Rules and restrictions for the samurai in edojidai

Dear members of the list,
please excuse my bad english. As you will see it is not my native language.

I am new to your group and I would like to ask for your support on the following matter.
The other day I had a discussion on the rules and restrictions the samurai faced in daily life concerning the use of swords. The guy I was talking to insisted on the idea, that they were forbidden by law to draw their swords, unless told to by their superiors.
My point was that there were only resctrictions to the drawing of swords on certain occasions like being at the shoguns palace or in the court. I guess there are many more times when it was forbidden but those are the points that instantly came to my mind. I think that apart from that, there were no laws that restricted the drawing or the use of the sword. One example here would be kirisute gomen.
My request to the members of this list would be to name any kind of source that proves my point as I don´t want to rely only on one or two sources I have at hand right now. I can use english, german, french or japanese texts. Especially original sources or their modern day transcriptions would be great (i.e. osadamegaki, buke shohatto). Any help will be appreciated.
Thank you very much for your time
Karsten Helmholz
Germany


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh my god,
I know I risk not getting invited to your next dinnerparty but...dang it
:-), I am male !
Karsten is a male name in Germany (and most other countries you might find
that name in).

Karsten Helmholz
Hamburg

----- Original Message -----
From: <golfmandan@...>
To: <karsten@...>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Rules and restrictions for the samurai in
edojidai


> Dang, girl. Don't apologize for your English. You write English better
than most native English
> speakers (I'm an american)
>
> Sorry I can't help you with your sword question...
> > Dear members of the list,
> > please excuse my bad english. As you will see it is not my native
language.
> >
> > I am new to your group and I would like to ask for your support on the
following
> > matter.
> > The other day I had a discussion on the rules and restrictions the
samurai faced
> > in daily life concerning the use of swords. The guy I was talking to
insisted on
> > the idea, that they were forbidden by law to draw their swords, unless
told to
> > by their superiors.
> > My point was that there were only resctrictions to the drawing of swords
on
> > certain occasions like being at the shoguns palace or in the court. I
guess
> > there are many more times when it was forbidden but those are the points
that
> > instantly came to my mind. I think that apart from that, there were no
laws that
> > restricted the drawing or the use of the sword. One example here would
be
> > kirisute gomen.
> > My request to the members of this list would be to name any kind of
source that
> > proves my point as I don´t want to rely only on one or two sources I
have at
> > hand right now. I can use english, german, french or japanese texts.
Especially
> > original sources or their modern day transcriptions would be great (i.e.
> > osadamegaki, buke shohatto). Any help will be appreciated.
> > Thank you very much for your time
> > Karsten Helmholz
> > Germany
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>

Hi All

hey karsten

I promise not to tell them about you and Dominic when
you stayed at my place last year

ooh er mrs!!!!

LOL


--- Karsten Helmholz <karsten@...>
wrote:
I am male !
Karsten is a male name in Germany (
Karsten Helmholz
Hamburg



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Karsten-
You are quite correct in your thinking, unfortunately I haven't a clue
as to which source might support your idea. I have good references for
everyday life but they to be cursory in their explanations and
definitions. I think you'll need access to a Japanese Public Library to
find what you are looking for.
BTW I think your name is quite manly and virile sounding...
Thomas Carson Helm

Hello,
I am a little confused about this list. Some days ago I posted a question
here and so far only received one answer. Although two others reacted to it,
it was not abut the question. Maybe it was the way I asked, maybe nobody
knows anything to help me. Just in case some of you overread it I give it
anopther try:

The other day I had a discussion on the rules and restrictions the samurai
faced in daily life concerning the use of swords. The guy I was talking to
insisted on the idea, that they were forbidden by law to draw their swords,
unless told to by their superiors.
My point was that there were only resctrictions to the drawing of swords on
certain occasions like being at the shoguns palace or in the court. I guess
there are many more times when it was forbidden but those are the points
that instantly came to my mind. I think that apart from that, there were no
laws that restricted the drawing or the use of the sword. One example here
would be kirisute gomen.
My request to the members of this list would be to name any kind of source
that proves my point as I don´t want to rely only on one or two sources I
have at hand right now. I can use english, german, french or japanese texts.
Especially original sources or their modern day transcriptions would be
great (i.e. osadamegaki, buke shohatto). Any help will be appreciated.


