hakama

----- Original Message -----
From: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:46 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 155


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> There is 1 message in this issue.
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> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. hakama
> From: "konos" <konos1@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 01:19:23 +0200
> From: "konos" <konos1@...>
> Subject: hakama
>
> Besides it's ocassional apperance at the Edo Period and in the hitatare of
12th century, hakama is not obligatory. It's not a daimyo's command.
Nevertheless samurai were more or less obliged to follow the "rich and
famous" status of the court they were implicated in. First of all samurai
were warriors. So even the obi was the right dressing only if it could carry
tanto or wakizashi.
>
> Greetings from Greece, especially to Amphipolis.
> Konstantinos
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
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----- Original Message -----

From: konos

Besides it's ocassional apperance at the Edo Period and in the hitatare of 12th century, hakama is not obligatory. It's not a
daimyo's command. Nevertheless samurai were more or less obliged to follow the "rich and famous" status of the court they were
implicated in. First of all samurai were warriors. So even the obi was the right dressing only if it could carry tanto or
wakizashi.

Greetings from Greece, especially to Amphipolis.
Konstantinos

> Konnichi-wa,
>
> It has been my experience of martial arts (for 11
> years, through 8 different arts), that the samurai
> used to wear them for all
> of the above purposes, but also for one other.
>
> There is a sitting posture that the ninja adopted
> when impersonating a samurai, so that it was easy to
> move if attacked
> unexpectantly, or preparing to attack unexpectantly.
>
> Although I can't reveal the seated posture, I can,
> however, tell you about it.
>
> This seated posture looks identical to the casual
> seated posture in modern day Japan, with the legs
> crossed at the shins, and
> knees almost resting on the ankles.
>
> This is still alive in martial arts that have
> techniques adopted from the samurai arts. The hakama
> hid whether or not they
> were seated like this in particular, or _however_
> they were seated in fact.
>
> Kumo.
>
> Natsu Kusa Ya
> Tsuamono Domo Ga
> Yume No Ato
>
> Basho.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: konos
>
> Besides it's ocassional apperance at the Edo Period
> and in the hitatare of 12th century, hakama is not
> obligatory. It's not a
> daimyo's command. Nevertheless samurai were more or
> less obliged to follow the "rich and famous" status
> of the court they were
> implicated in. First of all samurai were warriors.
> So even the obi was the right dressing only if it
> could carry tanto or
> wakizashi.
>
> Greetings from Greece, especially to Amphipolis.
> Konstantinos
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "erik baker" <musashieb@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] hakama


> Hello,
>
> I am sorry but I have practiced Budo for over 12 years
> of my life. I have to disagree. There are all kinds
> of ideas that the Hakama was worn to disguise movement
> or position. This is simply not true. The Samurai
> when going in to combat without armor preffered to
> were there hakama tucked up some under the Obi. This
> allowed full movement without tripping on the hakama
> itself.(anyone who practices Aikido has had this
> happen) When wearing armor they didn't even wear
> hakama so it did not apply.
>
> The Word "ninja" is not hstorically correct and
> neither is their movie incarnation. They were usually
> reffered to as Shinobi and originally were not as
> specialized as the movies make them appear. They were
> used to set fire to enemy encampments and castles in
> order to cause confusion. Sometimes rarely they would
> be employed to kill. But I have heard of very few if
> any cases with the latter. A good book on the subject
> of the origin and truths behind the "Ninja" is Stephen
> Turnbulls, Ninja. It is very hard to get ahold of and
> has to be ordered from Europe but is worth the price.
>
> There are alot of myths regarding the history of the
> Martial arts.(Ninja Especially)
>
> If anyone looks back through the emails they will find
> an explanation given by me on the general usage of the
> hakama as well as from Anthony J. Bryant, Both of
> these are good. There was really nothing mysterious
> about it. If you look at the clothing from the yayoi
> period forward you will see similarity's leading to
> the advent of the Hakama. The Japanese as with every
> othr nation were very practical in the development of
> their clothing. A good example of this is the Long
> Hakama worn in the Shoguns palace during the Tokugawa
> period which restricted movement making attacks on
> others impossible. Also the short hakama worn in the
> Summer by some foot soldiers and attendants in the
> kamakura period.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Musashi
>
> P.s. I left out alot of other examples.
>
>
> --- KUM0 <kum0@...> wrote:
> > Konnichi-wa,
> >
> > It has been my experience of martial arts (for 11
> > years, through 8 different arts), that the samurai
> > used to wear them for all
> > of the above purposes, but also for one other.
> >
> > There is a sitting posture that the ninja adopted
> > when impersonating a samurai, so that it was easy to
> > move if attacked
> > unexpectantly, or preparing to attack unexpectantly.
> >
> > Although I can't reveal the seated posture, I can,
> > however, tell you about it.
> >
> > This seated posture looks identical to the casual
> > seated posture in modern day Japan, with the legs
> > crossed at the shins, and
> > knees almost resting on the ankles.
> >
> > This is still alive in martial arts that have
> > techniques adopted from the samurai arts. The hakama
> > hid whether or not they
> > were seated like this in particular, or _however_
> > they were seated in fact.
> >
> > Kumo.
> >
> > Natsu Kusa Ya
> > Tsuamono Domo Ga
> > Yume No Ato
> >
> > Basho.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: konos
> >
> > Besides it's ocassional apperance at the Edo Period
> > and in the hitatare of 12th century, hakama is not
> > obligatory. It's not a
> > daimyo's command. Nevertheless samurai were more or
> > less obliged to follow the "rich and famous" status
> > of the court they were
> > implicated in. First of all samurai were warriors.
> > So even the obi was the right dressing only if it
> > could carry tanto or
> > wakizashi.
> >
> > Greetings from Greece, especially to Amphipolis.
> > Konstantinos
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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----- Original Message -----
From: KUM0 <kum0@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] hakama


