> "The sword was never more necessary in Japan's History than it
>was five hundred years ago, in that era of strife and civil war. But
>what did "combat" actually involve in those far-off days? It sure as
>hell wasn't like these neat roam-mat dojos we have today. They were
>fighting in the mountains, on riverbanks, tripping over tree roots
>and stones. The weapons they used, swords... spears... arrows...
>anything! You didn't even opponent would be on foot he could have
>came at you on horseback! How effective would any of our fancy
>modern sword styles have been, back then? While we were still edging
>our toes forward gauging the distance between our swords... some
>armored samurai on a warhorse would skewer us with his spear!"
> "And there are fools out there looking for spirityuality in
>the sword. Four hundred sword schools had opened up with a few years
>of the founding of the shogunate. Four hundred! But that didn't mean
>swordsmanship was flourishing, it just means a lot of bored samurai
>are selling their skills to buy rice. They can't offer content so
>they babble about spirit. And to keep other schools from stealing
>their students--their moneybags--they cooked up useless "secret
>techniques" just so they'ed look different from other schools. Oh
>and god forbid those moneybags get hurt! Oh, no, it's face-guards!
>Gloves! Body Armor! Light Bamboo Swords! So what do you wind up
>with? Peacetime warriors who have never faced a naked blade; felt
>the fear of death!"
> I posted this to show one reason the samurai became weak and
>the martial art people in the group. I'd like to hear what you think
>about it.
>
>
>
> >anything! You didn't even opponent would be on foot he could haveWhile some of the footwork techniques of kendô do not work particularly
> >came at you on horseback! How effective would any of our fancy
> >modern sword styles have been, back then? While we were still edging
> >our toes forward gauging the distance between our swords... some
> >armored samurai on a warhorse would skewer us with his spear!"
> >anything! You didn't even opponent would be on foot he could haveWhile some of the footwork techniques of kendô do not work particularly
> >came at you on horseback! How effective would any of our fancy
> >modern sword styles have been, back then? While we were still edging
> >our toes forward gauging the distance between our swords... some
> >armored samurai on a warhorse would skewer us with his spear!"
On Mar 24, 2006, at 7:20 PM, Ijin Mibu wrote:
> "The sword was never more necessary in Japan's History than it
> was five hundred years ago, in that era of strife and civil war. But
> what did "combat" actually involve in those far-off days? It sure as
> hell wasn't like these neat roam-mat dojos we have today. They were
> fighting in the mountains, on riverbanks, tripping over tree roots
> and stones. The weapons they used, swords... spears... arrows...
> anything! You didn't even opponent would be on foot he could have
> came at you on horseback! How effective would any of our fancy
> modern sword styles have been, back then? While we were still edging
> our toes forward gauging the distance between our swords... some
> armored samurai on a warhorse would skewer us with his spear!"
Training in the sword these days, at least with Iaido, is primarily
training for encounters in an urban setting against one or a handful
of attackers. If you are perceptive enough one can winnow out the
core combative techniques that would apply in a battlefield encounter.
We may train on flat level ground, most days, but what we are
building is a foundation for a proper cut delivered with all the
strength of the bodys' musculature behind it. Technique discovered on
the battlefield, but refined for generations by serious swordsmen.
It is easy enough to train in different settings, changing elements
like adding overhead obstructions, even so the "programming" should
kick in and in spite of the obstruction the best possible strike will
be delivered.
There are schools like the Yagyu Shingan ryu that practice
battlefield technique in armour, Their forms include strikes to the
vulnerable areas of Japanese armour and grappling. I am certain they
practice most of the time on flat level ground and probably use foam
mats too. Few if any would argue that they are not authentic.
> "And there are fools out there looking for spirityuality in
> the sword. Four hundred sword schools had opened up with a few years
> of the founding of the shogunate. Four hundred! But that didn't mean
> swordsmanship was flourishing, it just means a lot of bored samurai
> are selling their skills to buy rice. They can't offer content so
> they babble about spirit. And to keep other schools from stealing
> their students--their moneybags--they cooked up useless "secret
> techniques" just so they'ed look different from other schools. Oh
> and god forbid those moneybags get hurt! Oh, no, it's face-guards!
> Gloves! Body Armor! Light Bamboo Swords! So what do you wind up
> with? Peacetime warriors who have never faced a naked blade; felt
> the fear of death!"
I believe that schools of swordsmanship followed similar paths of
development in other places. Combat techniques were refined and
stylized and the mystique of the swordsman grew in importance. I
think if you'll look deeply into the questions you raise here you'll
see that among the 400 and more schools you mention that many have no
spiritual connections and teach only technique. Most place an
emphasis on etiquette as a means to guarantee safety within the
dojo. However there are those that focus deeply on the teachings of
zen buddhism or connexions to Shinto gods. After-all many of the
great swordsmen at the end of the age of battles developed their
mastery in pursuit of spiritual development. I am not really sure how
it is a bad thing to wish to behave in a gentlemanly fashion and to
seek to enrich ones spirit.
