loyalty and honour

loyalty and honour are two different things. There is no honour in
war.

kentguy212002 wrote:

> There is no honour in
> war.

Bunk.


Tony

One can definitely commits acts of honor, or dishonor, during war.

Robert Burke



In a message dated 3/23/2004 3:34:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> writes:

>kentguy212002 wrote:
>> There is no honour in
>> war.
>
>Bunk.
>
>
>Tony
>
>
>
>
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--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> kentguy212002 wrote:
> > There is no honour in
> > war.
>
> Bunk.
>
>
> Tony

Thanks, Tony.

There is no honor in wanting to start a war. There's
plenty of honor shown by many of those who fight it.
Not every soldier is honorable, just like not every
samurai was honorable. But usually it's not the
soldiers who want to go fight the war. Anyone who
doesn't believe that, I'll take a poll of my friends
and colleagues, and get back to you--I'll ask how many
of them in Iraq and Afghanistan right now are enjoying
themselves, how many wanted to go and be separated
from their families, etc. I doubt I'll get many
positive responses.

Nate Ledbetter
CPT, US Army

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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant"
wrote:

> kentguy212002 wrote:
> > There is no honour in
> > war.
>
> Bunk.
>
>
> Tony

wat oes bunk mean tony?

Have you ever conceived of the notion that wars are fought by some people to
protect even the idea that it would provide their loved ones with some measure
of peace and safety. Is a person not honorable because they would fight for
those they love or beliefs they hold more sacred than the life they possess?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all, hello Nate,

Bringing the topic back to the samurai, perhaps one of Mr. Clausewitz
insights may be helpful in understanding the role of war in ancient Japan:
"war is the continuation of politics by other means". During the warring
states period ("Sengoku Jidai"), japanese politics (understood as the
relationship between the social entities) could be traced back to constant
armed conflict. I seem to have lost track of the source, but I remember
coming across a statement claiming that "during the Sengoku era, specially
under Oda Nobunaga?s blossoming period, the internal diplomatic relations in
Japan almost ceased to be, as the driving force for change were war".

In short, war was a way of life, a basis for assigning meaning to reality.
As such, the concepts of "honour" and "loyalty" were deeply woven amongst
the fabric of war. Perhaps before today?s standarts, "honour" and "loyalty"
have different meanings from what they used to have on those days. Even the
warlords and warmongers were subject to suffering the effects of defeat on
such era.

Also, lack of honour which can be ascribed to a warlord or warmonger does
not entail lack of honour which can be ascribed to soldiers,
brothers-in-arms bound by something far greater than the conflict itself. I
beesech Shakespeare knowledge to make this point: "Those who shed their
blood with me today, on this field, shall be my brother - we, a band of
brothers".

I hope this adds in a positive way to this discussion.

Cheers,

Thiago

-----Mensagem original-----
De: Nate Ledbetter [mailto:ltdomer98@...]
Enviada em: terca-feira, 23 de marco de 2004 20:50
Para: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: Re: [samuraihistory] loyalty and honour



Thanks, Tony.

There is no honor in wanting to start a war. There's
plenty of honor shown by many of those who fight it.
Not every soldier is honorable, just like not every
samurai was honorable. But usually it's not the
soldiers who want to go fight the war. Anyone who
doesn't believe that, I'll take a poll of my friends
and colleagues, and get back to you--I'll ask how many
of them in Iraq and Afghanistan right now are enjoying
themselves, how many wanted to go and be separated
from their families, etc. I doubt I'll get many
positive responses.

Nate Ledbetter
CPT, US Army

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


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Exactly, surely a war fought in defence of one's honour is honourable, however undesirable. Waging war upon those who are perceived enemies or threats could be criticised but wars fought to create one's identity (eg; the Vietnamese against the French, US and Allies, then China, or even the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857 or the Zulu Campaigns against British rule). Expansionist wars are driven by political and ecominc gluttony but wars to create national integrity are honourable, even if the means used to fight them are not. War is always (hopefully) used as a last resort, but for those involved there is honour, not just towards the cause but towards one's comrades.
M.Lorimer

Qpaul3kato@... wrote:
Have you ever conceived of the notion that wars are fought by some people to
protect even the idea that it would provide their loved ones with some measure
of peace and safety. Is a person not honorable because they would fight for
those they love or beliefs they hold more sacred than the life they possess?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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--- Qpaul3kato@... wrote:

> Have you ever conceived of the notion that wars are
> fought by some people to
> protect even the idea that it would provide their
> loved ones with some measure
> of peace and safety. Is a person not honorable
> because they would fight for
> those they love or beliefs they hold more sacred
> than the life they possess?

Oh my god, a coherent thought on the subject. Thank
you.



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Yeah. God forbid those dishonorable allied troops stopped nazi
germany from exterminating six million Jewish people. Jeeze. Why did
they have to go and do that? I sure know the life of me and my
family would be so much better if they hadn't done those
dishonorable things.

And yes, I'm being snappy this time, and I won't applogize. If you
think war is all evil and dishonor... you're an idiot.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "kentguy212002"
wrote:

> loyalty and honour are two different things. There is no honour in
> war.

