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"just war"

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#4030 [2004-03-25 13:28:36]

"just war"

by twheels2many

There are various "just war theories" that have been propounded throughout history. They usually have certain things in common, but ultimately, it's impossible to settle it on a philosophical basis. The idea of a "just war" is one of those things that will probably always remain a matter of opinion in the public realm, and which no one will ever prove conclusively to the world. Even among small groups that hold basically the same worldview, there is no real concensus. I myself believe in a particular just war theory, but it certainly isn't convincing to everyone else.

Ultimately, a "just war" is simply choosing a side in the lesser of two evils. If you consider WWII, which we would say was "just" on the part of the Allied forces, as they were defending rather than attacking... millions of innocent, unoffending people (meaning people who did not believe in the aggression and genocide) were killed, both on the Allied side and the Axis side. It certainly wasn't ALL the germans and italians and japanese that were the willing aggressors. Millions were conscripted against their wills who didn't really believe in the legitimacy of the Axis side. And on the Allied side, millions died defending against that aggression. And the Allied forces even sided with Stalin, who was a brutal murderer who killed some 40 million of his own people. Allying with such a man is certainly evil. But the enemy of my enemy is my friend... or so they say... If innocent people are unavoidably killed, then war cannot be "just" in a complete and unqualified sense.

We would generally say war is just only for the defending side, and not for the aggressor. But what if one knows that war is coming, is inevitable, unavoidable, and you're left with the choice of being the aggressor or the one who is first struck? Then it seems that maybe it's okay to be the initial attacker, if war is inevitable. Such was the case for Japan and it's attack on Pearl Harbor... they felt or knew that war was inevitable, so chose to strike first rather than be struck first. We americans always call Japan the bad guys, but from a different perspective, their attack seems a little more acceptable (not that I'm saying they were right!!!)

The question of whether or not there is a just war is a very difficult one. It's not easy to answer. I guess I would end up saying that war is an inevitable evil, an apparently necessary evil to combat other evils. Just? Only in a relative or highly qualified sense. But certainly not completely.

> Eponymous13@... wrote:
>
> Hey.
> There are such things as "evil" or "dishonourable" wars, this is true.
> One thing war always is, and that's UGLY. There's no such thing as a
> "beautiful war". That's an oxymoron if ever I heard one. If done for personal
> greed and aggrandisement, yes, to start a war is dishonourable. It is not,
> however, dishonourable to END a war by any means necessary when the party in the
> right is the victor, and it is not wrong to keep a war going until the party in
> that right (whatever it may be) is victorious. And I must agree with whomever
> said that there are both honourable and dishonourable actions in wartime, on
> the battlefield and off. War is another part of life, however ugly it may be,
> and there are honourable and dishonourable acts in everyday life.
>
>
> Fair enough but how do you define a "right"side in a war. Surely that is just a
> matter of oppinion and if so then there is no correct honour, just how you
> percieve it?
>
> Jonny
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Messenger Now
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Next #4032]

#4032 [2004-03-25 22:46:26]

Re: "just war"

by midorinotoradesu

I have two thing to say about your post.

First, you are correct in many ways. I'd like to comment on the
"just"ness of a war based on the loss of innocent lives. If it is
more "just" to inflict as little loss of innocents as possible then
America's military is moving very close to the over all goal of zero
collateral damage. In other posts, some say that war is ugly. It
is, normally. But I think if you watch our military you can see the
beauty of a "precise war". Wars are no longer gauged in terms of
bridges bombed, buildings destroyed, or people killed. We used to
count how many buildings were destroyed to judge our progress in war.
But we have evolved to a point which we can destroy a single room in
a building. Vastly reducing collateral damage while precisely
hitting our target. I think that war in traditional, trench war
sense is very ugly due to the high number of casualties in such a
war. Being able to stop specific people without hurting anyone else
is a thing of beauty but only if the cause is morally right
(subjective, I know).

This election year President Bush will be critisized for the War on
Terror. I'd hope that people look at the way we fight against
terrorists. They cause mass casualties of innocent people, while we
target and kill only known terrorists and the rogue nation leaders
that support terror. In fact, we aren't out there killing all of
them. We are capturing them. Surely a war against an enemy whose
primary goal is to kill innocent people, is a just war. Reguardless
of weather we find Weapons of Mass Destruction or not.

