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Samauri cutting off ponytail

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#8141 [2005-12-23 19:07:35]

Samauri cutting off ponytail

by moosho21

Hello everyone,
I have a question regarding the practice of a samuari cutting off
his ponytail. What does it mean? I tried to research it and the only
thing I could find was that it was a symbol of suicide??????? I am
watching a Korean drama called Yi Soon-shin. It took place on this
drama. I know it must have significant meaning...
Thank you for your time!!!!!!!!

[Next #8143]
#8143 [2005-12-24 13:53:22]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samauri cutting off ponytail

by soshuju

Moosho-
A number of things are going on when a samurai cuts off his topknot;

First off it is symbolic of a renunciation of secular life, of self.
Thus a buddhist shaves his or her head when entering the monastic
life. Conversely we see Sumo wrestlers cut off their topknots when
ending their (monk-like?) life in the sport and re-entering
pedestrian life.

At the coming of age ceremony a young samurai boy has his head shaved
and dressed for the first time in the style of an adult. As an adult
he accepts all the responsibilities of his house, his life, his body,
serve his lord and by extension belong to him. He is expected to
avoid any action which would bring disgrace on his lord, so he must
always dress and act properly. To fail to answer a challenge, to die
in a fight with your sword undrawn, to allow the name or the family-
crest of ones lord to be besmirched among other crimes, would all
bring great shame on your house and your lord.Hairstyle was a clear,
visible representation of rank and position.(keep in mind these
customs may have had their origins in the age of war, but found their
extremes in the Edo period)

So we can imagine the shock of the villagers in the Seven Samurai
when they see a seemingly sane member of the bushi class shaving his
head and removing his swords, to aid a little peasant boy. No wonder
a crowd gathers! And Japanese filmgoers all recognize that with his
shaved head and the simple sash he is given he has assumed the guise
of a priest.

In the film Seppuku, the hero chooses to cut off the topknots of his
enemies rather than their heads, knowing that if they were true
samurai they would have no choice but to kill themselves rather than
reveal their shame to their lord.



-t

[Previous #8141] [Next #8146]
#8146 [2005-12-24 14:04:02]

RE: [samuraihistory] Samauri cutting off ponytail

by keecurlee

This was a very good read... Thank you Kee

-----Original Message-----
From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Tom Helm
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 2:53 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Samauri cutting off ponytail


Moosho-
A number of things are going on when a samurai cuts off his topknot;

First off it is symbolic of a renunciation of secular life, of self.
Thus a buddhist shaves his or her head when entering the monastic
life. Conversely we see Sumo wrestlers cut off their topknots when
ending their (monk-like?) life in the sport and re-entering
pedestrian life.

At the coming of age ceremony a young samurai boy has his head shaved
and dressed for the first time in the style of an adult. As an adult
he accepts all the responsibilities of his house, his life, his body,
serve his lord and by extension belong to him. He is expected to
avoid any action which would bring disgrace on his lord, so he must
always dress and act properly. To fail to answer a challenge, to die
in a fight with your sword undrawn, to allow the name or the family-
crest of ones lord to be besmirched among other crimes, would all
bring great shame on your house and your lord.Hairstyle was a clear,
visible representation of rank and position.(keep in mind these
customs may have had their origins in the age of war, but found their
extremes in the Edo period)

So we can imagine the shock of the villagers in the Seven Samurai
when they see a seemingly sane member of the bushi class shaving his
head and removing his swords, to aid a little peasant boy. No wonder
a crowd gathers! And Japanese filmgoers all recognize that with his
shaved head and the simple sash he is given he has assumed the guise
of a priest.

In the film Seppuku, the hero chooses to cut off the topknots of his
enemies rather than their heads, knowing that if they were true
samurai they would have no choice but to kill themselves rather than
reveal their shame to their lord.



-t



---
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[Previous #8143] [Next #8147]
#8147 [2005-12-24 17:06:05]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samauri cutting off ponytail

by blaz5464@aol.com

When did the topknot start as a requirement for samurai? I am writing about
the Genpei (Gempei) War, 12th century, and wonder if the topknot existed
during this time? Anyone know?

Thanks
Barbara


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #8146] [Next #8149]
#8149 [2005-12-26 10:05:37]

Re: Samauri cutting off ponytail

by moosho21

Thanks Tom....
In the drama I am watching Hideyoshi cut off his topknot after his
only son died ,infront of his daymios. His dayimos in returned cut
off their topknots and said it was for his sons soul...... Would
this be classified under renunciation of self?
Thanks,
Moosho














