Magnificent Seven

While this western is often considered an "off-spring" of "Seven
Samurai", I think it has more to do wiht the notion of skilled men
adding a group of people than with an actual "code". It plays into
the notion of the "cowboy with a conscience" that forms the backbone
of most westerns, a character with a clear sense of "right and wrong",
risking his life for "right". This is a mythic sort of character,
which was blended with the "high concept" of professionals helping the
helpless.

KJJ

In a message dated 01/29/2006 6:31:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
agentkjj005@... writes:

>
> While this western is often considered an "off-spring" of "Seven
> Samurai", I think it has more to do wiht the notion of skilled men
> adding a group of people than with an actual "code". It plays into
> the notion of the "cowboy with a conscience" that forms the backbone
> of most westerns, a character with a clear sense of "right and wrong",
> risking his life for "right". This is a mythic sort of character,
> which was blended with the "high concept" of professionals helping the
> helpless.

Don't get me wrong. I really liked THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN. I saw it as a
teenager (which was a long, long, LONG time ago :)

But the idea of a "cowboy with a conscience" who has a clear sense of "right
and wrong" isn't at all like a 17th century Japanese ronin. The cowboys with a
conscience and a clear sense of right and wrong weren't thrust into their
roles as hired gunfighters. They were American, with the unique American culture
of having freely chosen this path. Usually they were searching for adventures.

A typical 17th century Japanese ronin usually started out life as a samurai
who lived in a castle and served a lord. Then something happened in his life;
in the 17th century, it usually was that his clan was defeated and abolished. I
remember one of the ronin in SEVEN SAMURAI telling his old pal Kanbei (the
leader of the band of ronin) about how his castle fell and he barely escaped --
and thus became a ronin, a samurai with no lord to serve. Unlike the American
gunfighters, neither clan samurai nor ronin would choose their path; they
were born into it. And in the case of the ronin, fate came along and cast them
into the path of ronin. Mostly a ronin would want to survive.

And then we get to the "code." One of the biggest misconceptions by
westerners is that Japanese samurai all lived by a written code of "Bushido." In the
17th century, no such code had ever been drawn up at all. Most clans had their
own codes of conduct, mainly about how to behave as members of the particular
clan. Some of these particular codes would discuss dealings with commoners, but
some did not. You can read some of these documents in the Samurai Archives
Message Board. But there were plenty of samurai who never bothered with these
codes. Same with the ronin of the 17th century.

You notice that, in THE SEVEN SAMURAI, when the farmers come to recruit some
ronin, most of the ronin turn up their noses -- that last thing on this earth
that they would want to do is defend some farmers. Especially when the farmers
offer nothing more than room and board. These ronin are searching for fame
and fortune and want to be recruited by a feudal clan, not some peasants. So the
idea that most ronin would come eagerly to the aid of farmers is another
myth, another misconception.

And it's probably true that in the Old American West, most hired gunfighters
wouldn't want to come to the aid of some Mexican peasants. But for different
reasons. Western gunfighters didn't look for positions with a feudal clan --
mainly because feudal clans didn't exist in the U.S.A. Most western American
gunfighters chose their paths and were looking for adventures. Unlike the 17th
century Japanese ronin, who were looking mainly to survive. Any American
gunfighter could retire when he wished and take up farming or work in a bank or go
to college if he chose. A Japanese ronin had none of these choices.

In short, 19th century American gunfighters and 17th century Japanese ronin
lived in entirely different cultures. These factors must be remembered when
comparing THE SEVEN SAMURAI with THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN.

Nina

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, nohit@a... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 01/29/2006 6:31:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> agentkjj005@y... writes:
>
> >
> > While this western is often considered an "off-spring" of "Seven
> > Samurai", I think it has more to do wiht the notion of skilled men
> > adding a group of people than with an actual "code". It plays into
> > the notion of the "cowboy with a conscience" that forms the backbone
> > of most westerns, a character with a clear sense of "right and

wrong",

> > risking his life for "right". This is a mythic sort of character,
> > which was blended with the "high concept" of professionals

helping the

> > helpless.
>
> Don't get me wrong. I really liked THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN. I saw it as a
> teenager (which was a long, long, LONG time ago :)
>
> But the idea of a "cowboy with a conscience" who has a clear sense

of "right

> and wrong" isn't at all like a 17th century Japanese ronin. The

cowboys with a

> conscience and a clear sense of right and wrong weren't thrust into

their

> roles as hired gunfighters. They were American, with the unique

American culture

> of having freely chosen this path.