The fundamental question is killing ever justified? I think it is if
the death of one can prevent the suffering of many. Sometimes you
have to cut the cancer out to save the patient. If you don't, it
will spread until its evil pollutes all of mankind.

Okay the 2nd thing. My understanding is that America wanted Japan to
strike first because America needed the support for the war. We
thought it was someone else's war until we were attacked. So I
really doubt that Japan's attack was a pre-emtive strike. I think
the leaders of that time wanted justice for the Russo-Japanese war
treaties that America had mediated. The promises of monetary
reimbursement to the Japanese were threatening to our politicians.
We were scared that if Japan had that money, they would build a great
military and eventually come after us. We were afraid of a situation
that we ended up creating. I don't think their attack was just in
the sense you mentioned but it was in the sense of retribution.

Brandon
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, golfmandan@a... wrote:
> There are various "just war theories" that have been propounded
throughout history. They usually have certain things in common, but
ultimately, it's impossible to settle it on a philosophical basis.
The idea of a "just war" is one of those things that will probably
always remain a matter of opinion in the public realm, and which no
one will ever prove conclusively to the world. Even among small
groups that hold basically the same worldview, there is no real
concensus. I myself believe in a particular just war theory, but it
certainly isn't convincing to everyone else.
>
> Ultimately, a "just war" is simply choosing a side in the lesser of
two evils. If you consider WWII, which we would say was "just" on the
part of the Allied forces, as they were defending rather than
attacking... millions of innocent, unoffending people (meaning people
who did not believe in the aggression and genocide) were killed, both
on the Allied side and the Axis side. It certainly wasn't ALL the
germans and italians and japanese that were the willing aggressors.
Millions were conscripted against their wills who didn't really
believe in the legitimacy of the Axis side. And on the Allied side,
millions died defending against that aggression. And the Allied
forces even sided with Stalin, who was a brutal murderer who killed
some 40 million of his own people. Allying with such a man is
certainly evil. But the enemy of my enemy is my friend... or so they
say... If innocent people are unavoidably killed, then war cannot be
"just" in a complete and unqualified sense.
>
> We would generally say war is just only for the defending side, and
not for the aggressor. But what if one knows that war is coming, is
inevitable, unavoidable, and you're left with the choice of being the
aggressor or the one who is first struck? Then it seems that maybe
it's okay to be the initial attacker, if war is inevitable. Such was
the case for Japan and it's attack on Pearl Harbor... they felt or
knew that war was inevitable, so chose to strike first rather than be
struck first. We americans always call Japan the bad guys, but from a
different perspective, their attack seems a little more acceptable
(not that I'm saying they were right!!!)
>
> The question of whether or not there is a just war is a very
difficult one. It's not easy to answer. I guess I would end up saying
that war is an inevitable evil, an apparently necessary evil to
combat other evils. Just? Only in a relative or highly qualified
sense. But certainly not completely.
>
> > Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> >
> > Hey.
> > There are such things as "evil" or "dishonourable" wars,
this is true.
> > One thing war always is, and that's UGLY. There's no such thing
as a
> > "beautiful war". That's an oxymoron if ever I heard one. If
done for personal
> > greed and aggrandisement, yes, to start a war is dishonourable.
It is not,
> > however, dishonourable to END a war by any means necessary when
the party in the
> > right is the victor, and it is not wrong to keep a war going
until the party in
> > that right (whatever it may be) is victorious. And I must agree
with whomever
> > said that there are both honourable and dishonourable actions in
wartime, on
> > the battlefield and off. War is another part of life, however
ugly it may be,
> > and there are honourable and dishonourable acts in everyday life.
> >
> >
> > Fair enough but how do you define a "right"side in a war. Surely
that is just a
> > matter of oppinion and if so then there is no correct honour,
just how you
> > percieve it?
> >
> > Jonny
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends
today! Download
> > Messenger Now
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

[Previous #4030] [Next #4033]

#4033 [2004-03-25 22:56:07]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: "just war"

by cepooooo

On Mar 25, 2004, at 7:46 PM, midorinotoradesu wrote:
>
> This election year President Bush will be critisized for the War on
> Terror.  I'd hope that people look at the way we fight against
> terrorists.  They cause mass casualties of innocent people, while we
> target and kill only known terrorists and the rogue nation leaders
> that support terror.  In fact, we aren't out there killing all of
> them.  We are capturing them.  Surely a war against an enemy whose
> primary goal is to kill innocent people, is a just war.  Reguardless
> of weather we find Weapons of Mass Destruction or not. 

