciated.
> >Thank you to all
> >Honda
>
> The name doesn't ring a bell for me but there is a ﾋﾜﾂｿｽﾓｼ｡. A
quick
> look on Google shows many promising sites. It appears he was an
early
> Tokugawa daimyo, of Zeze (part of modern Shiga Prefecture). His
father
> was Yasutoshi ｹｯｽﾓ. What sort of information were you looking for?
>
> --
> Jay Kelly
> oyakata@O...

very interesting...Thank You
Honda
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "naomasa298"
wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "zevlord"
> wrote:
> > The only Honda I know of is Honda Tadakatsu who served Tokugawa
> > Ieyasu all his life, and fought in nearly all of his battles.
> > But i guess that doesn't help, will keep researching.
>
> Two branches of the Honda family served Ieyasu - one, as you said,
> was led by Honda Tadakatsu. The other was headed by Honda Masanobu,
> who wasn't known as a great warrior (due to an illness he suffered
> during his youth, I vaguely recall reading that this might have

been

> polio, but I might be confusing that with Date Masamune), but
> Masanobu acted in a diplomatic and administrative role for the
> Tokugawa. He was also known as a political schemer, but was very
> close to Ieyasu, and later Hidetada. Another fairly vague
> recollection I have is that the founder of Honda Motor Corp. was
> descended from this branch of the family.

--- "Solomon,jr Bacarizas" <soulmoon888@...>
wrote:

> I made my own search and net browsing about this
> Honda Toshitugu and found nothing about this name.
> Yeah, you are quite right; there�fs nothing about
> this person but only the flag. Is it not quite
> strange that the date and place of his birth is
> unknown but a flag or a banner that usually
> represent a group or a tribe, a clan and even a
> national identity is attached to this single
> person(perhaps a head of the family I�fm not really
> sure), yet nothing is recorded of him? We are
> familiar that banners or flags are used as a
> rallying point in a military charge or as a symbol
> of unity and solidarity. But the identity of the man
> linked with a flag had been neglected. Quite
> strange, isn�ft it?

Well, if it was the person's personal standard
(uma-jirushi), then there is nothing odd about it at
all. Personal standards were used by most well-known
generals as a big "I AM HERE" marker, for both friend
and foe to see. Hideyoshi used the golden gourd (be it
1 or 1,000 is up to which version you read), Ieyasu
used a golden fan, Nobunaga used an umbrella...but we
also have examples where generals used flags. Takeda
Katsuyori used a big square flag with the character ��
"Dai" on it. It's quite possible that this Toshitsugu
had a similiar uma-jirushi to identify his location to
his troops in battle. Of course, the flag description
(Can the original person who asked the question post
the description of the flag, as it may help ID him)
may be a description of the sashimono his retainers
wore, or of a personal sashimono he wore.

> Now I wonder if this Toshiaki is the same as
> Toshitugu, (I just hope so. Still I�fm aware that

I�fm

> standing on a shaky ground.) But the Japanese
> already had a custom of changing their names so it
> might be probable that with some sleight of
> circumstance Toshiaki had been changed to Toshitogu.

Well, it's possible, but I wouldn't say it's probable.
You could conjecture, with some certainty (51%
anyways), that being as they both had the surname
Honda, and the character "Toshi" in their given names,
that they were related. Beyond that, it's simply
conjecture to say he was the same person, or the son,
or father, or brother, or whomever. You can't get that
out of the names.

> (Still I�fm not very sure). I�fm not an expert of

the

> Japanese language but I came to observe that
> Japanese words especially verbs changes their
> suffixes to change the form of tenses, sometimes to
> negate the affirmative word that are used in
> negative sentences.

This doesn't have anything to do with Japanese naming
conventions. You don't "conjugate" names. While it was
common for Japanese of the period to change their
names (Kinoshita Tokichiro -- Kinoshita Hideyoshi --
Hashiba Hideyoshi --Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Matsudaira
Motonobu -- Motoyasu -- Tokugawa Motoyasu -- Tokugawa
Ieyasu being the two most commonly known cases), it
had nothing to do with conjugating or negating prior
meanings.

For a good introduction to naming, try here:

http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/miscellany.html

Now I went to the Japanese google, and tried a few
different combinations of Honda Toshitsugu. Nothing
came up for �{�c�����@or �{������.

