Re: Dead Subjects-II The Zombies return

From: "Kitsuno" <samurai-listowner@...>

>I in no way interpreted what he had written as 'scholarship', simply
>an informal poll that supports the general view that the Japanese
>don't know thier history - just like most everyone else (although
>the Bushido followers in the West tend to think Japan is still the
>land of Bushido and Samurai).
>
>

That's only fair, some of my newly arrived friends wanted to see some of
the real wild west, you know, like in the movies. Another couple was
disappointed that they would have to cross the country to see the Amish.
When I arrived the first time in Japan, I was a bit sad that it was so
Westernized. Too much chanbara ;)

> From: Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...>
>
>Well, yeah, actually that was so. If you read the very informative and
>entertaining autobiography of Fukuzawa Yukichi, when he fist visits the
>US he is really puzzled at finding out how Americans do knowvery little
>about their ancestors.
>

That's me, with no real way of finding out either. The US doesn't have
the records that Europe or Japan has. Possibly because in the US
citizenship is determined by where you are born and your parents
citizenship if you are born outside of the US. Unlike for example
Germany where 4th generation Turks are not citizens and people of German
ancestory can become German citizens quite rapidly. Same issues with
Koreans born in Japan.

>Subject: Re: New Member Arrival
>
>Thanks for the information. I do have a follow up question. What is a Taiga
>drama and where could I rent the one about Saigo Takamori? Is there any
>chance it has English subtitles?
>
>

NHK has a one year long series that usually historical in nature on
Sundays. They are high budget with famous actors. The current one that
just ended this week on NHK and TV Japan was Musashi. if you can rent
it, I recommend it. Hopefully they will come out with a six hour version
like some of the other dramas so people who missed it can see the
highlights.

In San Francisco JTOWN there are a couple of rental stores that have TV
series same with San Jose, Sunnyvale, and Mountain View.

The Santa Clara county library system has about 500 Japanese language
videos, a few that I've seen deal with Meiji, I haven't seen one that
deals directly with Saigo yet. If you live in California, you might be
able to get the videos via interlibrary loan. Otherwise you might have
to mail order from Japan which means no subtitles. A bit of a problem
for me if they have too much of an accent.

Jim Eckman

I've had no problem with genealogical records in the USA. There are plenty of
birth/death/marriage certificates back to about the 1840's or so, as well as
genealogical books that still hold records from even further back. I've been doing
my own genealogy for years, back to 16th century france. My wife (who is
Japanese) is far, far more difficult, and we've only got back as far as her great-
great grandfather who was a samurai and advisor to the lord of the Ikeda clan of
Tottori. Beyond that, I don't think the records exist, or if they do, it is VERY
hard to get them from the hands of the japanese government. I believe the records
exist, but it is next to impossible to get at them.

>>>>That's me, with no real way of finding out either. The US doesn't have

the records that Europe or Japan has. Possibly because in the US
citizenship is determined by where you are born and your parents
citizenship if you are born outside of the US. Unlike for example
Germany where 4th generation Turks are not citizens and people of German
ancestory can become German citizens quite rapidly. Same issues with
Koreans born in Japan.

Hy, sorry to be disturbing you all, but iam have seen a lot of ''i
think...'' in my opinion...'' and so on.
I would like to make clear that iam in no manner against opinion, but i
would just like that subjects that have a real basis, would be discussed
having a source in mind, and when talking about it, mention where( the
autor, work, and so on) the idea, fact or quote were found, for us to have a
more rich and more research based discussion.
I would be most glad if it could come true, for this discussion list, would
something of great value for all users.( this was not meant to the ones who
already post in every mensage where that knowledge was found)
A lot of Thanks.
Thiago



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In that spirit, i have an actual question that will
have some actual sources.
Why was Saigo Takamori's push for war with Korea
rejected? all the sources i read on the matter cover
how determined he was for war (even willing to go and
be 'assassinated' so that war would be justified), and
how it contributed to the Satsuma uprising, but i cant
find out why Okubo Tochimichi and the rest of the
Meiji gov't didnt go for it.

