Japanese Samurai History - Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

#9504 [2007-04-13 09:44:56]

Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by keiman0

--- In animeontv@yahoogroups.com, "keiman0" wrote:

I finally got to see the Tom Cruise/Ken Watanabe flick The last
Samurai
and I was appalled at all of the stupid historical mistakes that were
in it. I recall helping out (with answers) Tom Cruise and some folks
connected with the film a few years before it was released to
theatres.

At least I thought they'd get it to at least resemble Japan after our
Civil War. The film was set in 1876-1877. This was the same time as
Rurouni Kenshin/Samurai X was laid. The animes were more historically
correct than the film was.

Some examples--

(SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVE NOT YET SEEN TLS FILM)

Several Samurai wearing only one katana

A fallen Samurai committing seppukuu with a tante (dagger or knife)
rather than using his katana blade

A reference to a field artillery cannon as a 'howitzer' years before
the howitzer was invented.

Samurai participating in covert (spying) operations. Samurai detested
spying and any other form of deceit. To this end they usually used
Ninjas for this purpose.

Samurai in 1876-1877 still wearing ceremonial armour into battle and
allowing an outsider (Cruise as a cavalry captain) to wear the armour
of the man he killed. I don't recall Kenshin Himura or even Saitoh
Hajime wearing armour on RK or SX.

The battle was laughable. No Samurai will wait for an enemy he is
facing to attack first. Especially when he has the advantage of a
cavalry charge against infantry.

All things considered I think that Richard Chamberlain (The Shogun)
did
a better job as a Samurai than Tom Cruise. Even Chuck Norris would
have
been a better choice.

Ken Watanabe was robbed. He deserved the Best Supporting Actor Oscar
that year. I did hear he won some anime filming achievement awards
earlier this year though.

Well more soon. Kami bless and toodles-K&K

--- End forwarded message ---

[Next #9505]

#9505 [2007-04-13 15:50:49]

Re: [samuraihistory] Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by slavezereo13

it was only a movie...
not a living history documentry if you cant sit back and just enjoy the flick,
i pity you.

keiman0 <KeimanZero@...> wrote:

--- In animeontv@yahoogroups.com, "keiman0" wrote:

I finally got to see the Tom Cruise/Ken Watanabe flick The last
Samurai
and I was appalled at all of the stupid historical mistakes that were
in it. I recall helping out (with answers) Tom Cruise and some folks
connected with the film a few years before it was released to
theatres.

At least I thought they'd get it to at least resemble Japan after our
Civil War. The film was set in 1876-1877. This was the same time as
Rurouni Kenshin/Samurai X was laid. The animes were more historically
correct than the film was.

Some examples--

(SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVE NOT YET SEEN TLS FILM)

Several Samurai wearing only one katana

A fallen Samurai committing seppukuu with a tante (dagger or knife)
rather than using his katana blade

A reference to a field artillery cannon as a 'howitzer' years before
the howitzer was invented.

Samurai participating in covert (spying) operations. Samurai detested
spying and any other form of deceit. To this end they usually used
Ninjas for this purpose.

Samurai in 1876-1877 still wearing ceremonial armour into battle and
allowing an outsider (Cruise as a cavalry captain) to wear the armour
of the man he killed. I don't recall Kenshin Himura or even Saitoh
Hajime wearing armour on RK or SX.

The battle was laughable. No Samurai will wait for an enemy he is
facing to attack first. Especially when he has the advantage of a
cavalry charge against infantry.

All things considered I think that Richard Chamberlain (The Shogun)
did
a better job as a Samurai than Tom Cruise. Even Chuck Norris would
have
been a better choice.

Ken Watanabe was robbed. He deserved the Best Supporting Actor Oscar
that year. I did hear he won some anime filming achievement awards
earlier this year though.

Well more soon. Kami bless and toodles-K&K

--- End forwarded message ---

---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
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[Previous #9504] [Next #9506]

#9506 [2007-04-13 20:23:04]

RE: [samuraihistory] Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by sgt_fury72

Wow you really have to be kidding... First on the part about the howitzer
comment... b/c I do have some expertise when it comes to american weapons.
The part about the american weapons would probablly be the most accurate
stuff in the movie. More than likely the Howitzer in the movie was supposed
to be the Model 1841 Field Howitzer - 12 Pounder. (Hint the 1841 was the
year it went into service with the US army) With them even doing a decent
job of showing them max elevating the guns to get to their maximum range
which was only about 1000 yards. As a matter of fact most Field artillery
personnel would refer them as guns... i.e. a 4 gun or 6 gun battery. Not
as cannons. There is a difference between guns and howitzers in that guns
shot higher velocities and flatter trajectories and had greater range. The
nomenclature of the weapons themselves started to include both terms gun and
howitzer such as the Model 1857 light 12-pdr gun-howitzer and still actually
called that today.
Now about some of the Japanese references you made. I cannot speak at all
on the historical accuracy of the timelines and people involved other than I
know that there was no american involvement (that I am aware of) in the
Satsuma rebellion on which the film is loosely based. Technically speaking
I wasn't aware of any samurai ever carrying more than one Katana. They
carried katana and wakizashi and from what I remember every battle scene in
the movie, all the samurai are wearing 'the two swords'. The man that
commits seppuku is using a wakizashi... not a katana, and samurai would
never use a katana to commit seppuku. It is always was a wakizashi or
tanto, with the tanto being used quite often.

Ninja's... you might as well get ready to be fragged for that one.

For the battle... Calvary with swords vs light infantry with actually
weapons with with rifled barrels and cartridges... i will stand with the
infantry on that one.