Got 81 links for �{���r��, 6 sites for �{�c�r��.

No sites for �{�c�q�� or �{���q��.

�{�c�r�� (Honda Toshitsugu, with the "da" kanji
meaning field):

Held Kameyama Castle in Ise province (Mie Prefecture)
from 1636-1651
http://www.kameyama-mie.jp/~nisi/tiiki2/osiro/osiro1.htm

It looks like he paid for renovations to the Zenkou-ji
temple in Shinano (Nagano) in 1661. Funnily enough,
the background on this site is the Honda mon, but I
thought that was only the Tadakatsu branch.

http://www.mediawars.ne.jp/~zenkouji/histry.html

That seems to be all for him.

Let me wade through the descriptions for the other
Honda ("da" being the character for much, "ooi"), and
I'll post them. This email is getting way too long.





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--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

> --- naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:
> > Two branches of the Honda family served Ieyasu -
> > one, as you said,
> > was led by Honda Tadakatsu. The other was headed
> by
> > Honda Masanobu.

Okay--actually, it appears there were THREE branches.

http://www.page.sannet.ne.jp/h_ohta/rekisi/kamei/honda.htm

All seem to come from a common Honda Sukemasa
(�{������), but branch off at various points.
Tadakatsu is the first famous person in one of the
branches, Masanobu is the start of branch 3, and
branch two is started by Honda Tadatsugu (����), the
grandfather of out Toshitsugu. His father's name was
Yasutsugu (�N��). Toshitsugu was born in 1595 as the
oldest son. In 1621 he inherited Yasutsugu's 35,000
koku fief in Mikawa. In 1636 he moved to Kameyama-jo
in Ise, and his fief increased to 50,000 koku. In 1651
he moved to Omi province, and increased to 70,000
koku. In 1664 he relinquished head of the family to
his 2nd son, Yasu(?) �i�N��) (Someone help me with the
reading..."sho" is the only one I know), and died in
1668.

And that settles my question about the different "da"
kanji also--both Masanobu and Tadakatsu used ��. �{�c,
with the "field" character, however, is the Motor
Company (I checked), so it's doubtful that it's
connected with the Honda family above. Unless, of
course, as is possible, someone changed the character.



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--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

>> I looked in a fairly abriged but well done
> biographical dictionary I
> have - ������������ by ����������. It appears that
> both Tadakatsu
> and Masanobu are written ����, and they seem to be
> vaguely related
> though it's not clear how. See for example
>

http://tikugo.cool.ne.jp/osaka/yougo/kaisetu/ho-kaisetu.html

Distant cousins--we were composing our emails
simultaneously, it would seem.



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--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

>> I looked in a fairly abriged but well done
> biographical dictionary I
> have - ������������ by ����������. It appears that
> both Tadakatsu
> and Masanobu are written ����, and they seem to be
> vaguely related
> though it's not clear how. See for example
>

http://tikugo.cool.ne.jp/osaka/yougo/kaisetu/ho-kaisetu.html

Distant cousins--we were composing our emails
simultaneously, it would seem.



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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> All seem to come from a common Honda Sukemasa
> (–{`ｽ助政), but branch off at various points.
> Tadakatsu is the first famous person in one of the
> branches, Masanobu is the start of branch 3, and
> branch two is started by Honda Tadatsugu ('猿�), the
> grandfather of out Toshitsugu. His father's name was
> Yasutsugu (NŽŸ). Toshitsugu was born in 1595 as the
> oldest son. In 1621 he inherited Yasutsugu's 35,000
> koku fief in Mikawa. In 1636 he moved to Kameyama-jo
> in Ise, and his fief increased to 50,000 koku. In 1651
> he moved to Omi province, and increased to 70,000
> koku. In 1664 he relinquished head of the family to
> his 2nd son, Yasu(?) iN«) (Someone help me with the
> reading..."sho" is the only one I know), and died in
> 1668.

Would that be any relation to the Honda Yasutoshi who is currently
the featured samurai on the Samurai Archives homepage? It would
suggest that Yasutoshi was Toshitsugu's (adopted) uncle, but I'm
getting confused with all these Hondas now...

