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Samurai challenge during battle

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#9158 [2006-10-29 11:07:21]

Samurai challenge during battle

by Keiswa

Could someone help me with this? I know when 2 samurai battled, they did this by riding out to mid field, stating their name and lineage, then attaching. How would this be stated?
"I am Sanematsu Yoshihide of the clan Minamoto from the Satsuma Provinces---(now I'm lost. Does he say en guard or what?? Or is this anywhere near what he'd say?")
Thanks in advance
Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson
www.keiswanson.com
THE WORDS OF THE PITCHER, Genesis Press
A DRUMMER'S BEAT TO MEND, Genesis Press
EBONY EYES, Genesis Press 11/06
THE SANEMATSU SAGA, Zumaya Publications
THE SEABIRD OF SANEMATSU, Amazon.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Next #9160]

#9160 [2006-10-31 16:38:10]

RE: [samuraihistory] Samurai challenge during battle

by angushaynes

>Could someone help me with this? I know when 2 samurai battled, they
did this by riding out to mid field, stating their
>name and lineage, then attaching. How would this be stated?
>"I am Sanematsu Yoshihide of the clan Minamoto from the Satsuma
Provinces---(now I'm lost. Does he say en guard
>or what?? Or is this anywhere near what he'd say?")
>Thanks in advance
>Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson

If the war tales like the Heike Monogatari and the Taiheiki are to be
believed, then a samurai might ride ahead of the army, announce his name
and pedigree, and challenge someone from the opposing army to attack
him. One example from Helen Craig McCullough's translation of the
Taiheiki, where two warriors race ahead of their own army to be first in
to battle:

"We are the lay monk Hitomi Shiro On'a, aged seventy-two, a resident of
the province of Musashi, and Homma Kuro Sukesada, aged thirty-six, a
resident of the province of Sagami, who since leaving Kamakura have been
resolved to perish in battle ahead of our comrades! Let those who are
self-confident come forth to observe the degree of our skill!"

Challenges like this were an attempt to earn recognition on the
battlefield, which was the best way for a samurai to be rewarded for his
service. If the samurai died the rewards earned by his valour would be
passed on to his family, which was the intent of the two warriors above.

Acts like this would likely have been far more usual in Kamakura &
Muromachi (12th through 15th C.) times when armies were smaller and
battles more intimate than in Sengoku times when armies consisted mainly
of ashigaru foot soldiers acting in mass formations.

-AngusH

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#9164 [2006-10-31 18:01:49]

Re: Samurai challenge during battle

by kitsuno

> Acts like this would likely have been far more usual in Kamakura &
> Muromachi (12th through 15th C.) times when armies were smaller and
> battles more intimate than in Sengoku times when armies consisted mainly
> of ashigaru foot soldiers acting in mass formations.
>
> -AngusH
>

I'd have to do some research, but I seem to remember that this
practice proved such a liability in fighting the mongols in the 13th
century, that this was largely abandoned after that. There are
occasional acts of this type recorded even into the Sengoku, but by
then it was probably so rare as to be a novelty. Yamanaka Shikanosuke
was challenged by Shinagawa Daisen during a seige of Gassan-toda
castle, and were allowed to fight it out in front of the two armies.
This was a little different, as they didn't march out and declare
names, I think the challenge to Shikanosuke was specific. But similar
concept.

[Previous #9160] [Next #9165]

#9165 [2006-10-31 18:33:50]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai challenge during battle

by cepooooo

I was sending a similar answer...

Apparently when the Mongols landed on some beach in Kyushu, some
samurai went forward and said something like...:
"I am Goro Takanomuro , aged forty-five, a resident of the
provin..........."
And that was it.
I assume that the Japanese warriors, being practical people, probably
discarded such intro, at last when fighting against the Mongols.

Cepo




On Oct 31, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Kitsuno wrote:
>
> I'd have to do some research, but I seem to remember that this
> practice proved such a liability in fighting the mongols in the 13th
> century, that this was largely abandoned after that. There are
> occasional acts of this type recorded even into the Sengoku, but by
> then it was probably so rare as to be a novelty. Yamanaka Shikanosuke
> was challenged by Shinagawa Daisen during a seige of Gassan-toda
> castle, and were allowed to fight it out in front of the two armies.
> This was a little different, as they didn't march out and declare
> names, I think the challenge to Shikanosuke was specific. But similar
> concept.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9167 [2006-11-01 04:40:23]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai challenge during battle

by Keiswa

Thanks for taking the time to respond. My work takes place in 1520, kinda hard to find info on this period. Could be why I chose it! Anyway, the 'battle' I have my hero in is not really a fight but a duel, first blood ends the challenge. It's done before the Court so I think the stating of lineage would be called for.
Again I appreciate everyone's time.
Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson
www.keiswanson.com
THE WORDS OF THE PITCHER, Genesis Press
A DRUMMER'S BEAT TO MEND, Genesis Press
EBONY EYES, Genesis Press 11/06
THE SANEMATSU SAGA, Zumaya Publications
THE SEABIRD OF SANEMATSU, Amazon.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Kitsuno
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 7:01 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai challenge during battle