On a personal note, I enjoyed the movie. I have seen so many people really
dissect this movie about historical inaccuracies, when I wasn't aware the
movie was suppose to be a documentary. I didn't see in the beginning
credits "based on actual events". How often does a movie get it right
anyways? 'Blackhawk down' was full of inaccuracies, just like 'We were
Soldiers' was as well, and both of those movies were based on actual events.
Movies rarely come close to being right when they are just based on a
novel, much less an actual historical event. I also didn't recall anywhere
throughout the movie Tom Cruise gettin up and saying ' I am the last
samurai'. I don't recall him ever refering to himself as a samurai period.
I actually thought he did a decent job with the swordplay, being a novice
practioner of Iaido myself.

Good luck with the anime.

>From: "keiman0" <KeimanZero@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [samuraihistory] Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:44:56 -0000
>
>--- In animeontv@yahoogroups.com, "keiman0" wrote:
>
>I finally got to see the Tom Cruise/Ken Watanabe flick The last
>Samurai
>and I was appalled at all of the stupid historical mistakes that were
>in it. I recall helping out (with answers) Tom Cruise and some folks
>connected with the film a few years before it was released to
>theatres.
>
>At least I thought they'd get it to at least resemble Japan after our
>Civil War. The film was set in 1876-1877. This was the same time as
>Rurouni Kenshin/Samurai X was laid. The animes were more historically
>correct than the film was.
>
>Some examples--
>
>(SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVE NOT YET SEEN TLS FILM)
>
>
>Several Samurai wearing only one katana
>
>A fallen Samurai committing seppukuu with a tante (dagger or knife)
>rather than using his katana blade
>
>A reference to a field artillery cannon as a 'howitzer' years before
>the howitzer was invented.
>
>Samurai participating in covert (spying) operations. Samurai detested
>spying and any other form of deceit. To this end they usually used
>Ninjas for this purpose.
>
>Samurai in 1876-1877 still wearing ceremonial armour into battle and
>allowing an outsider (Cruise as a cavalry captain) to wear the armour
>of the man he killed. I don't recall Kenshin Himura or even Saitoh
>Hajime wearing armour on RK or SX.
>
>The battle was laughable. No Samurai will wait for an enemy he is
>facing to attack first. Especially when he has the advantage of a
>cavalry charge against infantry.
>
>All things considered I think that Richard Chamberlain (The Shogun)
>did
>a better job as a Samurai than Tom Cruise. Even Chuck Norris would
>have
>been a better choice.
>
>Ken Watanabe was robbed. He deserved the Best Supporting Actor Oscar
>that year. I did hear he won some anime filming achievement awards
>earlier this year though.
>
>Well more soon. Kami bless and toodles-K&K
>
>--- End forwarded message ---
>
>

[Previous #9505] [Next #9507]

#9507 [2007-04-13 20:02:12]

Re: [samuraihistory] Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by draco_ptolemy

Well, I thought that the Wazikashi was actually used for sepeku and that some of the most notable Ninja were also Samurai. I also thought that Ninja used Katans as well since for one, the Ninjto was a post WWII invention for tourists. I also remember something about Ninjito as stage swords for Japanese actors.

- Ptolemy -
Pvt - 76th Independent Battalion

http://www.carlisle-village.com/
http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/

----- Original Message ----
From: keiman0 <KeimanZero@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 11:44:56 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

--- In animeontv@yahoogrou ps.com, "keiman0" wrote:

I finally got to see the Tom Cruise/Ken Watanabe flick The last
Samurai
and I was appalled at all of the stupid historical mistakes that were
in it. I recall helping out (with answers) Tom Cruise and some folks
connected with the film a few years before it was released to
theatres.

At least I thought they'd get it to at least resemble Japan after our
Civil War. The film was set in 1876-1877. This was the same time as
Rurouni Kenshin/Samurai X was laid. The animes were more historically
correct than the film was.

Some examples--

(SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVE NOT YET SEEN TLS FILM)

Several Samurai wearing only one katana

A fallen Samurai committing seppukuu with a tante (dagger or knife)
rather than using his katana blade

A reference to a field artillery cannon as a 'howitzer' years before
the howitzer was invented.

Samurai participating in covert (spying) operations. Samurai detested
spying and any other form of deceit. To this end they usually used
Ninjas for this purpose.

Samurai in 1876-1877 still wearing ceremonial armour into battle and
allowing an outsider (Cruise as a cavalry captain) to wear the armour
of the man he killed. I don't recall Kenshin Himura or even Saitoh
Hajime wearing armour on RK or SX.

The battle was laughable. No Samurai will wait for an enemy he is
facing to attack first. Especially when he has the advantage of a
cavalry charge against infantry.

All things considered I think that Richard Chamberlain (The Shogun)
did
a better job as a Samurai than Tom Cruise. Even Chuck Norris would
have
been a better choice.

Ken Watanabe was robbed. He deserved the Best Supporting Actor Oscar
that year. I did hear he won some anime filming achievement awards
earlier this year though.

Well more soon. Kami bless and toodles-K&K

--- End forwarded message ---

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9508 [2007-04-13 17:37:11]

Re: [samuraihistory] Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by jpellgen

I agree there were historical mistakes, but it was a movie and not intended to be a documentary or re-enactment. I was actually quite pleased with the film despite its short-comings. I felt that it captured several powerful emotions which may have been present at those last moments of samurai existence.

But some of the things you mentioned really don't bother me. For example, the suggestion that an outsider would be taken in the way Tom Cruise's character was... That is obviously part of what makes the story interesting, not particularly anything historical. We know that William Adams was taken in, as you alluded too, but that hardly would make it a common thing. As far as seppuku is concerned, there was really no end to what type of bladed instrument a samurai might have used.

So, while I agree that it isn't the best source of historical information, I still found it to be acceptable from an entertainment point of view. Film is a much more widely accepted form of media than anime, and I am fairly confident that more English-speaking people were willing to watch Tom Cruise than watch Japanimation. Cruise's character was, afterall, a civil war captain... Not necessarily a samurai.