Thank you very much for your time
Karsten Helmholz
Germany

Karsten-
I don't think people are ignoring you, you have to keep in mind that
everyday law in Tokugawa Japan is a B****H to research. The one place I
would look is in the Tokugawa Nikki, this is volumes and volumes of
daily record from the Tokugawa bakufu. If you do not know the year and
date of the item you are looking for there is no way to find it, there
is no index. Even if you have a date you may have to look thru pages
and pages to find your entry. I spent days in the library attempting
this and in the end it wasn't worth the effort. There may be something
at the National Library in Tokyo that will speed a search like this but
you have to be in Tokyo. The information is out there but you really
have to want it...
-t

Karsten Helmholz wrote:

> The other day I had a discussion on the rules and restrictions the samurai
> faced in daily life concerning the use of swords. The guy I was talking to
> insisted on the idea, that they were forbidden by law to draw their swords,
> unless told to by their superiors.
> My point was that there were only resctrictions to the drawing of swords on
> certain occasions like being at the shoguns palace or in the court. I guess
> there are many more times when it was forbidden but those are the points
> that instantly came to my mind. I think that apart from that, there were no
> laws that restricted the drawing or the use of the sword. One example here
> would be kirisute gomen.
> My request to the members of this list would be to name any kind of source
> that proves my point as I don´t want to rely only on one or two sources I
> have at hand right now. I can use english, german, french or japanese texts.
> Especially original sources or their modern day transcriptions would be
> great (i.e. osadamegaki, buke shohatto). Any help will be appreciated.

It's hard to find that sort of thing; you're looking for a negative. (e.g.,
"prove that UFOs don't exist"). Tell your friend to find citations for his point.

Tony

Hello Tony,
thank you for your mail. I see your point. I think I settled the thing for
now anyway. The thread the whole thing took place in got really quiet since
i came up with some minor citations to prove my point.
That of course doens´t mean that I lost the interest in finding material to
have a closer look on jurisdiction and laws concerning those of samurai
status in the edo-period.
So if anyone has further material on that (perhaps a little easier), please
don´t hesitate...

Karsten

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Rules and restrictions for the samurai in
edojidai


> Karsten Helmholz wrote:
>
> > The other day I had a discussion on the rules and restrictions the
samurai
> > faced in daily life concerning the use of swords. The guy I was talking
to
> > insisted on the idea, that they were forbidden by law to draw their
swords,
> > unless told to by their superiors.
> > My point was that there were only resctrictions to the drawing of swords
on
> > certain occasions like being at the shoguns palace or in the court. I
guess
> > there are many more times when it was forbidden but those are the points
> > that instantly came to my mind. I think that apart from that, there were
no
> > laws that restricted the drawing or the use of the sword. One example
here
> > would be kirisute gomen.
> > My request to the members of this list would be to name any kind of
source
> > that proves my point as I don´t want to rely only on one or two sources
I
> > have at hand right now. I can use english, german, french or japanese
texts.
> > Especially original sources or their modern day transcriptions would be
> > great (i.e. osadamegaki, buke shohatto). Any help will be appreciated.
>
> It's hard to find that sort of thing; you're looking for a negative.
(e.g.,
> "prove that UFOs don't exist"). Tell your friend to find citations for his
point.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hi, from your email, I think that looking for sources
in the legal researches done by the Japanese lawers or
scholars might help rather than the historical
research sources.
Although the law structures after the Japanese
modernization are strictly different from those in the
Edo period, the civil or criminal cases relevant to
the drawing or the use of swords in the early moder
time transition period may exist.




Sincerely,





Changsub Lee



--- Karsten Helmholz <karsten@...>
wrote:

> Hello Tony,
> thank you for your mail. I see your point. I think I
> settled the thing for
> now anyway. The thread the whole thing took place in
> got really quiet since
> i came up with some minor citations to prove my
> point.
> That of course doens�t mean that I lost the interest
> in finding material to
> have a closer look on jurisdiction and laws
> concerning those of samurai
> status in the edo-period.
> So if anyone has further material on that (perhaps a
> little easier), please
> don�t hesitate...
>
> Karsten
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
> To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 11:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Rules and restrictions
> for the samurai in
> edojidai
>
>
> > Karsten Helmholz wrote:
> >
> > > The other day I had a discussion on the rules
> and restrictions the
> samurai
> > > faced in daily life concerning the use of
> swords. The guy I was talking
> to
> > > insisted on the idea, that they were forbidden
> by law to draw their
> swords,
> > > unless told to by their superiors.
> > > My point was that there were only resctrictions
> to the drawing of swords
> on
> > > certain occasions like being at the shoguns
> palace or in the court. I
> guess
> > > there are many more times when it was forbidden
> but those are the points
> > > that instantly came to my mind. I think that
> apart from that, there were
> no
> > > laws that restricted the drawing or the use of
> the sword. One example
> here
> > > would be kirisute gomen.
> > > My request to the members of this list would be
> to name any kind of
> source
> > > that proves my point as I don�t want to rely
> only on one or two sources
> I
> > > have at hand right now. I can use english,
> german, french or japanese
> texts.
> > > Especially original sources or their modern day
> transcriptions would be
> > > great (i.e. osadamegaki, buke shohatto). Any
> help will be appreciated.
> >
> > It's hard to find that sort of thing; you're
> looking for a negative.
> (e.g.,
> > "prove that UFOs don't exist"). Tell your friend
> to find citations for his
> point.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store:
> http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>

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