You'll also notice the culture difference where in Magnificent Seven,
the protagonists stand at the gates of the town and confront the
bandits, whereas in Seven Samurai the Samurai hide out and ambush
them, never once confronting them before the battle.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:

>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, nohit@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 01/29/2006 6:31:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,

It plays into the notion of the "cowboy with a conscience" that
forms the backbone of most westerns, a character with a clear sense
of "right and wrong", risking his life for "right". This is a
mythic sort of character, which was blended with the "high concept"
of professionals helping the helpless.

> >
> > Don't get me wrong. I really liked THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN. I saw

it as a teenager (which was a long, long, LONG time ago :)
But the idea of a "cowboy with a conscience" who has a clear sense
of "right and wrong" isn't at all like a 17th century Japanese
ronin. The cowboys with a conscience and a clear sense of right and
wrong weren't thrust into their roles as hired gunfighters. They
were American, with the unique American culture of having freely
chosen this path.

>
> You'll also notice the culture difference where in Magnificent

Seven,

> the protagonists stand at the gates of the town and confront the
> bandits, whereas in Seven Samurai the Samurai hide out and ambush
> them, never once confronting them before the battle.
>

I agree with you. Sorry that what I wrote didn't make that
clear. Hollywood cowboys are famously "free agents" who decide "a
man's got'ta do what a man's got'ta do" after some outrage committed
by the bad guy of the piece. To say they are anything like samauria
as a culture or a class of warriors is just a sloppy
western "shorthand". Sorry I didn't make that clearer.

KJJ

> From: nohit@...
>
>
>But the idea of a "cowboy with a conscience" who has a clear sense of "right
>and wrong" isn't at all like a 17th century Japanese ronin.
>

I agree, but many Japanese think of Kurosawa as a WESTERN director so
his chanbara films is some ways don't either. So maybe when comparing
the two films they are a bit closer than one would think. Of course a
better example would be to read Dashiel Hammet's 'Red Harvest' and watch
Yojimbo knowing that Kurosawa is a fan of detective novels.

>You notice that, in THE SEVEN SAMURAI, when the farmers come to recruit some
>ronin, most of the ronin turn up their noses -- that last thing on this earth
>that they would want to do is defend some farmers.
>

I think films in general are poor guides to history. Anerican westerns
are for the most part phony as well having known people who actually
lived in the period there. For really quick reads Anthony Bryant's books
are pretty good and for a sloppy but readily available introduction one
of the Turnbull books is OK. Just don't bother with the ninja one, the
rest are pretty much rehashes of his previous ones.

Jim Eckman

Just because many Japanese think of Kurosawa as a Western director doesn't
actually make him one. He was a Japanese director who took some of his
inspiration from Western sources.

You are absolutely correct that film are not really good guides to actual
history. Both films, in many ways, deal with mythologies. But the
mythologies come from different cultures, different sources.

MAGNIFICENT SEVEN comes from Western American mythology, that of the noble
gunfighter who helps Mexican peasants. When in fact most Western gunfighters
were quite mercentary and many of them hated Mexicans.

SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the noble ronin who helps
peasants. When in fact, most Japanese ronin were mostly interested in
connecting with a clan. And they saw themselves as being apart from and
superior to the farmers.

However, the realities from which these mythologies spring from are quite
different. Once again: 19th century Western gunfighters were not the same at
all as 17th century Japanese ronin.

