Takeda Shingen's 24 Generals

Hey.
I was just going through the archives looking for an old thread I
wanted to look for (haven't found it yet) and I came up with a question finding
something else. Probably a stupid question, I know, but how did they come to be
called -- and why were they called -- the "famous twenty-four generals of
Takeda Shingen"? What was famous about them? Thanks! :-) Take care. :-)

L8r
Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

They were famous because they were very good generals and helped Takeda Shingen in many battles.Yamamoto Kansuke,Itagaki Nobutaka//......

Edy

----- Original Message -----
From: Eponymous13@...
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:54 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Takeda Shingen's 24 Generals


Hey.
I was just going through the archives looking for an old thread I
wanted to look for (haven't found it yet) and I came up with a question finding
something else. Probably a stupid question, I know, but how did they come to be
called -- and why were they called -- the "famous twenty-four generals of
Takeda Shingen"? What was famous about them? Thanks! :-) Take care. :-)

L8r
Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ah. Thanks, Edy. :-)

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 19 May 2004 14:21:56 +0300, Edward Alexanderさん wrote in message <002001c43d93$b5a20e80$2864a8c0@P428>

>They were famous because they were very good generals and helped Takeda
>Shingen in many battles.Yamamoto Kansuke,Itagaki Nobutaka//......
>
>Edy

Interestingly there is not alot of agreement about who, exactly,
makes up the "24" were. I think I recall reading that there are at
least 50 different names who have been given as members of "the"
24.

Anyway if you look at different sources you'll find different lists.
If you find a book or a website that lists "the" 24 in no uncertain
terms -- it's just a list that that person has decided to use.


--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Interesting.... :-)

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You've got to remember, time is a fluid thing. His "24
Generals" spanned several decades--people die off,
fall out of favor, whatever. His 24 top guys in 1560
were not going to be the same ones in 1573. Especially
when people like Yamamoto Kansuke died in 1561.




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On Sat, 22 May 2004 16:21:50 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote in message <20040522232150.26125.qmail@...>

>You've got to remember, time is a fluid thing. His "24
>Generals" spanned several decades--people die off,
>fall out of favor, whatever. His 24 top guys in 1560
>were not going to be the same ones in 1573. Especially
>when people like Yamamoto Kansuke died in 1561.

Yes that's another good point. All the more reason why it's impossible
to pin down or to list up "the" 24 generals.

Two more reasons: 1) he didn't keep an official roster or anything
like that; 2) the notion of Shingen's 24 generals became popular in
the Edo period, long after Shingen had died.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

ah. ok. :-) thanx. :-)

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I believe that is because history is written by winners and losers accept it. So when Japan became a modern nation alot of samurai customs and history would have been lost.

Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:On Wed, 19 May 2004 14:21:56 +0300, Edward Alexander���� wrote in message <002001c43d93$b5a20e80$2864a8c0@P428>

>They were famous because they were very good generals and helped Takeda
>Shingen in many battles.Yamamoto Kansuke,Itagaki Nobutaka//......
>
>Edy

Interestingly there is not alot of agreement about who, exactly,
makes up the "24" were. I think I recall reading that there are at
least 50 different names who have been given as members of "the"
24.

Anyway if you look at different sources you'll find different lists.
If you find a book or a website that lists "the" 24 in no uncertain
terms -- it's just a list that that person has decided to use.


--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sat, 22 May 2004 06:47:09 -0700 (PDT), Robert Birkerさん wrote in message <20040522134709.51536.qmail@...>

>I believe that is because history is written by winners and losers accept it.

This is certainly true.

>So when Japan became a modern nation alot of samurai customs and history
>would have been lost.

Perhaps you are right. But, I'm not sure that this assumption really
holds up. And of course it depends on what you mean by things like
"modern" and "lost". By modern I'll guess you mean the Meiji
Restoration.

But - that was only roughly 150 years ago - the same timeframe as the
US civil war. Many of us personally may know an elderly person who, wh
en they were young, knew people who were alive during this period.

I personally don't think that so many customs and stories have been
lost to the mists of time during this period of two living memories.

Rather, the situation with Shingen seems less poetic and much more
pedestrian. He himself didn't have a roster of 24 of his top generals.
The notion came up many many years later. So, there's just different
versions of who the 24 really are that were created over time.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...