There are good and bad teachers, and unscrupulous people in all
ages. You have to choose your path carefully in all things. If you
have lived in Japan then you will be familiar with the surprising
number of frauds and wannabees there, samurai culture is a commodity
to some, even in the land of the samurai.
It seems that you have a poor opinion of Kendo as well. One could
argue that many Kendo-ka today lack the spirit and physical toughness
of the swordsmen of say the rough and tumble Bakumatsu period.
However if lyou ook closely at the practice today the top Kendo-ka
demonstrate more speed, power and technique than has been seen
before. The rules and technique have been refined, and the athletes
groomed from childhood, in the same way as world-class sports
figures. Just as todays football players run, hit and throw better
than players past, todays top level Kendo-ka are arguably faster,
keener and stronger than their predecessors.
One wonders where Ijin you have faced a naked blade and the fear of
death? There is death everywhere even if we don't go about toting
swords any longer.
> I posted this to show one reason the samurai became weak and
> the martial art people in the group. I'd like to hear what you think
> about it.
If you know your history, you will know that throughout the period
we suppose the samurai as a class became weak, there were elements
within it that studied western science and military technology. These
men and their students emerged as leaders with the strength of ideas
to oppose western encroachment even as the upper structure of samurai
society was collapsing.
In the world of swordsmanship also, there were fads and fashions but
it seems that the practical won out in the end; Jigen Ryu, Hokushin
Itto Ryu and Eishin Ryu are known to us because their techniques were
tested in the streets of Kyoto and on the battlefields of the
restoration war.
Many of the restoration leaders were dojo mates or known to each
other from fencing cicles. So when the time came for strength, for
"men of spirit" to lead the country they were to be found among the
martial artists...
-t
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Ok, see this is why I think modern kenshi suck. When someone saysthe "sword just isn't that important" and that "its more of a weapon of
>thought the sword was a last resort, you'd better had a gun or your onedead dumdass. Musashi and Ito Ittosai knew this and thy're famous! And
>worried about their "moneybags" they softed it up.Ever heard of a yari? If not, I'd suggest you look it up, because that's
> So thanks you for pissing me off day!
> So thanks you for pissing me off day!Warning 1. Cool it.
> lso, despite anything that kendô instructors might tell you,When I studied kendo, my kendo instructors told me that kendo is "the way of
> swords just were not that important. They were seldom the primary
> weapon. Rather, they were generally a weapon of last resort. The
> business about toe edging and maintaining distance does make sense in
> the context of dueling during the Edo period.
On 2006 Mar 26, at 4:32 PM, John Hess wrote:
> ���� Ok, see this is why I think modern kenshi suck. When someone says
> the "sword just isn't that important" and that "its more of a weapon
> of last resort". And if you had read the post "meaning" you would have
> seen I was saying that in the "waring states" era you didn't know what
> your opponent would be armed with or if he'd be on foot and there
> could have been more then one, there could have been 3 or 5. And if
> you thought the sword was a last resort, you'd better had a gun or
> your one dead dumdass. Musashi and Ito Ittosai knew this and thy're
> famous! And kendo was formed around Ito's techings, but when poeple
> got worried about their "moneybags" they softed it up.
> ���� So thanks you for pissing me off day!
Swords are over-rated. You are better off with either: a matchlock, a
bow, a naginata, or a yari as your primary weapon. Also, free-for-alls
are not something that classical and medieval strategists were
particularly fond of. Free-for-all approaches came about largely after
the development of modern firearms when tacticians realized that they
did not have to mass troops in order to mass strength. If you look at
battle paintings from Japan you will notice that unless a route is in
progress that you generally see troops on both sides drawn up in some
sort of skirmish line or other. Incidentally, battle paintings from the
Sengogku period pretty clearly show massed formations using similar
weapons. Think the battle scenes in Kagemusha except in 400 year old
paintings.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "The sword was never more necessary in Japan's__________________________________________________
> History than it
> was five hundred years ago, in that era of strife
> and civil war. But
> what did "combat" actually involve in those far-off
> days? It sure as
> hell wasn't like these neat roam-mat dojos we have
> today. They were
> fighting in the mountains, on riverbanks, tripping
> over tree roots
> and stones. The weapons they used, swords...
> spears... arrows...
> anything! You didn't even opponent would be on foot
> he could have
> came at you on horseback! How effective would any of
> our fancy
> modern sword styles have been, back then? While we
> were still edging
> our toes forward gauging the distance between our
> swords... some
> armored samurai on a warhorse would skewer us with
> his spear!"
