SWORD SETS

In a three blade samuari sword set what are each of the swords called and what is their function.

Thanks

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good morning.
In a kake in that fashion usually the first blade from
up to down is the shortest one and is called "Tanto".
A small utilitarian knife, more a tool than a weapon.
But it does not mean that it could not be used as the
second. The second blade a medium sized one, was
called "Wakisashi", it was a small katana made as
companion for the "Katana" which is the third one and
the longest in this fashion.
A double sword kake: whit a Wakisashi and a Katana, is
called a "Daisho" ( also when a person is using this,
it is said he is wearing a daisho ) in a Daisho
swords are called Daito and Shoto respectively.
Best regards.


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Not sure if I 100% agree with that. A daisho on a katana-kake is normally
with the katana on the top and the wakizashi at the bottom, to make it
easier to pick up the katana in an emergency, in those days when these
things mattered. Sometimes the shoto of a daisho is a tanto and this is more
usual if the daito is a tachi, but it can be a tanto with a katana. How
swords were displayed on their racks in a samurai household would indicate
to any visitor the state of preparedness of the occupants and so it was an
important part of sword etiquette. Also I would certainly not describe a
tanto as "a small utilitarian knife more of a tool than a weapon". Tanto are
made in the same manner as other swords and are as magnificent as any other
blades, just smaller. They are certainly classed as a weapon and count
National Treasures amongst their number, some of which date back to the
Kamakura period and even earlier.
I may be misunderstanding the original question, but I have never, as far as
I can remember seen, 3 matching swords other than in the realm of cheap
modern reproductions.
I hope this does not contradict the samurai history subject of this list,
but I felt the points worth noting.
Regards
Clive Sinclaire

----- Original Message -----
From: "federico trejos" <federicotrejos@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] SWORD SETS


>
> Good morning.
> In a kake in that fashion usually the first blade from
> up to down is the shortest one and is called "Tanto".
> A small utilitarian knife, more a tool than a weapon.
> But it does not mean that it could not be used as the
> second. The second blade a medium sized one, was
> called "Wakisashi", it was a small katana made as
> companion for the "Katana" which is the third one and
> the longest in this fashion.
> A double sword kake: whit a Wakisashi and a Katana, is
> called a "Daisho" ( also when a person is using this,
> it is said he is wearing a daisho ) in a Daisho
> swords are called Daito and Shoto respectively.
> Best regards.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Correo Yahoo!
> Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis!
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>
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I agree with Clive totally. As a collector of Samurai swords for the past 38 years, I have to say that he is correct.
Bob Corella
www.kenshindojo.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Clive,

> A daisho on a katana-kake is
> normally
> with the katana on the top and the wakizashi at the bottom, to make
> it
> easier to pick up the katana in an emergency, in those days when
> these
> things mattered.

Was there any customary significance to the weapons orientation when
displayed on a kake? I was under the impression that the tsuka was
placed at the left, so as to be seen in the same orientation as when
worn?

It occurred to me that if a katana/tachi were mounted the other way
around, it could again in an emergency be more easily taken up with the
left hand while being drawn with the right, or is this just being
fanciful?

Yours

Dean
***
Dean Wayland
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Dean
You are correct in this assumption. Normally when swords are "at rest" on a
katana-kake they would be placed with the omote (front) side of the blade
facing out, this means the kurikata is visible. Were it to be placed the
other way, ie easier to pick up as you describe, it would indicate a state
of high alert.
Also interesting are the various positions in which a katana is placed on
the floor at one's side when kneeling in front of another.
You mention tachi, which are slightly different. A tachi, if on an ordinary
katana-kake is place with the cutting edge downwards so that it also
simulates the position when worn. More often and more correctly, a tachi is
placed on a different type of rack so that it can stand vertically, with the
tsuka (handle) resting in a small indentation on the base. It is incorrect
as is often seen, for the tsuka to be at the top when placed on a proper
tachi stand.
Regards
Clive