Jonathan P. Ellgen

keiman0 <KeimanZero@...> wrote: --- In animeontv@yahoogroups.com, "keiman0" wrote:

I finally got to see the Tom Cruise/Ken Watanabe flick The last
Samurai
and I was appalled at all of the stupid historical mistakes that were
in it. I recall helping out (with answers) Tom Cruise and some folks
connected with the film a few years before it was released to
theatres.

At least I thought they'd get it to at least resemble Japan after our
Civil War. The film was set in 1876-1877. This was the same time as
Rurouni Kenshin/Samurai X was laid. The animes were more historically
correct than the film was.

Some examples--

(SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVE NOT YET SEEN TLS FILM)

Several Samurai wearing only one katana

A fallen Samurai committing seppukuu with a tante (dagger or knife)
rather than using his katana blade

A reference to a field artillery cannon as a 'howitzer' years before
the howitzer was invented.

Samurai participating in covert (spying) operations. Samurai detested
spying and any other form of deceit. To this end they usually used
Ninjas for this purpose.

Samurai in 1876-1877 still wearing ceremonial armour into battle and
allowing an outsider (Cruise as a cavalry captain) to wear the armour
of the man he killed. I don't recall Kenshin Himura or even Saitoh
Hajime wearing armour on RK or SX.

The battle was laughable. No Samurai will wait for an enemy he is
facing to attack first. Especially when he has the advantage of a
cavalry charge against infantry.

All things considered I think that Richard Chamberlain (The Shogun)
did
a better job as a Samurai than Tom Cruise. Even Chuck Norris would
have
been a better choice.

Ken Watanabe was robbed. He deserved the Best Supporting Actor Oscar
that year. I did hear he won some anime filming achievement awards
earlier this year though.

Well more soon. Kami bless and toodles-K&K

--- End forwarded message ---

---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9509 [2007-04-14 06:59:48]

Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by lost90804

While the 'Last Samurai' is one of the worst movies about Japan ever
made, I feel there are some questionable parts here as well.

> Several Samurai wearing only one katana

You don't have to wear two... you are allowed to wear two, big difference.

> A fallen Samurai committing seppukuu with a tante (dagger or knife)
> rather than using his katana blade

Committing suicide with your aunty is pretty difficult unless you can
put a good edge on her ;) As for weapons used for suicide, samurai have
used things other than swords.

> A reference to a field artillery cannon as a 'howitzer' years before
> the howitzer was invented.

Sorry, this term was in common usage in the Napoleonic wars and earlier.

> Samurai participating in covert (spying) operations. Samurai detested
> spying and any other form of deceit. To this end they usually used
> Ninjas for this purpose.

Please read the FAQ about Bushido nonsense....

> Samurai in 1876-1877 still wearing ceremonial armour into battle and
> allowing an outsider (Cruise as a cavalry captain) to wear the armour
> of the man he killed. I don't recall Kenshin Himura or even Saitoh
> Hajime wearing armour on RK or SX.

ROTFL please don't use anime as a source. I'm not an expert on the Meiji
restoration but one Taiga drama, Shinsengumi, showed some flashy armor
being used in battle. I will note that NHK has modified history in the
past to improve a storyline or a scene. There are some photos from this
period and tons of ukiyo-e that show armor used in this period.

> All things considered I think that Richard Chamberlain (The Shogun)
> did a better job as a Samurai than Tom Cruise. Even Chuck Norris would
> have been a better choice.

You mean the second and third worst movies made about Japan?

Jim

[Previous #9508] [Next #9510]

#9510 [2007-04-14 19:12:57]

RE: [samuraihistory] Shinsengumi graves @ Mibu-dera

by jpellgen

Good day, everyone. I am racking my brain trying to find information about Mibu-dera's Mibuzaka Mound. I figured this might be the best place to ask my question. Which of the Shinsengumi members are buried, interred, etc. on the grounds of Mibu-dera? Obviously, there is a famous bust of Kondo Isami there. Also, I believe Serizawa Kamo and Hirayama Goro are there as well. However, most information seems to say that there are twenty-some monuments/graves here.

Jonathan P. Ellgen

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#9511 [2007-04-15 10:31:32]

Re: [samuraihistory] Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by chunjouonimusha

Well written! Factual and to the point. Nice to see this and without being over critical. Thanks; I would love to see more post like this one. But now I am forgetting what was said about the Ninja in the first place. Old age. Blessing and have a great da

-----Original Message-----
From: burns_inf@...
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:23 PM
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

Wow you really have to be kidding... First on the part about the howitzer
comment... b/c I do have some expertise when it comes to american weapons.
For the battle... Calvary with swords vs light infantry with actually
weapons with with rifled barrels and cartridges... i will stand with the
infantry on that one.

>were more historically
>correct than the film was.
>
>>

________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9515 [2007-04-15 14:57:35]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by dominic_noe

what are some of the best or what is considered the best made samurai movie?

James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote: While the 'Last Samurai' is one of the worst movies about Japan ever
made, I feel there are some questionable parts here as well.

> Several Samurai wearing only one katana

You don't have to wear two... you are allowed to wear two, big difference.

> A fallen Samurai committing seppukuu with a tante (dagger or knife)
> rather than using his katana blade

Committing suicide with your aunty is pretty difficult unless you can
put a good edge on her ;) As for weapons used for suicide, samurai have
used things other than swords.

> A reference to a field artillery cannon as a 'howitzer' years before
> the howitzer was invented.

Sorry, this term was in common usage in the Napoleonic wars and earlier.

> Samurai participating in covert (spying) operations. Samurai detested
> spying and any other form of deceit. To this end they usually used
> Ninjas for this purpose.

Please read the FAQ about Bushido nonsense....

> Samurai in 1876-1877 still wearing ceremonial armour into battle and
> allowing an outsider (Cruise as a cavalry captain) to wear the armour
> of the man he killed. I don't recall Kenshin Himura or even Saitoh
> Hajime wearing armour on RK or SX.

> All things considered I think that Richard Chamberlain (The Shogun)
> did a better job as a Samurai than Tom Cruise. Even Chuck Norris would
> have been a better choice.