--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Tom Helm
wrote:
>
> Moosho-
> A number of things are going on when a samurai cuts off his
topknot;
>
> First off it is symbolic of a renunciation of secular life, of
self.
> Thus a buddhist shaves his or her head when entering the monastic
> life. Conversely we see Sumo wrestlers cut off their topknots
when
> ending their (monk-like?) life in the sport and re-entering
> pedestrian life.
>
> At the coming of age ceremony a young samurai boy has his head
shaved
> and dressed for the first time in the style of an adult. As an
adult
> he accepts all the responsibilities of his house, his life, his
body,
> serve his lord and by extension belong to him. He is expected to
> avoid any action which would bring disgrace on his lord, so he
must
> always dress and act properly. To fail to answer a challenge, to
die
> in a fight with your sword undrawn, to allow the name or the
family-
> crest of ones lord to be besmirched among other crimes, would all
> bring great shame on your house and your lord.Hairstyle was a
clear,
> visible representation of rank and position.(keep in mind these
> customs may have had their origins in the age of war, but found
their
> extremes in the Edo period)
>
> So we can imagine the shock of the villagers in the Seven
Samurai
> when they see a seemingly sane member of the bushi class shaving
his
> head and removing his swords, to aid a little peasant boy. No
wonder
> a crowd gathers! And Japanese filmgoers all recognize that with
his
> shaved head and the simple sash he is given he has assumed the
guise
> of a priest.
>
> In the film Seppuku, the hero chooses to cut off the
topknots of his
> enemies rather than their heads, knowing that if they were true
> samurai they would have no choice but to kill themselves rather
than
> reveal their shame to their lord.
>
>
>
> -t
>

[Previous #8147] [Next #8150]
#8150 [2005-12-24 20:06:09]

Re: Samauri cutting off ponytail

by moosho21

Thanks Tom....
In this drama Toyotomi Hideyoshi is devasted at the death of his
only son. When his son passes. He goes outside to his dayimos and
cuts off his ponytail and all the dayimos cut off theirs. They say
it is for Hideyoshi son's soul. Is this an accurate portrayal of
what might have happened? It was a very dramatic scene....









--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Tom Helm
wrote:
>
> Moosho-
> A number of things are going on when a samurai cuts off his
topknot;
>
> First off it is symbolic of a renunciation of secular life, of
self.
> Thus a buddhist shaves his or her head when entering the monastic
> life. Conversely we see Sumo wrestlers cut off their topknots
when
> ending their (monk-like?) life in the sport and re-entering
> pedestrian life.
>
> At the coming of age ceremony a young samurai boy has his head
shaved
> and dressed for the first time in the style of an adult. As an
adult
> he accepts all the responsibilities of his house, his life, his
body,
> serve his lord and by extension belong to him. He is expected to
> avoid any action which would bring disgrace on his lord, so he
must
> always dress and act properly. To fail to answer a challenge, to
die
> in a fight with your sword undrawn, to allow the name or the
family-
> crest of ones lord to be besmirched among other crimes, would all
> bring great shame on your house and your lord.Hairstyle was a
clear,
> visible representation of rank and position.(keep in mind these
> customs may have had their origins in the age of war, but found
their
> extremes in the Edo period)
>
> So we can imagine the shock of the villagers in the Seven
Samurai
> when they see a seemingly sane member of the bushi class shaving
his
> head and removing his swords, to aid a little peasant boy. No
wonder
> a crowd gathers! And Japanese filmgoers all recognize that with
his
> shaved head and the simple sash he is given he has assumed the
guise
> of a priest.
>
> In the film Seppuku, the hero chooses to cut off the
topknots of his
> enemies rather than their heads, knowing that if they were true
> samurai they would have no choice but to kill themselves rather
than
> reveal their shame to their lord.
>
>
>
> -t
>

[Previous #8149] [Next #8151]
#8151 [2005-12-26 15:07:16]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samauri cutting off ponytail

by ltdomer98

--- moosho21 <moosho21@...> wrote:

> Thanks Tom....
> In this drama Toyotomi Hideyoshi is devasted at the
> death of his
> only son. When his son passes. He goes outside to
> his dayimos and
> cuts off his ponytail and all the dayimos cut off
> theirs. They say
> it is for Hideyoshi son's soul. Is this an accurate
> portrayal of
> what might have happened? It was a very dramatic
> scene....

The movie you're watching, "Owl's Castle" (Fukuro no
shiro), is a completely different case than the ones
explained. Hideyoshi is insane with grief--emphasis on
insane. He cuts his topknot off in a fit of grief at
his son's funeral. The daimyo gathered behind him then
follow suit--not out of grief at the death, but
because Hideyoshi did it, so in order to appear loyal,
they must two. Several of the daimyo comment that
Hideyoshi has gone mad, including Ishida Mitsunari and
Tokugawa Ieyasu. In fact, the main reason Ieyasu
commissions the assasination of Hideyoshi is because
he believes Hideyoshi's gone insane--this is the whole
premise of the movie.

Hideyoshi's not renouncing anything--you seem him
later in the movie, with a perfectly good topknot, as
you see all the other daimyo. Had he renounced the
world, he'd have shaved his head, not just cut off his
topknot. His act is the equivalent of someone today
taking a baseball bat and smashing a window out of
rage or anger. Don't read too much into that scene in
that particular movie.






























__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
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[Previous #8150] [Next #8154]
#8154 [2005-12-27 13:16:34]

Re: Samauri cutting off ponytail

by moosho21

Thank you Nate for the explaination!!!!!