Nina

-----Original Message-----
From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of James Eckman
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 1:35 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Re: Magnificent Seven

> From: nohit@...
>
>
>But the idea of a "cowboy with a conscience" who has a clear sense of
>"right and wrong" isn't at all like a 17th century Japanese ronin.
>

I agree, but many Japanese think of Kurosawa as a WESTERN director so his
chanbara films is some ways don't either. So maybe when comparing the two
films they are a bit closer than one would think. Of course a better example
would be to read Dashiel Hammet's 'Red Harvest' and watch Yojimbo knowing
that Kurosawa is a fan of detective novels.

>You notice that, in THE SEVEN SAMURAI, when the farmers come to recruit
>some ronin, most of the ronin turn up their noses -- that last thing on
>this earth that they would want to do is defend some farmers.
>

I think films in general are poor guides to history. Anerican westerns are
for the most part phony as well having known people who actually lived in
the period there. For really quick reads Anthony Bryant's books are pretty
good and for a sloppy but readily available introduction one of the Turnbull
books is OK. Just don't bother with the ninja one, the rest are pretty much
rehashes of his previous ones.

Jim Eckman







---
Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html

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http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---
Yahoo! Groups Links

> From: "Boal, Nina" <Nina.Boal@...>
>
>Just because many Japanese think of Kurosawa as a Western director doesn't
>actually make him one. He was a Japanese director who took some of his
>inspiration from Western sources.
>
>

Why not? If some random American director closely followed the style and
plots of Mizoguchi or Ozu even if he made the settings American he
would probably be known as a 'Japanese' director. Kurosawa films are
great as films but weak on history and place many times.

>You are absolutely correct that film are not really good guides to actual
>history. Both films, in many ways, deal with mythologies. But the
>mythologies come from different cultures, different sources.
>
>

In the case of several of the Kurosawa chanbara films the myths are
western, King Lear, MacBeth and Red Harvest. So your watching western
myths in this case. Once again not good for studying historic Japan.

>SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the noble ronin who helps
>peasants. When in fact, most Japanese ronin were mostly interested in
>connecting with a clan. And they saw themselves as being apart from and
>superior to the farmers.
>
>

Since I'm actually not sure of Kurosawa's source for the plot for this
one, I won't make any definitive statements. The noble ronin who helps
peasants doesn't play much of a role in traditional stories, why would
you think its Japanese in this case?

>However, the realities from which these mythologies spring from are quite
>different. Once again: 19th century Western gunfighters were not the same at
>all as 17th century Japanese ronin.
>
>

Never said they were. Just that Kurosawa's chanbara films are more
grounded in Western roots than in Japanese roots on the average. His
films about modern subject are more distinctly Japanese with plot
resolutions that most Americans won't enjoy. A good example would be
'The Bad Sleep Well".

Jim Eckman

Jim Eckman

Lots of great points, Jim, especially about the influence of Western
literature on Kurosawa's films.

Nina wrote "...SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the
noble ronin who helps peasants. When in fact, most Japanese ronin
were mostly interested in connecting with a clan. And they saw
themselves as being apart from and superior to the farmers."

Jim wrote "Since I'm actually not sure of Kurosawa's source for the
plot for this one, I won't make any definitive statements."

It's been my understanding that Kurosawa did not have a direct source
for Seven Samurai. One of the reasons for the success of the film was
that it took the novel approach of having farmers hiring and being
protected by samurai, which was unheard of in Japanese cinema and
literature at the time. While Nina wrote that "...SEVEN SAMURAI come
from Japanese mythology of the noble ronin who helps peasants.",
there was not any sort of tradition or mythology in literature or
cinema that I am aware of to that point-Seven Samurai was the first
of its type (although there likely is some example of it,
somewhere...just not one I've encountered). Up to then, the plots
would be 'ronin helps himself out', 'samurai helps himself
out', 'samurai helps out other samurai', 'ronin or samurai screws
over peasants/townspeople while helping themselves out', etc. The
changing face of relative status in post-war Japan helped Seven
Samurai introduce the 'noble samurai/ronin who helped the downtrodden
masses' genre to Japan.