You mean the second and third worst movies made about Japan?

Jim

---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9518 [2007-04-15 22:55:10]

Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by kitsuno

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dominic Now
wrote:

>
> what are some of the best or what is considered the best made

samurai movie?

>
>

Akira Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" was voted the Best Samurai Movie Ever
a few months ago at the Samurai Archives Citadel. So that's it.

[Previous #9515] [Next #9520]

#9520 [2007-04-16 07:16:28]

Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by lost90804

For this late period, 'Twilight Samurai' would be interesting to watch.
Much better than that Cruise piece of trash.

Jim Eckman

[Previous #9518] [Next #9521]

#9521 [2007-04-16 01:01:10]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by Barry Thomas

Another one was "Gate of Hell", about the Hougen Incident in 1156. See http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/eaj/hod_57.156.4-5.htm

I believe it was voted the best colour movie of its time - or maybe EVER; I'm not sure about that. Known as JIGOKUMON it was made in 1953.

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kitsuno
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:55 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dominic Now
wrote:
>
> what are some of the best or what is considered the best made
samurai movie?
>
>

Akira Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" was voted the Best Samurai Movie Ever
a few months ago at the Samurai Archives Citadel. So that's it.
.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9520] [Next #9523]

#9523 [2007-04-16 10:10:08]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by jin_gai_guy

Barry, can I get it at Blockbusters?

>From: "Barry Thomas" <warlord@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:01:10 +1000
>
>Another one was "Gate of Hell", about the Hougen Incident in 1156. See
>http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/eaj/hod_57.156.4-5.htm
>
>I believe it was voted the best colour movie of its time - or maybe EVER;
>I'm not sure about that. Known as JIGOKUMON it was made in 1953.
>
>Regards,
>
>Barry Thomas.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kitsuno
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:55 PM
> Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dominic Now
> wrote:
> >
> > what are some of the best or what is considered the best made
> samurai movie?
> >
> >
>
> Akira Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" was voted the Best Samurai Movie Ever
> a few months ago at the Samurai Archives Citadel. So that's it.
> .
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>---
>Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>---
>
>Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
>http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Previous #9521] [Next #9524]

#9524 [2007-04-16 12:47:21]

Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by keecurlee

Guys,Guys,Guys, These peopls are Actors... Some people liked Last, and
some people didn't. Now it's clear that these Actors can't make a
living any other way... Please don't spend your hard earned cash on
this cheep form of a Lie... Kee (Irish) Curlee

>

[Previous #9523] [Next #9525]

#9525 [2007-04-17 10:24:46]

R: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

Hi Paul.

Meet you here too J.

Great mailing list this one.

Cheers.

Carlo

Da: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
Per conto di Paul Martin
Inviato: lunedì 16 aprile 2007 19.10
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

Barry, can I get it at Blockbusters?

>From: "Barry Thomas" <warlord@...
>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com

>To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:01:10 +1000
>
>Another one was "Gate of Hell", about the Hougen Incident in 1156. See
>http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/eaj/hod_57.156.4-5.htm
>
>I believe it was voted the best colour movie of its time - or maybe EVER;
>I'm not sure about that. Known as JIGOKUMON it was made in 1953.
>
>Regards,
>
>Barry Thomas.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kitsuno
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com

> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:55 PM
> Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com

, Dominic Now

> wrote:
> >
> > what are some of the best or what is considered the best made
> samurai movie?
> >
> >
>
> Akira Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" was voted the Best Samurai Movie Ever
> a few months ago at the Samurai Archives Citadel. So that's it.
> .
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>---
>Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>---
>
>Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
>http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9524] [Next #9526]

#9526 [2007-04-17 08:48:51]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by phillipmichael1861

Well said. People have got to remember that these films are for entertainment purposes only. I for one can not stand Tom Cruse and it took every ounce of concentration to ignore his part in the film because I was only interested in the Martial Arts techniques. If one wants to know the true story of that period, pick up a book (sometimes you can't really rely on the internet for research). As a Civil War reenactor, I picked out several of flaws but that didn't stop me from learning a thing or two about sword techinques. By the way, I waited till that flick came out on AMC. I refuse to waste any of my hard earned money on a Tom Cruse movie ~_^

Phil in Norfolk Virginia

keecurlee <threekeys@...> wrote:
Guys,Guys,Guys, These peopls are Actors... Some people liked Last, and
some people didn't. Now it's clear that these Actors can't make a
living any other way... Please don't spend your hard earned cash on
this cheep form of a Lie... Kee (Irish) Curlee

>

[Previous #9525] [Next #9528]

#9528 [2007-04-17 18:05:09]

RE: [samuraihistory] Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by angushaynes

> A fallen Samurai committing seppukuu with a tante (dagger or knife)
> rather than using his katana blade

Samurai historically commited seppuku in numerous different ways.

> Samurai participating in covert (spying) operations. Samurai detested

> spying and any other form of deceit. To this end they usually used
> Ninjas for this purpose.

Could not be more incorrect. Ninja were often samurai. Me thinks you've
been watching too many ninja movies and mistaking them for history.

> Samurai in 1876-1877 still wearing ceremonial armour into battle and
> allowing an outsider (Cruise as a cavalry captain) to wear the armour

> of the man he killed. I don't recall Kenshin Himura or even Saitoh
> Hajime wearing armour on RK or SX.

You are correct that samurai didn't wear armour into battle at this
time, but using Kenshin as a source is like me saying that pig-men flew
planes in the First World War because Porco Rosso did.

> The battle was laughable. No Samurai will wait for an enemy he is
> facing to attack first. Especially when he has the advantage of a
> cavalry charge against infantry.

Plenty would and did. Every single instance of a siege is an example of
this.