Can you please stop campaigning?

This is a mailing lists on medieval Japan.
I suppose it's ok to go a bit OT, but please leave your flag home.

thanks
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #4032] [Next #4035]

#4035 [2004-03-26 02:34:41]

Re: "just war"

by midorinotoradesu

I can't leave my flag at home. This is who I am. It seemed relevant
although the topic has wandered a bit. I have to admit that I am
proud, but I am not campaigning or recruiting. I'm just saying that
war doesn't have to be so ugly anymore. If it is fought the right
way. Battles like Nagashino are no longer standard warfare. War
doesn't have to be a slaughter. It can be executed and finished in a
proportional manner.
In fact, I'm not even sure that I'll vote for Bush in the election.
I am sure I have the right to share my thoughts. Just as much as you
have the right to tell me that you don't like what I've said. And
although there may not be an absolutely clear link to medieval Japan
let me make the indirect link evident. This group discusses the
history of a military class and the wars they fought. I think it is
important to be able to relate history into terms that I can
understand. In my case I don't have any SCA experience or anything
of that nature. The way that I relate to the samurai is through our
modern military and wars in recent history. Being able to comprehend
the links that history may have to our present makes history even
more powerful in terms of revelance. Some people don't like history
because they don't think it has any bearing on who they are. I'm not
one of them and neither are you.
I'm just trying to tie things in so they make sense to me, and maybe
help others make the same link. The topic of conversation was War.
Is it bad, evil, ugly? I guess I could have kept the conversation
abstract, like many others have. I didn't want to be accused of
making statements "that sound good but have no substance".
I really didn't mean to offend you but I won't apologize. It is what
I believe. I hope you don't hate me now. I know that some of what I
brought up is probably closer to you than anyone else on the group.
I do respect your opinions Cepo and I am actually flattered that you
read all the way through my message. Thanks.

Brandon
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Cesare Polenghi
wrote:
>
> Can you please stop campaigning?
>
> This is a mailing lists on medieval Japan.
> I suppose it's ok to go a bit OT, but please leave your flag home.
>
> thanks
> cepo
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #4033] [Next #4042]

#4042 [2004-03-26 08:58:33]

Re: "just war"

by gankona_san

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "midorinotoradesu"
wrote:

> The fundamental question is killing ever justified? I think it is
> if
> the death of one can prevent the suffering of many. Sometimes you
> have to cut the cancer out to save the patient. If you don't, it
> will spread until its evil pollutes all of mankind.

And here opens the philosophical can of worms. In this group, it
would be assumed we should define 'justifiable homocide' by the
historical application of Japan's internal and external conflicts.
It would probably be the best way to answer, especially in the face
of solipsistic and existential mindsets (to name two out of dozens).

Albeit, we all have our own opinions.

>I think
> the leaders of that time wanted justice for the Russo-Japanese war
> treaties that America had mediated.

In part, Japan's assault on Pearl Harbor was motivated the United
States' discontinuation of oil exports to Japan. In effect, you
could postulate America was responsible for the attack on Pearl
Harbor by practicing aggressive isolationism (I define aggressive
isolationism as the act of maintaining a neutral stance in a war
while providing the war-time equipment and supply requirements of the
warring nations). We provided for England, to a degree. We allowed
our soldiers to volunteer for service in a European front in
unofficial capacities. We decreased or ceased importing and
exporting with nations in order to preserve our stockpiles, for the
most part, though, in agreement with you, there were probably more
intricate politics involved.

For Japan, loss of oil imports from us wasn't immediately crippling,
but it was a potential blow to their economic future. Japan was, by
all rights, defending their interests by engaging in war.