> Konnichi-wa,
>
> It has been my experience of martial arts (for 11 years, through 8
different arts), that the samurai used to wear them for all
> of the above purposes, but also for one other.
>
> There is a sitting posture that the ninja adopted when impersonating a
samurai, so that it was easy to move if attacked
> unexpectantly, or preparing to attack unexpectantly.
>
> Although I can't reveal the seated posture, I can, however, tell you about
it.
>
> This seated posture looks identical to the casual seated posture in modern
day Japan, with the legs crossed at the shins, and
> knees almost resting on the ankles.
>
> This is still alive in martial arts that have techniques adopted from the
samurai arts. The hakama hid whether or not they
> were seated like this in particular, or _however_ they were seated in
fact.
>
> Kumo.
>
> Natsu Kusa Ya
> Tsuamono Domo Ga
> Yume No Ato
>
> Basho.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: konos
>
> Besides it's ocassional apperance at the Edo Period and in the hitatare of
12th century, hakama is not obligatory. It's not a
> daimyo's command. Nevertheless samurai were more or less obliged to follow
the "rich and famous" status of the court they were
> implicated in. First of all samurai were warriors. So even the obi was the
right dressing only if it could carry tanto or
> wakizashi.
>
> Greetings from Greece, especially to Amphipolis.
> Konstantinos
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> Unexpected information! Does this movement has something to do with seiza
posture in zazen? Please answer only if you are permitted to.
Greetings form Greece
>

> I am sorry but I have practiced Budo for over 12 years
> of my life. I have to disagree. There are all kinds
> of . . . . .

> Regarding my last email, I don't have any issue with
> you, and your
> answer makes sense to me--- it is more of a tirade
> against the
> martial arts community in general.
>
>

> The hakama was designed to hide the foot movements of the samurai so
> that an opponent could not see them and predict the outcome of an
> attack so easily. That is all I know of their style choice it was
> more practical than aesthetic.
>
> "MNcoffey@..." <MNCoffey@...> wrote: I wish
> to apologize to the management since my last e-mail did not have
> anything to do with history. Now my question, I was hoping that
> somebody might know the history of the Hakama, like who started it,
> what year and most importantly why that I mean why did the samurai
> choose the hakama. I hope this question is not ment to be sent to a
> kendo forum. Also I can't find anything on the history of sojutsu. so
> any help on those two questions would be nice.thanks.-Martin Jr.
>

> The hakama was designed to hide the foot movements
> of the samurai so that an opponent could not see
> them and predict the outcome of an attack so easily.
> That is all I know of their style choice it was more
> practical than aesthetic.

> Thanks Rod. I had a frienf ask me what the hakama
> was used for and I
> did'nt know so thank you.

> --- ROD PAVEZ <grfkboyz@...> wrote:
>
>> The hakama was designed to hide the foot movements
>> of the samurai so that an opponent could not see
>> them and predict the outcome of an attack so easily.
>> That is all I know of their style choice it was more
>> practical than aesthetic.
>
> Rod, where did you get this from? I'm a little
> skeptical--it sounds like something out of Martial
> Arts Illustrated or something. Most images of samurai
> you see preparing for a battle or a duel have their
> hakama tied back with leggings to keep them out of the
> way (assuming they aren't in armor, which would keep
> the clothing out of the way by definition.) Kobakama,
> or shorter, tighter hakama, were frequently worn when
> "expecting action".
>
> Were hakama worn exclusively by the samurai class,
> then maybe I could see your answer making sense. But
> how would that explain nagabakama, worn by courtiers
> and samurai during court functions? I'm no clothing
> historian, but I know we've got some here. Tony? Lady
> Solveig? Care to enlighten us further?
>
> Of course, I could just look at Tony's website:
>
> http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/garb.html
>
> "Hakama worn by commoners and laborers in Heian were
> two panel, and typically only reached to the mid-calf
> or a bit lower. During the sixteenth century,
> low-class warriors often wore a knee-length two- or
> three-panel hakama which were sometimes called
> kobakama, a terminology problem as regular hakama were
> also called kobakama in the Edo period owing to the
> formal nagabakama being the “formal” norm."
>
> If hakama were being worn by commoners and laborers,
> then I hardly think a critical part of their design
> would be to hide the movement of the legs from an
> opponent.
>
> Continuing:
>
> "Earlier hakama, unlike modern martial arts hakama,
> had two clearly defined legs, rather than having the
> pleats overlapping left and right so that one can’t
> tell where one leg ends and the other begins. Another
> modern feature is the koshita, the solid panel at the
> small of the back. This seems to have appeared
> sometime in the early Edo period or at the earliest in
> the very late days of the sixteenth century, as
> earlier hakama were merely cut straight across the
> back as at the front."
>
> If these things were developed in the Edo period, and
> hakama were being worn in the Heian period, then they
> could hardly be part of the development of hakama.
>
> I'd still like to see what Tony and others have to
> say.