I read in Donald Richie's Japanese film book that there were some
"left-wing" movies made in the 1920s and 1930s that showed down-and-out
ronin aiding farmers. One of them, I forget the name, but it was directed by
Ito Daisuke, about a ronin who is avenging a death. He finds himself a
fugitive and is sheltered by some farmers and he and the farmers join forces
to combat the lord of the fief, who is taxing the farmers practically to
death. I haven't seen this film and I'd like to someday.

Also I've read about "noble ronin who help peasants" films in some of the
other film books. They apparently started to appear in Japanese film around
the late 50s/early 60s or so. Gosha Hideo did THREE OUTLAW SAMURAI around
that time, which is about some ronin who come to the aid of farmers.
Apparently he and some of the other directors used the portrayal of ronin as
a way to show a political viewpoint.

I forget exactly when SEVEN SAMURAI was made.

Nina
-----Original Message-----
From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Randy Schadel
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 4:18 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Re: Magnificent Seven

Lots of great points, Jim, especially about the influence of Western
literature on Kurosawa's films.

Nina wrote "...SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the noble ronin
who helps peasants. When in fact, most Japanese ronin were mostly interested
in connecting with a clan. And they saw themselves as being apart from and
superior to the farmers."

Jim wrote "Since I'm actually not sure of Kurosawa's source for the plot for
this one, I won't make any definitive statements."

It's been my understanding that Kurosawa did not have a direct source for
Seven Samurai. One of the reasons for the success of the film was that it
took the novel approach of having farmers hiring and being protected by
samurai, which was unheard of in Japanese cinema and literature at the time.
While Nina wrote that "...SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the
noble ronin who helps peasants.", there was not any sort of tradition or
mythology in literature or cinema that I am aware of to that point-Seven
Samurai was the first of its type (although there likely is some example of
it, somewhere...just not one I've encountered). Up to then, the plots would
be 'ronin helps himself out', 'samurai helps himself out', 'samurai helps
out other samurai', 'ronin or samurai screws over peasants/townspeople while
helping themselves out', etc. The changing face of relative status in
post-war Japan helped Seven Samurai introduce the 'noble samurai/ronin who
helped the downtrodden masses' genre to Japan.





---
Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html

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---
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I realize that this isn't a film list but a history list. Still, I have a
few comments as it relates to western conceptions/misconceptions of Japanese
samurai.

Kurosawa may have used some Western sources for some of his movies i.e.
Macbeth, Red Harvest, King Lear. But he put a Japanese slant on all of these
stories. I doubt that he was actually trying to emulate Shakespeare or
Dashiell Hammett. If he were, he would have set his films in England rather
than in Japan.

Same with John Sturgis, the director of MAGNIFICENT SEVEN put an American
slant on the SEVEN SAMURAI story. If he had really wanted to make a Japanese
film, he would have set the film in Japan.Just because MAGNIFICENT SEVEN
came from a Japanese source, this doesn't make Sturgis a "Japanese
director." So therefore, I don't think that, in the same way, that you can
call Kurosawa a "western director." Instead, one might say that these
directors were influenced by the different cultures.

Nina
-----Original Message-----
From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of James Eckman
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 10:24 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: RE: Re: Re: Magnificent Seven

> From: "Boal, Nina" <Nina.Boal@...>
>
>Just because many Japanese think of Kurosawa as a Western director
>doesn't actually make him one. He was a Japanese director who took some
>of his inspiration from Western sources.
>
>

Why not? If some random American director closely followed the style and
plots of Mizoguchi or Ozu even if he made the settings American he would
probably be known as a 'Japanese' director. Kurosawa films are great as
films but weak on history and place many times.

>You are absolutely correct that film are not really good guides to
>actual history. Both films, in many ways, deal with mythologies. But
>the mythologies come from different cultures, different sources.
>
>

In the case of several of the Kurosawa chanbara films the myths are western,
King Lear, MacBeth and Red Harvest. So your watching western myths in this
case. Once again not good for studying historic Japan.

>SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the noble ronin who helps
>peasants. When in fact, most Japanese ronin were mostly interested in
>connecting with a clan. And they saw themselves as being apart from and
>superior to the farmers.
>
>

Since I'm actually not sure of Kurosawa's source for the plot for this one,
I won't make any definitive statements. The noble ronin who helps peasants
doesn't play much of a role in traditional stories, why would you think its
Japanese in this case?