> And that settles my question about the different "da"
> kanji also--both Masanobu and Tadakatsu used `½. –{"c,
> with the "field" character, however, is the Motor
> Company (I checked), so it's doubtful that it's
> connected with the Honda family above. Unless, of
> course, as is possible, someone changed the character.

It's a very, very vague recollection of mine - I think I only saw
the reference in passing once and that was some time ago, so I could
very easily be wrong about that.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:11:06 -0400, Oyakataさん wrote:

>>
>I looked in a fairly abriged but well done biographical dictionary I
>have - 日本人名辞典 by コンサイス. It appears that both Tadakatsu
>and Masanobu are written 本多, and they seem to be vaguely related
>though it's not clear how. See for example
>http://tikugo.cool.ne.jp/osaka/yougo/kaisetu/ho-kaisetu.html

Ooops. Just for the record and for the archives, it's the コンサイス日
本人名辞典, and the publisher is 三省堂.


--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:57:03 -0000, Corey J Hudsonさん wrote:

>jay
>I have checked google and have found dead ends. Im not shure if im
>just not putting ther right info in the search. The info on his
>father though is verry usefull I my be able to find more info on the
>whole family. Thank You
>Honda

You are getting tons of information on the general Honda family. As
far as Toshitsugu goes, can I ask what in particular drew you to him?
He does seem to have been a fairly minor figure historically speaking,
although he was a Daimyo. Did you read/hear about him somewhere?

Also would information and websites in Japanese be helpful to you?

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

>
>
> Also would information and websites in Japanese be
> helpful to you?

To second Jay's statement, I found 87 pages that
mention him on Google Japan, but you've got to look in
Japanese. I highly doubt you're going to find much in
English. I tried to give you the basics of what I
found in previous emails--if you want more specifics,
ask and I'll see what I can find.

Nate



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--- Shane Suebsahakarn <shanesuebsahakarn@...>
wrote:

> Would that be any relation to the Honda Yasutoshi
> who is currently
> the featured samurai on the Samurai Archives
> homepage? It would
> suggest that Yasutoshi was Toshitsugu's (adopted)
> uncle, but I'm
> getting confused with all these Hondas now...

Yes, though where he is in the mix I'd have to go back
and check.





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I actually stumbled apon his name while searching for common names, I
liked the name and "thought" it would be easy to reasearch him this
way I could wright an acurate persona for myself. I might have to
change my persona name? ha ha

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:57:03 -0000, Corey J Hudson､ｵ､� wrote:
> >jay
> >I have checked google and have found dead ends. Im not shure if im
> >just not putting ther right info in the search. The info on his
> >father though is verry usefull I my be able to find more info on
the
> >whole family. Thank You
> >Honda
>
> You are getting tons of information on the general Honda family. As
> far as Toshitsugu goes, can I ask what in particular drew you to
him?
> He does seem to have been a fairly minor figure historically
speaking,
> although he was a Daimyo. Did you read/hear about him somewhere?
>
> Also would information and websites in Japanese be helpful to you?
>
> --
> Jay Kelly
> oyakata@O...

nate
I am not able to read japanese so thoes sites would not help me at
the moment...I just wanted to know the basics like when he was
born/died family members, son, daughter. If he was at any major
historical happinings, Just stuff like that so I can wright an
accurate persona. Thank You
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> --- Oyakata wrote:
> >
> >
> > Also would information and websites in Japanese be
> > helpful to you?
>
> To second Jay's statement, I found 87 pages that
> mention him on Google Japan, but you've got to look in
> Japanese. I highly doubt you're going to find much in
> English. I tried to give you the basics of what I
> found in previous emails--if you want more specifics,
> ask and I'll see what I can find.
>
> Nate
>
>
>
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--- Corey J Hudson <pvtbooney@...> wrote:

> nate
> I am not able to read japanese so thoes sites would
> not help me at
> the moment...I just wanted to know the basics like
> when he was
> born/died family members, son, daughter. If he was
> at any major
> historical happinings, Just stuff like that so I can
> wright an
> accurate persona. Thank You.

Well, then, my findings should have helped a little. I
gave you born/died, father, and son...I'll see if I
can dig up anything on other kids, etc. As fas as at
any major historical happenings, you could argue he
missed all those--too young for Sekigahara, being born
in 1595. Though he would have been 20 at the siege of
Osaka, so that gives you something there to work with,
possibly.



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