> The hakama was designed to hide the foot movements
> of the samurai so that an opponent could not see
> them and predict the outcome of an attack so easily.
> That is all I know of their style choice it was more
> practical than aesthetic.

> The hakama was designed to hide the foot movements
> of the samurai so that an opponent could not see
> them and predict the outcome of an attack so easily.
> That is all I know of their style choice it was more
> practical than aesthetic.

> Hi Nate:
> Again maybe I should have specified. I believe
> hakamas were used during duels thus adding more
> difficulty. Obviously on the battlefield this would
> have been a detriment but in a situation like a duel
> it would have been more proper.

> Regardless, the original question was about the
> origins of the hakama. The image you've got in your
> head is from the Edo period.

> Hello Nate,
>
> Thursday, January 19, 2006, 1:58:00 AM, you wrote:
>
> > Regardless, the original question was about the
> > origins of the hakama. The image you've got in
> your
> > head is from the Edo period.

>
> Here is something I've got from the "Online
> dictionary of history and
> traditions"
> (http://www.docoja.com:8080/jisho/search?

> Hope some pieces of this info might be useful to
> you, guys. And it is
> interesting that I also heard soe time ago from one
> of my friends that
> hakama was used to camouflage your legs' moves,
> but I never actually
> read about that...
>
>
> P.s. My first post to the group. Please, do not
> take too skeptical...
> Thanks in advance.

> I'm not sure what you are trying to say--you're proving my exact
> point. Rod's impression that the hakama were developed to hide the
> martial artist's legs in a duel is false; that is an Edo period
> image, whereas hakama were developed early enough to be depicted on
> haniwa, as your nice research points out.

> As for skepticism...lol. Can't help that.

> I did not try to say anything but that I would
> like to contribute to
> the conversation by providing some data not
> mentioned above...

>
> > As for skepticism...lol. Can't help that.
>
> That's fine, as long as it is righteous...
>

> Hello Nate,
>
> Thursday, January 19, 2006, 1:58:00 AM, you wrote:
>
> > Regardless, the original question was about the
> > origins of the hakama. The image you've got in your
> > head is from the Edo period.
>
>
> Here is something I've got from the "Online dictionary of history and
> traditions"
> (http://www.docoja.com:8080/jisho/search?dbname=histg&sword=hakama) :
>
> "As attested by Haniwa doll of Kofun period, origin of hakama
> (Japanese trousers) was very old. Under an influence of the Chinese
> civilization, the usage of hakama had declined during Heian period and
> replaced by kimono with a long skirt, especially among women. When
> samurai clans took the power in the middle ages, the usage of hakama
> became again popular among men. Hakama for women resurfaced during
> Meiji period as a girl's school uniform."
>
>
> Another source (http://www.shindai.com/articles/hakama.htm) states the
> following (+ some more info):
>
> "A hakama is the skirt-like pants that some aikidoka wear. It is a
> traditional piece of samurai clothing. The standard gi worn in aikido
> as well as in other martial arts such as Judo or Karate was originally
> underclothes. Wearing it is part of the tradition of (most schools of)
> aikido.
>
> The hakama were originally meant to protect a horseman's legs from
> brush, etc., - not unlike a cowboy's leather 'chaps'. Leather was hard
> to come by in Japan, so heavy cloth was used instead. After the
> samurai as a class dismounted and became more like foot-soldiers, they
> persisted in wearing horseman's garb because it set them apart and
> made them easily identifiable.
>
> There were different styles of hakama though. The type worn by today's
> martial artists - with "legs" - is called a joba hakama, (roughly,
> horseriding thing into which one steps). A hakama that was kind of
> like a tube skirt - no legs - another and the third was a very long
> version of the second. It was worn on visits to the Shogun or Emperor.
> The thing was about 12-15 feet long and was folded repeatedly and
> placed between the feet and posterior of the visitor. This
> necessitated their shikko ("knee walking") for their audience and made
> it extremely unlikely that they could hide a weapon (retainers suited
> them up) or rise quickly to make an attack."
>
>
>
> Hope some pieces of this info might be useful to you, guys. And it is
> interesting that I also heard soe time ago from one of my friends that
> hakama was used to camouflage your legs' moves, but I never actually
> read about that...
>
>
> P.s. My first post to the group. Please, do not take too skeptical...
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Yauheni Zamastsyanin mailto:yauheni.z@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
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>
>small note:as Yauheni Z noted,hakama was used by martial artists in

> small note:as Yauheni Z noted,hakama was used by martial artists in
> training(since edo-period)to hide body/leg movements and to hide
> "built".reg...jore