>However, the realities from which these mythologies spring from are
>quite different. Once again: 19th century Western gunfighters were not
>the same at all as 17th century Japanese ronin.
>
>

Never said they were. Just that Kurosawa's chanbara films are more grounded
in Western roots than in Japanese roots on the average. His films about
modern subject are more distinctly Japanese with plot resolutions that most
Americans won't enjoy. A good example would be 'The Bad Sleep Well".

Jim Eckman

Jim Eckman




---
Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html

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---
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Nina,

Are there any on-line sources that discuss Samurai movies? I'm interested in finding movies that show samurai in the 19th century.

Bob Burke

-----Original Message-----
From: Boal, Nina <Nina.Boal@...>
To: 'samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com' <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 16:42:16 -0500
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Re: Magnificent Seven


I read in Donald Richie's Japanese film book that there were some
"left-wing" movies made in the 1920s and 1930s that showed down-and-out
ronin aiding farmers. One of them, I forget the name, but it was directed by
Ito Daisuke, about a ronin who is avenging a death. He finds himself a
fugitive and is sheltered by some farmers and he and the farmers join forces
to combat the lord of the fief, who is taxing the farmers practically to
death. I haven't seen this film and I'd like to someday.

Also I've read about "noble ronin who help peasants" films in some of the
other film books. They apparently started to appear in Japanese film around
the late 50s/early 60s or so. Gosha Hideo did THREE OUTLAW SAMURAI around
that time, which is about some ronin who come to the aid of farmers.
Apparently he and some of the other directors used the portrayal of ronin as
a way to show a political viewpoint.

I forget exactly when SEVEN SAMURAI was made.

Nina
-----Original Message-----
From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Randy Schadel
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 4:18 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Re: Magnificent Seven

Lots of great points, Jim, especially about the influence of Western
literature on Kurosawa's films.

Nina wrote "...SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the noble ronin
who helps peasants. When in fact, most Japanese ronin were mostly interested
in connecting with a clan. And they saw themselves as being apart from and
superior to the farmers."

Jim wrote "Since I'm actually not sure of Kurosawa's source for the plot for
this one, I won't make any definitive statements."

It's been my understanding that Kurosawa did not have a direct source for
Seven Samurai. One of the reasons for the success of the film was that it
took the novel approach of having farmers hiring and being protected by
samurai, which was unheard of in Japanese cinema and literature at the time.
While Nina wrote that "...SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the
noble ronin who helps peasants.", there was not any sort of tradition or
mythology in literature or cinema that I am aware of to that point-Seven
Samurai was the first of its type (although there likely is some example of
it, somewhere...just not one I've encountered). Up to then, the plots would
be 'ronin helps himself out', 'samurai helps himself out', 'samurai helps
out other samurai', 'ronin or samurai screws over peasants/townspeople while
helping themselves out', etc. The changing face of relative status in
post-war Japan helped Seven Samurai introduce the 'noble samurai/ronin who
helped the downtrodden masses' genre to Japan.





---
Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html

Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com Samurai Archives store:
http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---
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---
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---
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Absolutely. Check out http://p214.ezboard.com/btheninjadojo89233. The name
"Ninja Dojo" sounds cheesy, but we do have some nice discussions of samurai
films.

Also check out the IMDB (International Movie Data Base) forums on individual
films. There is a nice and serious discussion going on at the forum
dedicated to SEPPUKU ("Hara Kiri") the film made by Kobayashi in 1962. The
site for the SEPPUKU discussion is: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056058/
Scroll down to the "Message Board" section and click on this and you will
get the actual message board.

Nina

-----Original Message-----
From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of burker1@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 5:09 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Re: Magnificent Seven

Nina,

Are there any on-line sources that discuss Samurai movies? I'm interested
in finding movies that show samurai in the 19th century.