-AngusH

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[Previous #9526] [Next #9530]

#9530 [2007-04-18 04:52:28]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by ninaboal21044

I studied kendo for ten years (until my health took me out). I'm not sure that watching films is the best place to learn sword skills or any other martial arts skills. Do you practice in a school with a sensei? If so, you can ask your sensei about "The Last Samurai" and whatever sword tactics might be included within. If you don't practice in a school with a sensei, I would try and find a well-reputed school and sign up. This is a much better place to learn sword techniques rather than try and pick them up from films -- which after all are choreographed.

Nina aka Wave Tossed

________________________________

From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phillip Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:49 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

Well said. People have got to remember that these films are for entertainment purposes only. I for one can not stand Tom Cruse and it took every ounce of concentration to ignore his part in the film because I was only interested in the Martial Arts techniques. If one wants to know the true story of that period, pick up a book (sometimes you can't really rely on the internet for research). As a Civil War reenactor, I picked out several of flaws but that didn't stop me from learning a thing or two about sword techinques. By the way, I waited till that flick came out on AMC. I refuse to waste any of my hard earned money on a Tom Cruse movie ~_^

Phil in Norfolk Virginia

keecurlee <threekeys@... > wrote:
Guys,Guys,Guys, These peopls are Actors... Some people liked Last, and
some people didn't. Now it's clear that these Actors can't make a
living any other way... Please don't spend your hard earned cash on
this cheep form of a Lie... Kee (Irish) Curlee

>

[Previous #9528] [Next #9531]

#9531 [2007-04-18 06:50:22]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by phillipmichael1861

Hi Nina,
I completely understand watching "The Last Samurai" or any other Martial Arts film is NOT the best resources for learning any type of Martial Arts or watching any period movie to learn about history for that matter. I am curious about that time period in Japanese history but for learning the actual history, I pick up a book. As for learning Martial Arts, I study Aikido at the Aikido of Virginia Beach Dojo www.aikido-of-virginia-beach.com and my sensei is very outstanding in his weapons training. During the one sceen where they were training in the field, I noticed a few familar bokken suburi techniques I have learned in the dojo. It is very important not to rely on movies to learn. They are for entertainment only and there is two reasons I can think of for not using movies for research regarding Martial Arts, one is you will look like an fool and two, you can do yourself and others serious injury by showing off your "moves" you learned from the Karate Kid.

Phil in Norfolk

"Boal, Nina" <Nina.Boal@...> wrote:
I studied kendo for ten years (until my health took me out). I'm not sure that watching films is the best place to learn sword skills or any other martial arts skills. Do you practice in a school with a sensei? If so, you can ask your sensei about "The Last Samurai" and whatever sword tactics might be included within. If you don't practice in a school with a sensei, I would try and find a well-reputed school and sign up. This is a much better place to learn sword techniques rather than try and pick them up from films -- which after all are choreographed.

Nina aka Wave Tossed

________________________________

From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phillip Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:49 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

Well said. People have got to remember that these films are for entertainment purposes only. I for one can not stand Tom Cruse and it took every ounce of concentration to ignore his part in the film because I was only interested in the Martial Arts techniques. If one wants to know the true story of that period, pick up a book (sometimes you can't really rely on the internet for research). As a Civil War reenactor, I picked out several of flaws but that didn't stop me from learning a thing or two about sword techinques. By the way, I waited till that flick came out on AMC. I refuse to waste any of my hard earned money on a Tom Cruse movie ~_^

Phil in Norfolk Virginia

keecurlee <threekeys@... > wrote:
Guys,Guys,Guys, These peopls are Actors... Some people liked Last, and
some people didn't. Now it's clear that these Actors can't make a
living any other way... Please don't spend your hard earned cash on
this cheep form of a Lie... Kee (Irish) Curlee

>

Phil

"True Victory is Self Victory"
O Sensei Morihei Ueshiba 1883-1969

---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Phil

"True Victory is Self Victory"
O Sensei Morihei Ueshiba 1883-1969

---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9530] [Next #9538]

#9538 [2007-04-23 02:34:29]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by jore lehtinen

i agreed with mr.eckman.and recommended to watch hole trilogy(hidden blade
etc)..regards jore

>From: James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 07:16:28 -0700
>
>For this late period, 'Twilight Samurai' would be interesting to watch.
>Much better than that Cruise piece of trash.
>
>Jim Eckman

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Messenger - kivuttoman viestinnän puolestapuhuja.
http://www.communicationevolved.com/fi-fi/

[Previous #9531] [Next #9545]

#9545 [2007-04-24 19:28:12]

Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by lost90804

I would like to thank Mr. Lehtinen for cluing me into the fact that it
is a trilogy. Hidden Blade:Kakushi ken oni no tsume is available in the
US. It does not look like the third one, Bushi no ichibun, is here yet.

I've seen most of the old ones, so any recommendations for new ones is
greatly appreciated!

Japan TV in the US sometimes plays modern samurai films, some are pretty
fun. Maybe we will see a mini-chanbara boom again.

Jim

[Previous #9538] [Next #9548]

#9548 [2007-04-28 01:48:10]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by jore lehtinen

Mr Eckman ask about new jidai-geki films.my personal favourite is
sen-no-rikyu,starring mifune toshiro.the film Roningai is also
interesting.about recent ones i think after the rain is one of the best.and
if you want to see kamakura era armour etc check out the Gojoe...regards
Jore

>From: James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:28:12 -0700
>
>I would like to thank Mr. Lehtinen for cluing me into the fact that it
>is a trilogy. Hidden Blade:Kakushi ken oni no tsume is available in the
>US. It does not look like the third one, Bushi no ichibun, is here yet.
>
>I've seen most of the old ones, so any recommendations for new ones is
>greatly appreciated!
>
>Japan TV in the US sometimes plays modern samurai films, some are pretty
>fun. Maybe we will see a mini-chanbara boom again.
>
>Jim

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Messenger - kivuttoman viestinnän puolestapuhuja.
http://www.communicationevolved.com/fi-fi/

[Previous #9545] [Next #9564]