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Wayland" <dean@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] SWORD SETS


> Hi Clive,
>
> > A daisho on a katana-kake is
> > normally
> > with the katana on the top and the wakizashi at the bottom, to make
> > it
> > easier to pick up the katana in an emergency, in those days when
> > these
> > things mattered.
>
> Was there any customary significance to the weapons orientation when
> displayed on a kake? I was under the impression that the tsuka was
> placed at the left, so as to be seen in the same orientation as when
> worn?
>
> It occurred to me that if a katana/tachi were mounted the other way
> around, it could again in an emergency be more easily taken up with the
> left hand while being drawn with the right, or is this just being
> fanciful?
>
> Yours
>
> Dean
> ***
> Dean Wayland
> http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Clive,

Thanks for the feedback. You also wrote:

> Also interesting are the various positions in which a katana is
> placed on
> the floor at one's side when kneeling in front of another.

I can hazard a few guesses at what would be involved, but I would be
very interested to hear what would have been the correct practise in
this circumstance.

Also on the topic of mounting tachi on a tachi-kake, you wrote:

> It is
> incorrect
> as is often seen, for the tsuka to be at the top when placed on a
> proper
> tachi stand.

When I owned but one sword, my other half bought me a tachi-kake to
display it. I was aware at the time of how to correctly use it, but out
of curiosity I experimented with mounting it the wrong way round, to see
if I could deduce the reasoning behind the practise. I found two things,
(a) the end of the saya (kojiri?) would try to escape from the small
indentation in the base, and (b) due to the point of balance being
somewhat higher than it should be, the sword was easily dislodged.
Needless to say ever since, I've always done as you previously outlined.

Incidentally would I be right in thinking that a large weapon like a no-
dachi/ou-dachi would also be displayed on a tachi-kake?

Yours

Dean

***
Dean Wayland

as mr Sinclaire said,you can often see a sword in "tachi-stand" tsuka up.i
think its the same matter when katana is dissplayd tsuka on right.if
something happened the page behind the stand can present the sword in a way
its easily crapped.same thing on a road(daimyos etc conwoy).it should be
tsuka down when person is alone etc...tengu64