Bob Burke

-----Original Message-----
From: Boal, Nina <Nina.Boal@...>
To: 'samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com' <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 16:42:16 -0500
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Re: Magnificent Seven


I read in Donald Richie's Japanese film book that there were some
"left-wing" movies made in the 1920s and 1930s that showed down-and-out
ronin aiding farmers. One of them, I forget the name, but it was directed by
Ito Daisuke, about a ronin who is avenging a death. He finds himself a
fugitive and is sheltered by some farmers and he and the farmers join forces
to combat the lord of the fief, who is taxing the farmers practically to
death. I haven't seen this film and I'd like to someday.

Also I've read about "noble ronin who help peasants" films in some of the
other film books. They apparently started to appear in Japanese film around
the late 50s/early 60s or so. Gosha Hideo did THREE OUTLAW SAMURAI around
that time, which is about some ronin who come to the aid of farmers.
Apparently he and some of the other directors used the portrayal of ronin as
a way to show a political viewpoint.

I forget exactly when SEVEN SAMURAI was made.

Nina
-----Original Message-----
From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Randy Schadel
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 4:18 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Re: Magnificent Seven

Lots of great points, Jim, especially about the influence of Western
literature on Kurosawa's films.

Nina wrote "...SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the noble ronin
who helps peasants. When in fact, most Japanese ronin were mostly interested
in connecting with a clan. And they saw themselves as being apart from and
superior to the farmers."

Jim wrote "Since I'm actually not sure of Kurosawa's source for the plot for
this one, I won't make any definitive statements."

It's been my understanding that Kurosawa did not have a direct source for
Seven Samurai. One of the reasons for the success of the film was that it
took the novel approach of having farmers hiring and being protected by
samurai, which was unheard of in Japanese cinema and literature at the time.
While Nina wrote that "...SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the
noble ronin who helps peasants.", there was not any sort of tradition or
mythology in literature or cinema that I am aware of to that point-Seven
Samurai was the first of its type (although there likely is some example of
it, somewhere...just not one I've encountered). Up to then, the plots would
be 'ronin helps himself out', 'samurai helps himself out', 'samurai helps
out other samurai', 'ronin or samurai screws over peasants/townspeople while
helping themselves out', etc. The changing face of relative status in
post-war Japan helped Seven Samurai introduce the 'noble samurai/ronin who
helped the downtrodden masses' genre to Japan.





---
Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html

Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com Samurai Archives store:
http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---
Yahoo! Groups Links







---
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---
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman
wrote:

>
>
> > From: "Boal, Nina"
> >
> >Just because many Japanese think of Kurosawa as a Western director

doesn't

> >actually make him one. He was a Japanese director who took some of his
> >inspiration from Western sources.
> >
> >
> Why not? If some random American director closely followed the style

and

> plots of Mizoguchi or Ozu even if he made the settings American he
> would probably be known as a 'Japanese' director.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that. No American director has ever been thought of
as anything other than a director, at best "inspired by" or
"influenced by" someone else. Probably Holywood pride - they think
they are the center of the world, why relegate someone to being a
'japanese' director? The phrase doesn't even make any sense anyway.

"Also I've read about "noble ronin who help peasants" films in some of
the other film books. They apparently started to appear in Japanese
film around the late 50s/early 60s or so. Gosha Hideo did THREE OUTLAW
SAMURAI around that time, which is about some ronin who come to the aid
of farmers. Apparently he and some of the other directors used the
portrayal of ronin as a way to show a political viewpoint.
I forget exactly when SEVEN SAMURAI was made."

Seven Samurai was made in 1954, so all of these films would have been
after that...I think Three Outlaw Samurai was 1962 or thereabouts.
Thanks for the information on the earlier films-I have Richie's book
(if it's the same one you have) and also the new edition of Silver's.
I'll have to see if I can find the films somewhere.