#9564 [2007-05-22 21:53:55]

Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by joemaps273

The movie is, of course, loosely based on the Satsuma rebellion of
1877. Although the story in the film is significantly different from
what actually transpired in 1877, I found a few themes to be common.
First, the origin of the Satsuma rebellion was in the dissatisfaction
of the samurai at the ending of their way of life. Secondly, as with
Ken Watanabe in the movie, Saigo Takamori did indeed have deep
respect for the emperor. Finally, the failure of Saigo's rebellion
was partially due to the fact that he was fighting in an old Japanese
style, while the Meiji government had westernized their methods.
However, it was not really western weapons versus Japanese weapons on
the battlefields of the Satsuma rebellion, since both sides used
guns. Rather, the Meiji government made much better use of western-
style logistics (reinforcements) and communications (the telegraph).
The Meiji government was able to get Saigo bogged down in Kumamoto,
while they sent in reinforcements and eventually overwhelmed him at
Tabaru-zaka.

Joe

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, jonathan ellgen
wrote:

>
> I agree there were historical mistakes, but it was a movie and not

intended to be a documentary or re-enactment. I was actually quite
pleased with the film despite its short-comings. I felt that it
captured several powerful emotions which may have been present at
those last moments of samurai existence.

>
> But some of the things you mentioned really don't bother me. For

example, the suggestion that an outsider would be taken in the way
Tom Cruise's character was... That is obviously part of what makes
the story interesting, not particularly anything historical. We know
that William Adams was taken in, as you alluded too, but that hardly
would make it a common thing. As far as seppuku is concerned, there
was really no end to what type of bladed instrument a samurai might
have used.

>
> So, while I agree that it isn't the best source of historical

information, I still found it to be acceptable from an entertainment
point of view. Film is a much more widely accepted form of media than
anime, and I am fairly confident that more English-speaking people
were willing to watch Tom Cruise than watch Japanimation. Cruise's
character was, afterall, a civil war captain... Not necessarily a
samurai.

>
> Jonathan P. Ellgen

[Previous #9548] [Next #9565]

#9565 [2007-05-23 13:05:09]

Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by kitsuno

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "joemaps273" wrote:

>
> Rather, the Meiji government made much better use of western-
> style logistics (reinforcements) and communications (the telegraph).
> The Meiji government was able to get Saigo bogged down in Kumamoto,
> while they sent in reinforcements and eventually overwhelmed him at
> Tabaru-zaka.

Ironically, Saigo Takamori's brother Saigo Tsugumichi handled the
logistics of supplies and munitions from Tokyo for the Meiji
government, which was a big factor in the victory by the imperial
army. (Takamori and Tsugumichi had a falling out over Takamori's
proposed plan for the invasion of Korea about 4 years prior.) He
wanted to join the actual battle against his brother, but the
government declined his request.

[Previous #9564] [Next #9566]

#9566 [2007-05-23 15:42:06]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by takayama_hara

With regard to the actual samurai and their "personna"
in this movie, could someone tell me what they found
wrong with it, please?

I enjoyed the movie a great deal and while I could
tell most of the the scenes of battle might have been
BS, I enjoyed the character Katsumoto.

I have to leave the room when TC throws his sword in
the final battle.

Off topic:
In another thread I saw a reference to a "hand yari"
and someone was wondering what this was... the movie
about the 47 Ronin with Tashiro Mifune (spaced the
name, sorry)has a couple great examples of them.

____________________________________________________________________________________Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow

[Previous #9565] [Next #9567]

#9567 [2007-05-23 18:46:05]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by soshuju

On May 22, 2007, at 9:53 PM, joemaps273 wrote:

> The movie is, of course, loosely based on the Satsuma rebellion of
> 1877. Although the story in the film is significantly different from
> what actually transpired in 1877, I found a few themes to be common.
> First, the origin of the Satsuma rebellion was in the dissatisfaction
> of the samurai at the ending of their way of life. Secondly, as with
> Ken Watanabe in the movie, Saigo Takamori did indeed have deep
> respect for the emperor. Finally, the failure of Saigo's rebellion
> was partially due to the fact that he was fighting in an old Japanese
> style, while the Meiji government had westernized their methods.
> However, it was not really western weapons versus Japanese weapons on
> the battlefields of the Satsuma rebellion, since both sides used
> guns. Rather, the Meiji government made much better use of western-
> style logistics (reinforcements) and communications (the telegraph).
> The Meiji government was able to get Saigo bogged down in Kumamoto,
> while they sent in reinforcements and eventually overwhelmed him at
> Tabaru-zaka.
>

Joe et al -
We are talking about the modern period (post 1868) and we are still
talking about that silly movie, but I hope the moderators will
indulge us a bit longer. The Saga and other earlier rebellions were
about the loss of privileges, really the loss of income as the
government cut back on the stipends they paid out to disenfranchised
bushi. Satsumas rebellion was started by students of the shigakko
(most had never had Samurai status) who were convinced the central
government meant to assassinate Saigo. They were of course joined by
ex-army types that had come home with Saigo and others with a grudge
against the new leadership. What I find interesting is that Saigo
(and the new Meiji police forces) knew that if he were to reach
Honshu he would have of course been joined by all those out of work
samurai and would have been an unstoppable force. He could have
easily skirted Kumamoto-jo or even taken an Eastern route to Dazaifu
but chose not to.
This begs the question why did he insist on investing Kumamoto?
Tabaru-zaka was not the decisive battle but it was 17 days of hard
fighting where he spent much of his force. Was his loyalty to the
Emperor, whom he raised from a boy, so strong that he intentionally
fought a battle of attrition rather than risk actually threatening
him and the government Saigo himself had set up for him to lead?
Samurai pigheadedness is hardly an explanation for his siege of the
castle.
I agree that once they paused at Kumamoto the outcome was inevitable
for the very reasons you cite above; Government logistics and
communications. I would point out though that the fierce fighting at
Tabaru-zaka is where the image of sword versus gun comes from.
Because of the heavy weather and the thick bamboo groves there the
government guns and numbers were ineffective. So much so that a
special Batto-tai was formed of Aizu men who went in to fight sword
to sword against the rebels. The weather broke and new artillery was
brought to bear on the area breaking the Satsuma hold on the road,
but it was only weeks later that the army broke up and all that was
left was to chase Saigo and his little band back to Shiroyama.
What drives me mad about this film and others is how Hollywood
always feeds us entertaining tripe like this even though the real
history is so much more interesting. And this story has so many great
stories within it it is just amazing that they seem to have missed
them all!
Makes me want to throw my sword at someone...
-t