>From: "Clive Sinclaire" <CSinclaire@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] SWORD SETS
>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:03:22 +0100
>
>Dean
>You are correct in this assumption. Normally when swords are "at rest" on a
>katana-kake they would be placed with the omote (front) side of the blade
>facing out, this means the kurikata is visible. Were it to be placed the
>other way, ie easier to pick up as you describe, it would indicate a state
>of high alert.
>Also interesting are the various positions in which a katana is placed on
>the floor at one's side when kneeling in front of another.
>You mention tachi, which are slightly different. A tachi, if on an ordinary
>katana-kake is place with the cutting edge downwards so that it also
>simulates the position when worn. More often and more correctly, a tachi is
>placed on a different type of rack so that it can stand vertically, with
>the
>tsuka (handle) resting in a small indentation on the base. It is incorrect
>as is often seen, for the tsuka to be at the top when placed on a proper
>tachi stand.
>Regards
>Clive
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dean Wayland" <dean@...>
>To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 2:59 PM
>Subject: [samuraihistory] SWORD SETS
>
>
> > Hi Clive,
> >
> > > A daisho on a katana-kake is
> > > normally
> > > with the katana on the top and the wakizashi at the bottom, to make
> > > it
> > > easier to pick up the katana in an emergency, in those days when
> > > these
> > > things mattered.
> >
> > Was there any customary significance to the weapons orientation when
> > displayed on a kake? I was under the impression that the tsuka was
> > placed at the left, so as to be seen in the same orientation as when
> > worn?
> >
> > It occurred to me that if a katana/tachi were mounted the other way
> > around, it could again in an emergency be more easily taken up with the
> > left hand while being drawn with the right, or is this just being
> > fanciful?
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > Dean
> > ***
> > Dean Wayland
> > http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---
>Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>---
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Dean
Once again I crave the indulgence of the moderator if this is considered a
little off-topic for this list, however....
Basically if sitting in seiza opposite another, it was customary to remove
the katana from the obi and place it at your side, although, on entering
another residence, the sword might be given to a page or servant for safe
storage to be collected when leaving. It was OK to keep the shoto in the obi
as a samurai would never be totally unarmed. Dependant on which side the
long sword was placed indicated the state of preparedness. Basically, if
removed from the obi and placed on your right-hand side, this was taken as
being relaxed and no threat. If on the left hand side, then a greater level
of preparedness was indicated, but precisely how it was placed, upped the
level. For instance if the back of the sword was closest to your left side,
this was less intimidating than if the curve was away from you as, in this
circumstance, it would be unnecessary to turn the sword before drawing it.
This could seem quite a threatening position. Further, if the left thumb had
pushed the tsuba so that the habaki (collar) was clear of the koi-guchi
(scabbard mouth), then this was most threatening and meant that the owner
was fully anticipating that he would need to draw his sword! If he then
raised up onto his toes, coming out of the "safe" seiza position, he was
about to fight.
Sword etiquette was very important to the samurai as usually nobody wanted
accidentally to become involved in situations where blood was shed. It is
probable that the rules of etiquette were refined and structured in the
Togugawa period where the only action likely to occur was in a one-on-one
situation, but here I speculate somewhat. Rules of sword etiquette still
applies today although the bloody consequences of poor etiquette are less
likely, however, good etiquette shows the difference between the educated
gentlemen and the less well educated. It is unlikely that you will be able
to view important swords in Japan (on a hands-on basis) such as National
Treasures etc.unless you have already shown that you fall into the "educated
gentleman" catagory.
As for No-dachi, I guess they can do whatever they want!! although more
seriously, I prefer a katana-kake as oversized swords are less well balanced
on a tachi-kake.
Clive Sinclaire

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Wayland" <dean@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] SWORD SETS


> Hi Clive,
>
> Thanks for the feedback. You also wrote:
> > Also interesting are the various positions in which a katana is
> > placed on
> > the floor at one's side when kneeling in front of another.
>
> I can hazard a few guesses at what would be involved, but I would be
> very interested to hear what would have been the correct practise in
> this circumstance.
>
> Also on the topic of mounting tachi on a tachi-kake, you wrote:
> > It is
> > incorrect
> > as is often seen, for the tsuka to be at the top when placed on a
> > proper
> > tachi stand.
>
> When I owned but one sword, my other half bought me a tachi-kake to
> display it. I was aware at the time of how to correctly use it, but out
> of curiosity I experimented with mounting it the wrong way round, to see
> if I could deduce the reasoning behind the practise. I found two things,
> (a) the end of the saya (kojiri?) would try to escape from the small
> indentation in the base, and (b) due to the point of balance being
> somewhat higher than it should be, the sword was easily dislodged.
> Needless to say ever since, I've always done as you previously outlined.
>
> Incidentally would I be right in thinking that a large weapon like a no-
> dachi/ou-dachi would also be displayed on a tachi-kake?
>
> Yours
>
> Dean
>
> ***
> Dean Wayland
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Clive,

> Dean
> Once again I crave the indulgence of the moderator if this is
> considered a
> little off-topic for this list, however....

I think if we were discussing modern martial arts practise, I would
expect the moderator to descend upon us, with his rendition of the wrath
of God. But as we're actually interested in the etiquette of the bushi
of the Sengoku-jidai, I think he'll let us off! Alternatively, at least
he'll give us a head start:-)

Now, thanks very much for the information it is invaluable. Arising out
of your email, I have some additional questions:

> Basically if sitting in seiza opposite another, it was customary to
> remove
> the katana from the obi and place it at your side, although, on
> entering
> another residence, the sword might be given to a page or servant
> for safe
> storage to be collected when leaving.