--- Thiago <thiagozanotti@...> wrote:

> Hy, sorry to be disturbing you all, but iam have
> seen a lot of ''i
> think...'' in my opinion...'' and so on.
> I would like to make clear that iam in no manner
> against opinion, but i
> would just like that subjects that have a real
> basis, would be discussed
> having a source in mind, and when talking about it,
> mention where( the
> autor, work, and so on) the idea, fact or quote were
> found, for us to have a
> more rich and more research based discussion.
> I would be most glad if it could come true, for this
> discussion list, would
> something of great value for all users.( this was
> not meant to the ones who
> already post in every mensage where that knowledge
> was found)
> A lot of Thanks.
> Thiago
>
>
>
> --
> POP. Nem parece internet gr�tis.
>
> Seja POP voc� tamb�m!
> Acesse: http://www.pop.com.br/discador.html e baixe
> o POPdiscador.
>

__________________________________
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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/

Somewhat on this subject, I'd like to put together a .txt file of
recommended reading and worthy websites that will go out to the list
when a person subscribes. I'll take the most pertinent sources from
here:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/rec.html
http://www.samurai-archives.com/links.html
But that hasn't been updated in a while, so I was hoping anyone who
has read some worthwhile books recently that don't appear on that
page would feel free to email them to this list with a brief
description (particularly bakumatsu/meiji restoration related).
When I've got enough things together, I'll add that .txt file to the
initial 'subscription' emailings - and update the links and
recommended readings page on the Samurai Archives.

Domo


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Thiago"
wrote:

> Hy, sorry to be disturbing you all, but iam have seen a lot of ''i
> think...'' in my opinion...'' and so on.
> I would like to make clear that iam in no manner against opinion,

but i

> would just like that subjects that have a real basis, would be

discussed

> having a source in mind, and when talking about it, mention where(

the

> autor, work, and so on) the idea, fact or quote were found, for us

to have a

> more rich and more research based discussion.
> I would be most glad if it could come true, for this discussion

list, would

> something of great value for all users.( this was not meant to the

ones who

> already post in every mensage where that knowledge was found)
> A lot of Thanks.
> Thiago
>
>
>
> --
> POP. Nem parece internet grátis.
>
> Seja POP você também!
> Acesse: http://www.pop.com.br/discador.html e baixe o POPdiscador.

I believe It's actually much easier for farmer-families who still
reside in the countryside: at least in the village where I have lived
for a while (Naize, near Ise), they hall have records, usually
beginning from the early 1700s (when they got last names) at home,
right in front of the family altar.
cepo

On Dec 9, 2003, at 7:35 AM, <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> I've had no problem with genealogical records in the USA.  There are
> plenty of
> birth/death/marriage certificates back to about the 1840's or so, as
> well as
> genealogical books that still hold records from even further back.
> I've been doing
> my own genealogy for years, back to 16th century france.  My wife (who
> is
> Japanese) is far, far more difficult, and we've only got back as far
> as her great-
> great grandfather who was a samurai and advisor to the lord of the
> Ikeda clan of
> Tottori.  Beyond that, I don't think the records exist, or if they do,
> it is VERY
> hard to get them from the hands of the japanese government. I believe
> the records
> exist, but it is next to impossible to get at them.
>
>
>
> >>>>That's me, with no real way of finding out either. The US doesn't
> have
> the records that Europe or Japan has. Possibly because in the US
> citizenship is determined by where you are born and your parents
> citizenship if you are born outside of the US. Unlike for example
> Germany where 4th generation Turks are not citizens and people of
> German
> ancestory can become German citizens quite rapidly. Same issues with
> Koreans born in Japan.
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here are the notes I took from "SOLDIERS OF THE SUN, The Rise and Fall of the
Imperial Japanese Army", by Meirion and Susie Harries. Random House, NY,
1991.

p 26: Japan almost invaded Korea in 1873, but the more moderate members
of the government returned from visiting the West and vetoed the idea. Okubo
wanted to devote the governement's limited funds to reform and consolidation at
home.