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9566] [Next #9568]

#9568 [2007-05-23 23:49:39]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by Asanga Chameera

I saw on TV ,that there were statues made in honer of those samurai's . Is it the last samurai that fat short person with a dog beside him ?

Best Regards

Chameera

_____

From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of joemaps273
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:54 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

The movie is, of course, loosely based on the Satsuma rebellion of
1877. Although the story in the film is significantly different from
what actually transpired in 1877, I found a few themes to be common.
First, the origin of the Satsuma rebellion was in the dissatisfaction
of the samurai at the ending of their way of life. Secondly, as with
Ken Watanabe in the movie, Saigo Takamori did indeed have deep
respect for the emperor. Finally, the failure of Saigo's rebellion
was partially due to the fact that he was fighting in an old Japanese
style, while the Meiji government had westernized their methods.
However, it was not really western weapons versus Japanese weapons on
the battlefields of the Satsuma rebellion, since both sides used
guns. Rather, the Meiji government made much better use of western-
style logistics (reinforcements) and communications (the telegraph).
The Meiji government was able to get Saigo bogged down in Kumamoto,
while they sent in reinforcements and eventually overwhelmed him at
Tabaru-zaka.

Joe

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com , jonathan ellgen
wrote:

>
> I agree there were historical mistakes, but it was a movie and not

>
> But some of the things you mentioned really don't bother me. For

>
> So, while I agree that it isn't the best source of historical

>
> Jonathan P. Ellgen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9567] [Next #9569]

#9569 [2007-05-24 00:32:56]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by jore lehtinen

"hand yari"...sounds like short(man size) spear(?)...Jore

>From: Michael Wood <takayama_hara@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:42:06 -0700 (PDT)
>
>With regard to the actual samurai and their "personna"
>in this movie, could someone tell me what they found
>wrong with it, please?
>
>I enjoyed the movie a great deal and while I could
>tell most of the the scenes of battle might have been
>BS, I enjoyed the character Katsumoto.
>
>I have to leave the room when TC throws his sword in
>the final battle.
>
>Off topic:
>In another thread I saw a reference to a "hand yari"
>and someone was wondering what this was... the movie
>about the 47 Ronin with Tashiro Mifune (spaced the
>name, sorry)has a couple great examples of them.
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________Boardwalk
>for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's
>economy) at Yahoo! Games.
>http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow

_________________________________________________________________
Ota käyttöön Windows Live Messenger ja sano kyllä kivuttomalle viestinnälle!
http://www.communicationevolved.com/fi-fi/

[Previous #9568] [Next #9570]

#9570 [2007-05-24 00:39:15]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by jore lehtinen

I have to agreed with Mr.Helm.hollywood spoil many films,real history is
much more interesting...anyway,take it easy with the sword Mr.H...regards
Jore

>From: Tom Helm <toryu@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:46:05 -0700
>
>
>On May 22, 2007, at 9:53 PM, joemaps273 wrote:
>
> > The movie is, of course, loosely based on the Satsuma rebellion of
> > 1877. Although the story in the film is significantly different from
> > what actually transpired in 1877, I found a few themes to be common.
> > First, the origin of the Satsuma rebellion was in the dissatisfaction
> > of the samurai at the ending of their way of life. Secondly, as with
> > Ken Watanabe in the movie, Saigo Takamori did indeed have deep
> > respect for the emperor. Finally, the failure of Saigo's rebellion
> > was partially due to the fact that he was fighting in an old Japanese
> > style, while the Meiji government had westernized their methods.
> > However, it was not really western weapons versus Japanese weapons on
> > the battlefields of the Satsuma rebellion, since both sides used
> > guns. Rather, the Meiji government made much better use of western-
> > style logistics (reinforcements) and communications (the telegraph).
> > The Meiji government was able to get Saigo bogged down in Kumamoto,
> > while they sent in reinforcements and eventually overwhelmed him at
> > Tabaru-zaka.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Joe et al -
> We are talking about the modern period (post 1868) and we are still
>talking about that silly movie, but I hope the moderators will
>indulge us a bit longer. The Saga and other earlier rebellions were
>about the loss of privileges, really the loss of income as the
>government cut back on the stipends they paid out to disenfranchised
>bushi. Satsumas rebellion was started by students of the shigakko
>(most had never had Samurai status) who were convinced the central
>government meant to assassinate Saigo. They were of course joined by
>ex-army types that had come home with Saigo and others with a grudge
>against the new leadership. What I find interesting is that Saigo
>(and the new Meiji police forces) knew that if he were to reach
>Honshu he would have of course been joined by all those out of work
>samurai and would have been an unstoppable force. He could have
>easily skirted Kumamoto-jo or even taken an Eastern route to Dazaifu
>but chose not to.
> This begs the question why did he insist on investing Kumamoto?
>Tabaru-zaka was not the decisive battle but it was 17 days of hard
>fighting where he spent much of his force. Was his loyalty to the
>Emperor, whom he raised from a boy, so strong that he intentionally
>fought a battle of attrition rather than risk actually threatening
>him and the government Saigo himself had set up for him to lead?
>Samurai pigheadedness is hardly an explanation for his siege of the
>castle.
> I agree that once they paused at Kumamoto the outcome was inevitable
>for the very reasons you cite above; Government logistics and
>communications. I would point out though that the fierce fighting at
>Tabaru-zaka is where the image of sword versus gun comes from.
>Because of the heavy weather and the thick bamboo groves there the
>government guns and numbers were ineffective. So much so that a
>special Batto-tai was formed of Aizu men who went in to fight sword
>to sword against the rebels. The weather broke and new artillery was
>brought to bear on the area breaking the Satsuma hold on the road,
>but it was only weeks later that the army broke up and all that was
>left was to chase Saigo and his little band back to Shiroyama.
> What drives me mad about this film and others is how Hollywood
>always feeds us entertaining tripe like this even though the real
>history is so much more interesting. And this story has so many great
>stories within it it is just amazing that they seem to have missed
>them all!
>Makes me want to throw my sword at someone...
>-t
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Messenger - kivuttoman viestinnän puolestapuhuja.
http://www.communicationevolved.com/fi-fi/