> Acts like this would likely have been far more usual in Kamakura &
> Muromachi (12th through 15th C.) times when armies were smaller and
> battles more intimate than in Sengoku times when armies consisted mainly
> of ashigaru foot soldiers acting in mass formations.
>
> -AngusH
>

I'd have to do some research, but I seem to remember that this
practice proved such a liability in fighting the mongols in the 13th
century, that this was largely abandoned after that. There are
occasional acts of this type recorded even into the Sengoku, but by
then it was probably so rare as to be a novelty. Yamanaka Shikanosuke
was challenged by Shinagawa Daisen during a seige of Gassan-toda
castle, and were allowed to fight it out in front of the two armies.
This was a little different, as they didn't march out and declare
names, I think the challenge to Shikanosuke was specific. But similar
concept.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9168 [2006-11-01 04:41:26]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai challenge during battle

by Keiswa

AngusH,
Thanks for your efforts also. It gives me plenty of info to work with.
Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson
www.keiswanson.com
THE WORDS OF THE PITCHER, Genesis Press
A DRUMMER'S BEAT TO MEND, Genesis Press
EBONY EYES, Genesis Press 11/06
THE SANEMATSU SAGA, Zumaya Publications
THE SEABIRD OF SANEMATSU, Amazon.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Haynes, A (Angus)
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Samurai challenge during battle


>Could someone help me with this? I know when 2 samurai battled, they
did this by riding out to mid field, stating their
>name and lineage, then attaching. How would this be stated?
>"I am Sanematsu Yoshihide of the clan Minamoto from the Satsuma
Provinces---(now I'm lost. Does he say en guard
>or what?? Or is this anywhere near what he'd say?")
>Thanks in advance
>Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson

If the war tales like the Heike Monogatari and the Taiheiki are to be
believed, then a samurai might ride ahead of the army, announce his name
and pedigree, and challenge someone from the opposing army to attack
him. One example from Helen Craig McCullough's translation of the
Taiheiki, where two warriors race ahead of their own army to be first in
to battle:

"We are the lay monk Hitomi Shiro On'a, aged seventy-two, a resident of
the province of Musashi, and Homma Kuro Sukesada, aged thirty-six, a
resident of the province of Sagami, who since leaving Kamakura have been
resolved to perish in battle ahead of our comrades! Let those who are
self-confident come forth to observe the degree of our skill!"

Challenges like this were an attempt to earn recognition on the
battlefield, which was the best way for a samurai to be rewarded for his
service. If the samurai died the rewards earned by his valour would be
passed on to his family, which was the intent of the two warriors above.

Acts like this would likely have been far more usual in Kamakura &
Muromachi (12th through 15th C.) times when armies were smaller and
battles more intimate than in Sengoku times when armies consisted mainly
of ashigaru foot soldiers acting in mass formations.

-AngusH

[Previous #9167] [Next #9169]

#9169 [2006-11-01 04:40:49]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai challenge during battle

by Keiswa

Cepo,
Thanks to you too.
Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson
www.keiswanson.com
THE WORDS OF THE PITCHER, Genesis Press
A DRUMMER'S BEAT TO MEND, Genesis Press
EBONY EYES, Genesis Press 11/06
THE SANEMATSU SAGA, Zumaya Publications
THE SEABIRD OF SANEMATSU, Amazon.com
----- Original Message -----
From: cepo
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai challenge during battle


I was sending a similar answer...

Apparently when the Mongols landed on some beach in Kyushu, some
samurai went forward and said something like...:
"I am Goro Takanomuro , aged forty-five, a resident of the
provin..........."
And that was it.
I assume that the Japanese warriors, being practical people, probably
discarded such intro, at last when fighting against the Mongols.

Cepo

On Oct 31, 2006, at 3:01 PM, Kitsuno wrote:
>
> I'd have to do some research, but I seem to remember that this
> practice proved such a liability in fighting the mongols in the 13th
> century, that this was largely abandoned after that. There are
> occasional acts of this type recorded even into the Sengoku, but by
> then it was probably so rare as to be a novelty. Yamanaka Shikanosuke
> was challenged by Shinagawa Daisen during a seige of Gassan-toda
> castle, and were allowed to fight it out in front of the two armies.
> This was a little different, as they didn't march out and declare
> names, I think the challenge to Shikanosuke was specific. But similar
> concept.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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