> From: "Kitsuno" <samurai-listowner@...>
>
>
>>Why not? If some random American director closely followed the style
>>
>>
>and
>
>
>>plots of Mizoguchi or Ozu even if he made the settings American he
>>would probably be known as a 'Japanese' director.
>>
>>
>
>I SERIOUSLY doubt that. No American director has ever been thought of
>as anything other than a director, at best "inspired by" or
>"influenced by" someone else. Probably Holywood pride - they think
>they are the center of the world, why relegate someone to being a
>'japanese' director? The phrase doesn't even make any sense anyway.
>
>

I'm not sure that relegate is the right word. Mizoguchi and Ozu were
great directors in their own right and if I had to use jidai-geki films
to get a feel for historical Japan, I think these directors do a much
better job than Kurosawa getting the social feel right. Along those
lines, something like Twilight Samurai is probably a bit better as well.
As for the phrase Japanese director, I would give it two meanings, the
obvious one and the one that means a director that copies Japanese film
style and plot to the extent that their movies seem more like Japanese
films that would normally only be made in Japan. I doubt they would play
well in America since the only great imported hits from Japan seem to be
the violent ones, anime excepted.

If I could make films as well as Ozu or others, I would take pride in it
even if they were copies, but I'm not Hollywood.

Jim Eckman

Hi,
I am researching on Seven Samurai for academic purpose. Need help. Pls suggest a few books or related material.
Thanks in advance.
Naren.

"Boal, Nina" <Nina.Boal@...> wrote: Just because many Japanese think of Kurosawa as a Western director doesn't
actually make him one. He was a Japanese director who took some of his
inspiration from Western sources.

You are absolutely correct that film are not really good guides to actual
history. Both films, in many ways, deal with mythologies. But the
mythologies come from different cultures, different sources.

MAGNIFICENT SEVEN comes from Western American mythology, that of the noble
gunfighter who helps Mexican peasants. When in fact most Western gunfighters
were quite mercentary and many of them hated Mexicans.

SEVEN SAMURAI come from Japanese mythology of the noble ronin who helps
peasants. When in fact, most Japanese ronin were mostly interested in
connecting with a clan. And they saw themselves as being apart from and
superior to the farmers.

However, the realities from which these mythologies spring from are quite
different. Once again: 19th century Western gunfighters were not the same at
all as 17th century Japanese ronin.

Nina

-----Original Message-----
From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of James Eckman
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 1:35 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Re: Magnificent Seven

> From: nohit@...
>
>
>But the idea of a "cowboy with a conscience" who has a clear sense of
>"right and wrong" isn't at all like a 17th century Japanese ronin.
>

I agree, but many Japanese think of Kurosawa as a WESTERN director so his
chanbara films is some ways don't either. So maybe when comparing the two
films they are a bit closer than one would think. Of course a better example
would be to read Dashiel Hammet's 'Red Harvest' and watch Yojimbo knowing
that Kurosawa is a fan of detective novels.

>You notice that, in THE SEVEN SAMURAI, when the farmers come to recruit
>some ronin, most of the ronin turn up their noses -- that last thing on
>this earth that they would want to do is defend some farmers.
>

I think films in general are poor guides to history. Anerican westerns are
for the most part phony as well having known people who actually lived in
the period there. For really quick reads Anthony Bryant's books are pretty
good and for a sloppy but readily available introduction one of the Turnbull
books is OK. Just don't bother with the ninja one, the rest are pretty much
rehashes of his previous ones.

Jim Eckman







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"Hi, I am researching on Seven Samurai for academic purpose. Need help.
Pls suggest a few books or related material.
Thanks in advance.
Naren."


There's a small well done book about the film in the BFI Film Classics
Series (simply Seven Samurai-BFI Film Classics). You should be able to
get it through Amazon.com or a large bookstore.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Narendra Gokhale
wrote:

>
> Hi,
> I am researching on Seven Samurai for academic purpose. Need help.

Pls suggest a few books or related material.

> Thanks in advance.
> Naren.
>
>

The Seven Samurai DVD from the Criterion Collection has the best and
most interesting commentary that I've heard on a DVD. You should get
your hands on that.

--- "Boal, Nina" <Nina.Boal@...> wrote:

>
> I forget exactly when SEVEN SAMURAI was made.

US theatrical release was November 19, 1956, which
likely means it was out in Japan in 1954-55.

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