Bob Burke

In a message dated 12/9/03 7:52:37 PM, klancesegall@... writes:

<< In that spirit, i have an actual question that will
have some actual sources.
Why was Saigo Takamori's push for war with Korea
rejected? all the sources i read on the matter cover
how determined he was for war (even willing to go and
be 'assassinated' so that war would be justified), and
how it contributed to the Satsuma uprising, but i cant
find out why Okubo Tochimichi and the rest of the
Meiji gov't didnt go for it. >>

Well here is my contribution

James Murdoch History of Japan 3 volumes. Old but full of narrative detail
lacking in modern works

F. Brinkley A History of the Japanese People. Like Murdoch old but lots of
details

Marius Jansen The Making of Modern Japan. Covers Azuchi Momoyama to present.

Mikiso Hane Peasants Rebels and Outcasts. The dark side of modern Japan.

Yoshi Kuno Japanese Expansion on the Asiatic Continent. Again old but worth
reading for the historical narrative

J N Rabinovitch Shomonki a translation of the Taira Masakado story

WR Wilson The Hogen Monogatari

Mikael Adolphson The Gates of Power. The warrior monks from Heian to
Nanbokucho

Jeffrey Mass (ed) The Origins of Japanese Medieval World (Nanbokucho period)

WW Farris Heavenly Warriors (the rise of the samurai)

Karl Friday Hired swords (also covers the rise of the samurai)

Ivan Morris Nobililty of Failure (covers several historical figures)

AE Goble Kenmu Godaigos Revolution

KA Grossberg Japans Renaissance (Ashikaga Shogunate)

Eiko Ikegami The Taming of the Samurai (a must read for any samurai wanna
be)

JP Mass the Development of Kamakura Rule

M Shinoda The Founding of the Kamakura Shogunate

C Steenstrup Hojo Shigetoki (Kamakura period)

Paul Varley Imperial restoration in Medieval Japan (all about Kitabatake
Chikafusa should be read together with Chronicle of Gods and Sovereigns)

JP Lamers Japonius Tyrannous the only English bio of Oda Nobunaga

BM Bodart Bailey Kaempfers Japan. an invaluable eyewitness account of
Tokugawa period with copious notes)

M Cooper Rodrigues the Interpreter

CR Boxer The Christian Century in Japan ( a classic)

WG Beasley The Meiji Restoration

AM Craig and DH Shively Personality in Japanese History (bios of many
notable figures from Edo to present)

John Hall Tanuma Okitsugu (great study on the middle Tokugawa period)

Marius Jansen ed Japan in Transition from Tokugawa to Meiji

H Ooms Tokugawa Ideology ( has great take on Nobunaga)

Conrad Totman Politics in the Tokugawa bakufu

Totman the Collapse of the Tokugawa Bakufu

Totman Early Modern Japan (the Tokugawa period)

Louis Frederic Daily Life in Japan at the time of the Samurai 1185-1603

Pierre Souyri The World Turned Upside Down a survey from Heian to Sengoku

Nakaba Yamada Ghenko very dated but the only full length account of the
Mongol Invasions in English

Suzanne Gay Moneylenders of Late Medieval Kyoto (good for a social history
of medieval Japan)

Noel Nouet The Shoguns City ( a chatty history of Edo)

Akira Naito & Kazuo Hozumi Edo the city that became Tokyo (nice narrative
with great illustrations)

Charles Dunn Everyday life in Traditional Japan (Edo period)

Nishiyama Mastunosuke Edo Culture

Lee Butler Emperor and Aristocracy in Japan 1467-1680

Wendell Cole Kyoto in the Momoyama Period

Walter Dening The Life of Toyotomi Hideyoshi (not to be taken too seriously
but a good read)

Stephan Turnbull Samurai Invasion (the only full length account of the
Korean War)

Olof Lidin Tanegashima the first arrival of Europeans in Japan


Its getting late I'll amend this list later.

thanks...
I apreciate your list, ( dont think i expressed myself well) it was when put
an info, here after you put it, you name where you found that info.
Sorry for the trouble
Thiago



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Seja POP você também!
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>
> Why was Saigo Takamori's push for war with Korea
> rejected?