--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:
>
>
>
> --- moosho21 wrote:
>
> > Thanks Tom....
> > In this drama Toyotomi Hideyoshi is devasted at the
> > death of his
> > only son. When his son passes. He goes outside to
> > his dayimos and
> > cuts off his ponytail and all the dayimos cut off
> > theirs. They say
> > it is for Hideyoshi son's soul. Is this an accurate
> > portrayal of
> > what might have happened? It was a very dramatic
> > scene....
>
> The movie you're watching, "Owl's Castle" (Fukuro no
> shiro), is a completely different case than the ones
> explained. Hideyoshi is insane with grief--emphasis on
> insane. He cuts his topknot off in a fit of grief at
> his son's funeral. The daimyo gathered behind him then
> follow suit--not out of grief at the death, but
> because Hideyoshi did it, so in order to appear loyal,
> they must two. Several of the daimyo comment that
> Hideyoshi has gone mad, including Ishida Mitsunari and
> Tokugawa Ieyasu. In fact, the main reason Ieyasu
> commissions the assasination of Hideyoshi is because
> he believes Hideyoshi's gone insane--this is the whole
> premise of the movie.
>
> Hideyoshi's not renouncing anything--you seem him
> later in the movie, with a perfectly good topknot, as
> you see all the other daimyo. Had he renounced the
> world, he'd have shaved his head, not just cut off his
> topknot. His act is the equivalent of someone today
> taking a baseball bat and smashing a window out of
> rage or anger. Don't read too much into that scene in
> that particular movie.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________
> Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> dsl.yahoo.com
>

[Previous #8151] [Next #8155]
#8155 [2005-12-27 15:40:21]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samauri cutting off ponytail

by ltdomer98

--- moosho21 <moosho21@...> wrote:

> Thank you Nate for the explaination!!!!!
>

No prob :)




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[Previous #8154] [Next #8162]
#8162 [2005-12-31 12:59:10]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samauri cutting off ponytail

by drnostrand

Hi.

Yes, they had pony tails during the Heian period. For that matter, long
hair is generally shown as far back as Shotoku Taishi. However, sons of
Shotoku Taishi are generally shown wearing looped pig tails. The
details of shaven forelocks and exact arrangement of the pony tail
varied a fair amount during the Edo period.

[Previous #8155] [Next #8171]
#8171 [2006-01-09 19:44:44]

Re: Samauri cutting off ponytail

by msnndrsn

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "moosho21" wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
> I have a question regarding the practice of a samuari cutting
off
> his ponytail. What does it mean? I tried to research it and the only
> thing I could find was that it was a symbol of suicide??????? I am
> watching a Korean drama called Yi Soon-shin. It took place on this
> drama. I know it must have significant meaning...
> Thank you for your time!!!!!!!!
>
lol i no wat it mean here it is

it is symbolic of a renunciation of secular life

[Previous #8162] [Next #8173]
#8173 [2006-01-09 19:43:24]

Re: Samauri cutting off ponytail

by msnndrsn

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "moosho21" wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
> I have a question regarding the practice of a samuari cutting
off
> his ponytail. What does it mean? I tried to research it and the only
> thing I could find was that it was a symbol of suicide??????? I am
> watching a Korean drama called Yi Soon-shin. It took place on this
> drama. I know it must have significant meaning...
> Thank you for your time!!!!!!!!
>Hey man im not acactlly sure what it means,but i think its a sigh that
there a samurai and that that the ponytail is a symbol of honor of
trained samurai i think im not sure ill have to look for u someime. if
u find out tell me.

[Previous #8171] [Next #8255]
#8255 [2006-01-28 01:01:18]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samauri cutting off ponytail

by thegreatjahova666

It's called a top knot,

mason <msnndrsn@...> wrote: --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "moosho21" wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
> I have a question regarding the practice of a samuari cutting
off
> his ponytail. What does it mean? I tried to research it and the only
> thing I could find was that it was a symbol of suicide??????? I am
> watching a Korean drama called Yi Soon-shin. It took place on this
> drama. I know it must have significant meaning...
> Thank you for your time!!!!!!!!
>Hey man im not acactlly sure what it means,but i think its a sigh that
there a samurai and that that the ponytail is a symbol of honor of
trained samurai i think im not sure ill have to look for u someime. if
u find out tell me.








---
Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html

Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
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---



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[Previous #8173] [Next #8256]
#8256 [2006-01-28 01:01:19]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samauri cutting off ponytail

by thegreatjahova666

It's called a top knot, not a

mason <msnndrsn@...> wrote: --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "moosho21" wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
> I have a question regarding the practice of a samuari cutting
off
> his ponytail. What does it mean? I tried to research it and the only
> thing I could find was that it was a symbol of suicide??????? I am
> watching a Korean drama called Yi Soon-shin. It took place on this
> drama. I know it must have significant meaning...
> Thank you for your time!!!!!!!!
>Hey man im not acactlly sure what it means,but i think its a sigh that
there a samurai and that that the ponytail is a symbol of honor of
trained samurai i think im not sure ill have to look for u someime. if
u find out tell me.








---
Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html

Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
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---



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