> "And there are fools out there looking for
> spirityuality in
> the sword. Four hundred sword schools had opened up
> with a few years
> of the founding of the shogunate. Four hundred! But
> that didn't mean
> swordsmanship was flourishing, it just means a lot
> of bored samurai
> are selling their skills to buy rice. They can't
> offer content so
> they babble about spirit. And to keep other schools
> from stealing
> their students--their moneybags--they cooked up
> useless "secret
> techniques" just so they'ed look different from
> other schools. Oh
> and god forbid those moneybags get hurt! Oh, no,
> it's face-guards!
> Gloves! Body Armor! Light Bamboo Swords! So what do
> you wind up
> with? Peacetime warriors who have never faced a
> naked blade; felt
> the fear of death!"
> I posted this to show one reason the samurai
> became weak and
> the martial art people in the group. I'd like to
> hear what you think
> about it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "The sword was never more necessary in Japan's__________________________________________________
> History than it
> was five hundred years ago, in that era of strife
> and civil war. But
> what did "combat" actually involve in those far-off
> days? It sure as
> hell wasn't like these neat roam-mat dojos we have
> today. They were
> fighting in the mountains, on riverbanks, tripping
> over tree roots
> and stones. The weapons they used, swords...
> spears... arrows...
> anything! You didn't even opponent would be on foot
> he could have
> came at you on horseback! How effective would any of
> our fancy
> modern sword styles have been, back then? While we
> were still edging
> our toes forward gauging the distance between our
> swords... some
> armored samurai on a warhorse would skewer us with
> his spear!"
> "And there are fools out there looking for
> spirityuality in
> the sword. Four hundred sword schools had opened up
> with a few years
> of the founding of the shogunate. Four hundred! But
> that didn't mean
> swordsmanship was flourishing, it just means a lot
> of bored samurai
> are selling their skills to buy rice. They can't
> offer content so
> they babble about spirit. And to keep other schools
> from stealing
> their students--their moneybags--they cooked up
> useless "secret
> techniques" just so they'ed look different from
> other schools. Oh
> and god forbid those moneybags get hurt! Oh, no,
> it's face-guards!
> Gloves! Body Armor! Light Bamboo Swords! So what do
> you wind up
> with? Peacetime warriors who have never faced a
> naked blade; felt
> the fear of death!"
> I posted this to show one reason the samurai
> became weak and
> the martial art people in the group. I'd like to
> hear what you think
> about it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "The sword was never more necessary in Japan's__________________________________________________
> History than it
> was five hundred years ago, in that era of strife
> and civil war. But
> what did "combat" actually involve in those far-off
> days? It sure as
> hell wasn't like these neat roam-mat dojos we have
> today. They were
> fighting in the mountains, on riverbanks, tripping
> over tree roots
> and stones. The weapons they used, swords...
> spears... arrows...
> anything! You didn't even opponent would be on foot
> he could have
> came at you on horseback! How effective would any of
> our fancy
> modern sword styles have been, back then? While we
> were still edging
> our toes forward gauging the distance between our
> swords... some
> armored samurai on a warhorse would skewer us with
> his spear!"
> "And there are fools out there looking for
> spirityuality in
> the sword. Four hundred sword schools had opened up
> with a few years
> of the founding of the shogunate. Four hundred! But
> that didn't mean
> swordsmanship was flourishing, it just means a lot
> of bored samurai
> are selling their skills to buy rice. They can't
> offer content so
> they babble about spirit. And to keep other schools
> from stealing
> their students--their moneybags--they cooked up
> useless "secret
> techniques" just so they'ed look different from
> other schools. Oh
> and god forbid those moneybags get hurt! Oh, no,
> it's face-guards!
> Gloves! Body Armor! Light Bamboo Swords! So what do
> you wind up
> with? Peacetime warriors who have never faced a
> naked blade; felt
> the fear of death!"
> I posted this to show one reason the samurai
> became weak and
> the martial art people in the group. I'd like to
> hear what you think
> about it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Swords are over-rated. You are better off with either: a matchlock, aI know swords are over-rated on the battle feild and that the yari were the primary weapons. I myself use a spear in training sometimes, but a sword is just easyer to use (not all the time tho). As for the free-for-all after the Battle of Sekigahara the losers were hunted by the refugee hunters and they were just farmers and other villagers who village had been destoryed by the samurai fighting. So they really didnt care about one-on-one fights they justed wanted the rewards and must of them were armed with bamboo spears. And what I was talking about before was modern swordsmanship and how the poeple who study it would fair in a environment like that. And pictures aren't always true.
>bow, a naginata, or a yari as your primary weapon. Also, free-for-alls
>are not something that classical and medieval strategists were
>particularly fond of. Free-for-all approaches came about largely after
>the development of modern firearms when tacticians realized that they
>did not have to mass troops in order to mass strength. If you look at
>battle paintings from Japan you will notice that unless a route is in
>progress that you generally see troops on both sides drawn up in some
>sort of skirmish line or other. Incidentally, battle paintings from the
>Sengogku period pretty clearly show massed formations using similar
>weapons. Think the battle scenes in Kagemusha except in 400 year old
>paintings.