[Previous #9569] [Next #9571]

#9571 [2007-05-24 12:53:21]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by takayama_hara

--- jore lehtinen <tengu64@...> wrote:

> "hand yari"...sounds like short(man size)
> spear(?)...Jore
>

It is a short yari, the movie is Chushingura and one
of the 47 Loyal Retainers uses a "yari te" in the
final battle scene.

____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news

[Previous #9570] [Next #9572]

#9572 [2007-05-24 17:00:06]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by joel.cain

The statue of that "fat short person with a dog beside him" is indeed Saigo Takamori, the real figure for which the character Katsumoto of the movie The Last Samurai is based upon.

Asanga Chameera <chameera@...> wrote:
I saw on TV ,that there were statues made in honer of those samurai's . Is it the last samurai that fat short person with a dog beside him ?

Best Regards

Chameera

_____

From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of joemaps273
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:54 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

The movie is, of course, loosely based on the Satsuma rebellion of
1877. Although the story in the film is significantly different from
what actually transpired in 1877, I found a few themes to be common.
First, the origin of the Satsuma rebellion was in the dissatisfaction
of the samurai at the ending of their way of life. Secondly, as with
Ken Watanabe in the movie, Saigo Takamori did indeed have deep
respect for the emperor. Finally, the failure of Saigo's rebellion
was partially due to the fact that he was fighting in an old Japanese
style, while the Meiji government had westernized their methods.
However, it was not really western weapons versus Japanese weapons on
the battlefields of the Satsuma rebellion, since both sides used
guns. Rather, the Meiji government made much better use of western-
style logistics (reinforcements) and communications (the telegraph).
The Meiji government was able to get Saigo bogged down in Kumamoto,
while they sent in reinforcements and eventually overwhelmed him at
Tabaru-zaka.

Joe

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com , jonathan ellgen
wrote:

>
> I agree there were historical mistakes, but it was a movie and not

>
> But some of the things you mentioned really don't bother me. For

>
> So, while I agree that it isn't the best source of historical

>
> Jonathan P. Ellgen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9573 [2007-05-24 20:53:24]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by soshuju

On May 24, 2007, at 5:00 PM, Cain wrote:

> The statue of that "fat short person with a dog beside him" is
> indeed Saigo Takamori, the real figure for which the character
> Katsumoto of the movie The Last Samurai is based upon.
>
>
>
>

To the Japanese of course he was tall and burly...
-t

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9574 [2007-05-25 01:53:27]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?

by jore lehtinen

samurai with dog...saigo takamoris statue..

>From: "Asanga Chameera" <chameera@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 12:49:39 +0600
>
>I saw on TV ,that there were statues made in honer of those samurai's .
>Is it the last samurai that fat short person with a dog beside him ?
>
>
>
>Best Regards
>
>Chameera
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of joemaps273
>Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:54 AM
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Fwd: History vs The Last Samurai?
>
>
>
>The movie is, of course, loosely based on the Satsuma rebellion of
>1877. Although the story in the film is significantly different from
>what actually transpired in 1877, I found a few themes to be common.
>First, the origin of the Satsuma rebellion was in the dissatisfaction
>of the samurai at the ending of their way of life. Secondly, as with
>Ken Watanabe in the movie, Saigo Takamori did indeed have deep
>respect for the emperor. Finally, the failure of Saigo's rebellion
>was partially due to the fact that he was fighting in an old Japanese
>style, while the Meiji government had westernized their methods.
>However, it was not really western weapons versus Japanese weapons on
>the battlefields of the Satsuma rebellion, since both sides used
>guns. Rather, the Meiji government made much better use of western-
>style logistics (reinforcements) and communications (the telegraph).
>The Meiji government was able to get Saigo bogged down in Kumamoto,
>while they sent in reinforcements and eventually overwhelmed him at
>Tabaru-zaka.
>
>Joe
>
>--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> , jonathan ellgen
>wrote:
> >
> > I agree there were historical mistakes, but it was a movie and not
>intended to be a documentary or re-enactment. I was actually quite
>pleased with the film despite its short-comings. I felt that it
>captured several powerful emotions which may have been present at
>those last moments of samurai existence.
> >
> > But some of the things you mentioned really don't bother me. For
>example, the suggestion that an outsider would be taken in the way
>Tom Cruise's character was... That is obviously part of what makes
>the story interesting, not particularly anything historical. We know
>that William Adams was taken in, as you alluded too, but that hardly
>would make it a common thing. As far as seppuku is concerned, there
>was really no end to what type of bladed instrument a samurai might
>have used.
> >
> > So, while I agree that it isn't the best source of historical
>information, I still found it to be acceptable from an entertainment
>point of view. Film is a much more widely accepted form of media than
>anime, and I am fairly confident that more English-speaking people
>were willing to watch Tom Cruise than watch Japanimation. Cruise's
>character was, afterall, a civil war captain... Not necessarily a
>samurai.
> >
> > Jonathan P. Ellgen
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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