Hey.
There are such things as "evil" or "dishonourable" wars, this is true.
One thing war always is, and that's UGLY. There's no such thing as a
"beautiful war". That's an oxymoron if ever I heard one. If done for personal
greed and aggrandisement, yes, to start a war is dishonourable. It is not,
however, dishonourable to END a war by any means necessary when the party in the
right is the victor, and it is not wrong to keep a war going until the party in
that right (whatever it may be) is victorious. And I must agree with whomever
said that there are both honourable and dishonourable actions in wartime, on
the battlefield and off. War is another part of life, however ugly it may be,
and there are honourable and dishonourable acts in everyday life.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well said.

I get confused by the anti-military sentiment that many seeemingly
intelligent people have. I've been told by some Japanese people that
there shouldn't be any military in Japan. Not U.S. or Japanese. The
I wonder, so what will happen if you don't have a military? Someone
with a military (probably North Korea) would love to help them
remember history. Where small countries get trampled because they do
not have adequate means to deter a war (or better stated -a
slaughter). Even a simple look south, at Okinawa could show them
that. It had been conquered so many times that you can find
reminants of virtually every asian dynasty on the island. Even the
language changed, the native dialect (hogan) has many borrowed words
from those cultures.

Another question: Why would someone who hates war be interested in a
group discussion about samurai? Samurai-the military class. Having
one of the strongest military histories in the world. Fighting many
more wars than the average society (albiet, mostly against
themselves). While the rest of us are not "Warmongers", I think we
have an appreciation for the historical importance of war.

Brandon

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kyle Segall" <
klancesegall@y...> wrote:

> Yeah. God forbid those dishonorable allied troops stopped nazi
> germany from exterminating six million Jewish people. Jeeze. Why

did

> they have to go and do that? I sure know the life of me and my
> family would be so much better if they hadn't done those
> dishonorable things.
>
> And yes, I'm being snappy this time, and I won't applogize. If you
> think war is all evil and dishonor... you're an idiot.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "kentguy212002"
> wrote:
> > loyalty and honour are two different things. There is no honour

in

> > war.

hey Kyle

Yes I guess your right. I think the problem here is the definition of honour. This word is used frequently but I think that a lot of time it is used in the wrong context. I'm not sure if there is no honour in war or not. Perhaps it is the right hting to do but not honourable. It's hard to say until I have an exact definintion of the word.
THanks
Jonny











Kyle Segall <klancesegall@...> wrote:Yeah. God forbid those dishonorable allied troops stopped nazi
germany from exterminating six million Jewish people. Jeeze. Why did
they have to go and do that? I sure know the life of me and my
family would be so much better if they hadn't done those
dishonorable things.

And yes, I'm being snappy this time, and I won't applogize. If you
think war is all evil and dishonor... you're an idiot.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "kentguy212002"
wrote:

> loyalty and honour are two different things. There is no honour in
> war.

---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

you call someone an idiot because you dont agree with there opinions i spent 8 years fighting in northern ireland i saw many sick things on both sides. the allied troops were doing there duty there is a HUGE difference between duty and honour. And wat about all the us citizens of japanese origin that were herded up and put into camps in california. If uve fought in a war and seen death and wat it does to a person then u may make a worthwhile contribution . idiot



Kyle Segall <klancesegall@...> wrote:
Yeah. God forbid those dishonorable allied troops stopped nazi
germany from exterminating six million Jewish people. Jeeze. Why did
they have to go and do that? I sure know the life of me and my
family would be so much better if they hadn't done those
dishonorable things.

And yes, I'm being snappy this time, and I won't applogize. If you
think war is all evil and dishonor... you're an idiot.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "kentguy212002"
wrote:

> loyalty and honour are two different things. There is no honour in
> war.

---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eponymous13@... wrote:

Hey.
There are such things as "evil" or "dishonourable" wars, this is true.
One thing war always is, and that's UGLY. There's no such thing as a
"beautiful war". That's an oxymoron if ever I heard one. If done for personal
greed and aggrandisement, yes, to start a war is dishonourable. It is not,
however, dishonourable to END a war by any means necessary when the party in the
right is the victor, and it is not wrong to keep a war going until the party in
that right (whatever it may be) is victorious. And I must agree with whomever
said that there are both honourable and dishonourable actions in wartime, on
the battlefield and off. War is another part of life, however ugly it may be,
and there are honourable and dishonourable acts in everyday life.


Fair enough but how do you define a "right"side in a war. Surely that is just a matter of oppinion and if so then there is no correct honour, just how you percieve it?

Jonny



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>From: james wallis <kentguy212002@...>
>you call someone an idiot because you dont agree with there opinions i
>spent 8 years fighting in
>northern ireland i saw many sick things on both sides. the allied troops
>were doing there duty
>there is a HUGE difference between duty and honour. And wat about all the
>us citizens of
>japanese origin that were herded up and put into camps in california. If
>uve fought in a war and seen death and wat it does to a person then u may
>make a worthwhile contribution . idiot

Depending upon one's perspective, while there is a notable difference
between duty and honor, the two generally tend to go hand-in-hand. In
respects to the generalization of Japanese history, being honorable could be
viewed as a part of one's duty, depending upon the historical era and the
region involved.