When entering a public building, was the practise much the same, i.e.
inns, drinking establishments etc.? I have read that in some places a
rack for this purpose was kept by the entrance, is this correct?

> Rules of sword etiquette
> still
> applies today although the bloody consequences of poor etiquette
> are less
> likely, however, good etiquette shows the difference between the
> educated
> gentlemen and the less well educated. It is unlikely that you will
> be able
> to view important swords in Japan (on a hands-on basis) such as
> National
> Treasures etc.unless you have already shown that you fall into the
> "educated
> gentleman" catagory.

H'mm, sadly, in my case, regardless of how well I become educated, it
would not be possible for me to study any weapon that closely. My
eyesight is so poor that I would need to be so near as to damage the
surface with my breath. Oh wll...

> As for No-dachi, I guess they can do whatever they want!!

Likewise their owner!

>although
> more
> seriously, I prefer a katana-kake as oversized swords are less well
> balanced
> on a tachi-kake.

Sounds like a sensible policy. I've seen modern katana-kake designed for
a single sword, but did such things exist earlier? You sometimes see
large calibre teppou displayed on stands like this.

Yours

Dean
***
Dean Wayland

Dean
I believe you are correct about inns, tea-houses etc., there would be such a
provision. In fact in my house, I have a vistor's rack, but few arrive at
the door with a sword in their obi these days. Actually I keep it for swords
which are in my care for whatever reason, but that I do not own - call me
old fashioned!!
I do have a couple of antique single sword racks but to be perfectly honest
I could not swear they were made to accomodate swords, maybe mirrors or
scrolls or some such. I also have a rack for 5 swords, which is very handy,
a couple for 3 but mostly just for 2 swords. Naginata and yari all go on the
wall.
Regards
Clive Sinclaire

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Wayland" <dean@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] SWORD SETS


> Hi Clive,
>
> > Dean
> > Once again I crave the indulgence of the moderator if this is
> > considered a
> > little off-topic for this list, however....
>
> I think if we were discussing modern martial arts practise, I would
> expect the moderator to descend upon us, with his rendition of the wrath
> of God. But as we're actually interested in the etiquette of the bushi
> of the Sengoku-jidai, I think he'll let us off! Alternatively, at least
> he'll give us a head start:-)
>
> Now, thanks very much for the information it is invaluable. Arising out
> of your email, I have some additional questions:
>
> > Basically if sitting in seiza opposite another, it was customary to
> > remove
> > the katana from the obi and place it at your side, although, on
> > entering
> > another residence, the sword might be given to a page or servant
> > for safe
> > storage to be collected when leaving.
>
> When entering a public building, was the practise much the same, i.e.
> inns, drinking establishments etc.? I have read that in some places a
> rack for this purpose was kept by the entrance, is this correct?
>
> > Rules of sword etiquette
> > still
> > applies today although the bloody consequences of poor etiquette
> > are less
> > likely, however, good etiquette shows the difference between the
> > educated
> > gentlemen and the less well educated. It is unlikely that you will
> > be able
> > to view important swords in Japan (on a hands-on basis) such as
> > National
> > Treasures etc.unless you have already shown that you fall into the
> > "educated
> > gentleman" catagory.
>
> H'mm, sadly, in my case, regardless of how well I become educated, it
> would not be possible for me to study any weapon that closely. My
> eyesight is so poor that I would need to be so near as to damage the
> surface with my breath. Oh wll...
>
> > As for No-dachi, I guess they can do whatever they want!!
>
> Likewise their owner!
>
> >although
> > more
> > seriously, I prefer a katana-kake as oversized swords are less well
> > balanced
> > on a tachi-kake.
>
> Sounds like a sensible policy. I've seen modern katana-kake designed for
> a single sword, but did such things exist earlier? You sometimes see
> large calibre teppou displayed on stands like this.
>
> Yours
>
> Dean
> ***
> Dean Wayland
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>