I'm babbling a bit and slipping off-topic, but the main point deals
with a comment made on the 'justness' or 'unjustness' of war.
A 'just war', by definition, is one in which the people of a
particular nation feel they were ethically correct in taking
aggressive action. This can apply to both the victorious and the
defeated, depending on the perspective you want to defend. When you
said a war to take out a single individual to preserve the safety of
others was morally just, which view point were you taking? While I
don't agree with their values or politics, the terrorists and their
supporters feel they are right in the eyes of God (Allah, God,
Jehovah, Yahweh, the Kami...however you need to define it. They feel
they are right in the eyes of the/a higher power).

Who determines which side is "right" or "just"?

Er, and I apologize for going a bit OT in this post. Some of the
lines from your original post were stuck in my head and I hadn't
initially intended to reply to them.

-Matt

[Previous #4035] [Next #4043]

#4043 [2004-03-26 14:41:05]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: "just war"

by trokoshea

War is a human affair that cannot strictly fit in the concept of justice.
That would be the case if 2 individuals only were involved (one aggressor
and a victim, the initiator being punished afterwards independantly of the
war results). But a nation is not guilty; that's a failure of our politics
to pretend so, as innocents will pay on both sides be they children, wives,
unwilling conscripts, etc.

Clausewitz famous sentense (please excuse my approximate translation): "War
is the extension of Politic by other means" still apply. The rest is pure
sementic; in the end, only the victor's claim to be on the side of justice
will remain.

Was Takeda Shingen justified in his invasion of Shinano province?
Considering his ambitions, yes. But how about his victims point of view?

Eric

>From: "gankona_san" <forbesmb@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: "just war"
>Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:58:33 -0000
>
>--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "midorinotoradesu"
> wrote:
>
> > The fundamental question is killing ever justified? I think it is
> > if
> > the death of one can prevent the suffering of many. Sometimes you
> > have to cut the cancer out to save the patient. If you don't, it
> > will spread until its evil pollutes all of mankind.
>
>And here opens the philosophical can of worms. In this group, it
>would be assumed we should define 'justifiable homocide' by the
>historical application of Japan's internal and external conflicts.
>It would probably be the best way to answer, especially in the face
>of solipsistic and existential mindsets (to name two out of dozens).
>
>Albeit, we all have our own opinions.
>
> >I think
> > the leaders of that time wanted justice for the Russo-Japanese war
> > treaties that America had mediated.
>
>In part, Japan's assault on Pearl Harbor was motivated the United
>States' discontinuation of oil exports to Japan. In effect, you
>could postulate America was responsible for the attack on Pearl
>Harbor by practicing aggressive isolationism (I define aggressive
>isolationism as the act of maintaining a neutral stance in a war
>while providing the war-time equipment and supply requirements of the
>warring nations). We provided for England, to a degree. We allowed
>our soldiers to volunteer for service in a European front in
>unofficial capacities. We decreased or ceased importing and
>exporting with nations in order to preserve our stockpiles, for the
>most part, though, in agreement with you, there were probably more
>intricate politics involved.
>
>For Japan, loss of oil imports from us wasn't immediately crippling,
>but it was a potential blow to their economic future. Japan was, by
>all rights, defending their interests by engaging in war.
>
>I'm babbling a bit and slipping off-topic, but the main point deals
>with a comment made on the 'justness' or 'unjustness' of war.
>A 'just war', by definition, is one in which the people of a
>particular nation feel they were ethically correct in taking
>aggressive action. This can apply to both the victorious and the
>defeated, depending on the perspective you want to defend. When you
>said a war to take out a single individual to preserve the safety of
>others was morally just, which view point were you taking? While I
>don't agree with their values or politics, the terrorists and their
>supporters feel they are right in the eyes of God (Allah, God,
>Jehovah, Yahweh, the Kami...however you need to define it. They feel
>they are right in the eyes of the/a higher power).
>
>Who determines which side is "right" or "just"?
>
>Er, and I apologize for going a bit OT in this post. Some of the
>lines from your original post were stuck in my head and I hadn't
>initially intended to reply to them.
>
>-Matt
>
>
>
>

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