In respects to the subject of war, it's difficult to determine whether or
not it is for an honorable cause. The 'facts' of all wars have been
notoriously biased in favor of the victor, so they will generally seem to
have had good cause. It comes down to individual leaders and soldiers
rather than a war in general. Should I define WWII by Germany's
extermination of the Jews or by America's use of atomic weaponry? Should
either of those definitions drown out the actions of individuals who acted
honorably? And, with more questions, how do we define honor in war and who
defines it?

There are many more questions raised beyond these few. With each answer,
we're going to find more differing opinions amongst the group members.
This, of course, should help educate each of us in our own way. Honestly, I
don't place much stock in the opinions of those who are going to throw
tantrums and exchange pre-schoolish insults.

Maybe I'm over-stepping my boundaries as a newbie who has been on the list
for less than forty-eight hours, but I joined this group because I have an
interest in japanese culture and history and felt I could learn a bit from
those more educated that I.

-Matt

P.S. Fighting in a war does not provide extra validation to one's opinions
or make them any more worthwhile. Having been a soldier, I, of course, feel
everyone should serve some military service, but I don't use that as a
measurement of overall value of a person. Nor should anyone else.

P.P.S. This is a cultural history group, not a group of primates flinging
feces at one another. I might be new here, but, please, can some of you put
aside aggressive differences and act as if evolution has actually been
beneficial?

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It wasn't duty once the allied troops came across the concentration
camps. It was a rescue mission. I've heard this from the very mouths
of those there.
That's nice that you saw sick things on both sides. Its a very
tragic conflict there, similar to the Israel-Palestine problem. I
don't know which side you were on. So let's use the Holocaust
problem instead. You're a Jewish man who has led a good life. You
served your country (Germany) in peace and war.
You are thrown in a concentration camp. There, you make guns. You
start to smuggle parts of guns and whole guns away. Eventually,
before being transported to Aushwitz, you riot on the train,
ultimately jumping off to freedom.
Or say you're a soldier. You went to war for USA, and you are moving
into Poland. You come across a concentration camp. You never knew
they even existed. You never knew such a thing COULD exist. You free
the prisoners, do what you can for them. You learn there are more
camps, with more men, women, and children. With new motivation and
fervor you drive forward.
Both very dishonorable things, indeed. My two uncles were
respectively monsters. The Nazis should never have been stopped.
Jeeze, you're right. I do apologize.
Oh, and neither men even knew anything about the Japanese camps back
in California.
No, I'm too young to have fought in any wars yet. But it's looking
like I will, eventually.
And being the descendant of both the prisoner and the rescuer in a
war-time situation, I'll make as many worthwhile contributions as I
freaking please.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, james wallis
wrote:

> you call someone an idiot because you dont agree with there

opinions i spent 8 years fighting in northern ireland i saw many
sick things on both sides. the allied troops were doing there duty
there is a HUGE difference between duty and honour. And wat about
all the us citizens of japanese origin that were herded up and put
into camps in california. If uve fought in a war and seen death and
wat it does to a person then u may make a worthwhile contribution .
idiot

>
>
>
> Kyle Segall wrote:
> Yeah. God forbid those dishonorable allied troops stopped nazi
> germany from exterminating six million Jewish people. Jeeze. Why

did

> they have to go and do that? I sure know the life of me and my
> family would be so much better if they hadn't done those
> dishonorable things.
>
> And yes, I'm being snappy this time, and I won't applogize. If you
> think war is all evil and dishonor... you're an idiot.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "kentguy212002"
> wrote:
> > loyalty and honour are two different things. There is no honour

in

> > war.
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
>
>
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Service.

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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Loyalty, Honour ?
Take the book ''Tu passerai per il camino'' (plainly translated ''You'll
pass up thru the chimney''), Mursia edition, 1965.
The 6th picture starting from the end of the picture's section shows 4
people. Standing at right is Aldo Cardini. I can scan and send the
picture with the caption writed by him.
His family sheltered and fed my father during WWII, because my
greatfather completely relied on them, till to the point to leave his
family in their hands to avoid war dangers. The Cardini's family was in
a safe place but they were secretly communist. Notwithstanding this they
helped my greatfather that was sent to fight ''their hero Stalin'' in
Russia.
They understood the ''duty'' and had friendship above any other
consideration.
Aldo Cardini fought nazis and fascists ferociously and bravely as a
partisan, with faith in a future communist Italy. Captured, he was sent
to Mathausen. His extremely strong body survived till to the GI's
arrival, May 5th 1945.
His mother wasn't able to recognize him at his return.
Many years after, when my father was in his last moments for a cancer,
Aldo paid a visit to him. Watching at my father, said to me ''he seems
as me at my return''. And then, crying, ''Stalin have made it too...''.
After 40 years he had accepted the fact both parts had lagers.
He's still alive and healthy, he still wake-up from nightmares.

Stop you to say ''idiot'' to each other.
You are both. And me too.
Never put too deep faith in something related to men.