I recommend "Saigo Takamori the man and the myth" by Yates. He
refreshingly suggests that Saigo had little intention of making war on
Korea and was simply doing his best to gain control of the council left
in charge in the absence of Okubo and others.
He argues, I think convincingly, that Saigo had a history of placing
himself in danger to demonstrate his sincerity (makoto), and thereby
winning the trust of his enemies, forged alliances. This may have been
his intent when arguing for a mission to Korea. The Okubo led
government quashed the idea and later trumped up the image of a
"Hawkish, unreasonable" Saigo. Who quit the government not because of
the failure of the Korea mission but because he clearly saw who was now
in control and wanted no part of the administration under his old
friend.
Not ten years after the Seinan no Ran, the emissary to Korea was
killed while on a mission there and this was used as an excuse by that
same Okubo government to annex the peninsula...
-t

Fast to spout new ideas and a little to slow to pony up, here are my
recommendations for reading materials, focused of course on the
Bakumatsu/Meiji period;

Meiji 1868 by Paul Akamatsu (Harper & Row 1972)
Japan Journal 1855-1861 by Henry Huesken (Rutgers 1964)
Choshu in the Meiji Restoration by Albert Craig (Harvard U. Press 1967)
The Culture of the Meiji Period by Daikichi Irokawa (Princeton U. 1985)
Sakamoto Ryoma and the Meiji Restoration by Marius Jansen
(Stanford 1961)
Saigo Takamori "the man behind the myth" by Charles Yates
(Kegan Paul 1995)

A number of good books were already listed such as "The Making of
Modern Japan"and others, there are also a number of "anecdotal"
collections culled from the recollections of foreign residents in
Yokohama and Tokyo as welll as from old newspaper accounts and the like.

Bob to answer your question the Yates book has some pretty detailed
accounts of the seinan no Ran, but nothing like "order of battle",
there are some good books in Japanese but I have yet to find a single
source with that kind of detail. Here's hopin someone on this list can
help us all out...
-t

There is a book in Japanese about the battle of Tabaruzaka (I have a
photocopy of it). There is a map in the front of the book showing the troops of both
sides. I only know this because someone who knew Japanese told me what was on
the map.

If anyone would like to take stab at translating this book (it's a little
over 200 pages) I'd be happy to send them a copy.

Bob Burke


In a message dated 12/14/03 9:47:19 PM, junkmail@... writes:

<< Fast to spout new ideas and a little to slow to pony up, here are my
recommendations for reading materials, focused of course on the
Bakumatsu/Meiji period;

Meiji 1868 by Paul Akamatsu (Harper & Row 1972)
Japan Journal 1855-1861 by Henry Huesken (Rutgers 1964)
Choshu in the Meiji Restoration by Albert Craig (Harvard U. Press 1967)
The Culture of the Meiji Period by Daikichi Irokawa (Princeton U. 1985)
Sakamoto Ryoma and the Meiji Restoration by Marius Jansen
(Stanford 1961)
Saigo Takamori "the man behind the myth" by Charles Yates
(Kegan Paul 1995)

A number of good books were already listed such as "The Making of
Modern Japan"and others, there are also a number of "anecdotal"
collections culled from the recollections of foreign residents in
Yokohama and Tokyo as welll as from old newspaper accounts and the like.

Bob to answer your question the Yates book has some pretty detailed
accounts of the seinan no Ran, but nothing like "order of battle",
there are some good books in Japanese but I have yet to find a single
source with that kind of detail. Here's hopin someone on this list can
help us all out...
-t >>