Samurai Battle Axe

I've never seen or heard of it, but does anyone know if any type of
battle axe was utilized in Japan during the sengoku period? On one
hand I'd think that it would be very effective against laquered
bamboo armour due to the crushing wieght of the axe blade, however I
wouldn't want to fight someone who is carrying a sword with an axe -
a heavy unbalanced (and slow) weapon like an axe couldn't stand up to
a well balanced katana, could it?

iganokami wrote:

> I've never seen or heard of it, but does anyone know if any type of
> battle axe was utilized in Japan during the sengoku period? On one
> hand I'd think that it would be very effective against laquered
> bamboo armour due to the crushing wieght of the axe blade, however I
> wouldn't want to fight someone who is carrying a sword with an axe -
> a heavy unbalanced (and slow) weapon like an axe couldn't stand up to
> a well balanced katana, could it?
>

Armour! Was! Not! Bamboo!

For all it's frightening look, the ono doesn't seem to have had much use. It
wasn't a standard weapon the armies were equipped with. I believe that, like
the tetsubo, it was something that had been more in use earlier when armies
were less rigidly made.

Tony

LOL! I'll have to add the tag to my HTML list!
sorry, just checked your pages, and sure enough:
"One thing that needs to be addressed first is probably my biggest
button: Japanese armour was never made of wood or bamboo. It was
either leather, steel, or a combination of the two."
Well, with that out of the way, it is a bit off subject, but would an
axe be any good in battle? Seems to me it would be like wielding a
big hammer - swing - miss - stagger - readjust grip - repeat.
Obviously axes existed in Japan - they had to cut firewood somehow,
but was the reason it didn't appear in battle because of its
unweildlyness (my new word for the day)? Or did they just not think
of it as a weapon?

>
> Armour! Was! Not! Bamboo!
>
> For all it's frightening look, the ono doesn't seem to have had

much use. It

> wasn't a standard weapon the armies were equipped with. I believe

that, like

> the tetsubo, it was something that had been more in use earlier

when armies

> were less rigidly made.
>
> Tony

iganokami wrote:

> LOL! I'll have to add the tag to my HTML list!
> sorry, just checked your pages, and sure enough:
> "One thing that needs to be addressed first is probably my biggest
> button: Japanese armour was never made of wood or bamboo. It was
> either leather, steel, or a combination of the two."
> Well, with that out of the way, it is a bit off subject, but would an
> axe be any good in battle? Seems to me it would be like wielding a
> big hammer - swing - miss - stagger - readjust grip - repeat.
> Obviously axes existed in Japan - they had to cut firewood somehow,
> but was the reason it didn't appear in battle because of its
> unweildlyness (my new word for the day)? Or did they just not think
> of it as a weapon?
>

It was definitely a weapon. The thing is, as you suggest, was it an
*efficient* weapon? It clearly could be a devastating one, but it would be
one hard to wield and control. Swords and lances made for much better
infantry weapons. Otherwise *all* our infantrymen might be carrying bazookas
instead of M-16s.

Tony

Regarding the non-bambooness of armor, for the heck of it I did a
search in 'google' for 'bamboo armor' and came up with this:
http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/samurai
_armor.html

It states: "The armor was constructed from bamboo, cloth and
metal. Unlike its better known counterpart, the medieval armor, the
Japanese example was much lighter, which provided for ease of
movement but compromised protection. The armor had to be light weight
because the Samurai would often engage into hand to hand combat,
requiring fast and precise movements. ***The majority of the armor
was made from bamboo***." (asterisks are my addition).

Don't you just love the internet...

> It was definitely a weapon. The thing is, as you suggest, was it an
> *efficient* weapon? It clearly could be a devastating one, but it

would be

> one hard to wield and control. Swords and lances made for much

better

> infantry weapons. Otherwise *all* our infantrymen might be carrying

bazookas

> instead of M-16s.
>
> Tony

iganokami wrote:

> Regarding the non-bambooness of armor, for the heck of it I did a
> search in 'google' for 'bamboo armor' and came up with this:
> http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/samurai
> _armor.html
>
> It states: "The armor was constructed from bamboo, cloth and
> metal. Unlike its better known counterpart, the medieval armor, the
> Japanese example was much lighter, which provided for ease of
> movement but compromised protection. The armor had to be light weight
> because the Samurai would often engage into hand to hand combat,
> requiring fast and precise movements. ***The majority of the armor
> was made from bamboo***." (asterisks are my addition).
>
> Don't you just love the internet...

Usually, but not always.

There are idiots under every rock.

Excuse me, I have to go stick my finger down my throat....


Tony

i would think a fist would be pretty effective against laquered bamboo
armor.

-c


From: "iganokami" <fredjnsn@...>
Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Samurai Battle Axe
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 15:59:16 -0000

I've never seen or heard of it, but does anyone know if any type of
battle axe was utilized in Japan during the sengoku period? On one
hand I'd think that it would be very effective against laquered
bamboo armour due to the crushing wieght of the axe blade, however I
wouldn't want to fight someone who is carrying a sword with an axe -
a heavy unbalanced (and slow) weapon like an axe couldn't stand up to
a well balanced katana, could it?



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On the use of the battleaxe, it may or may not have
been used but in terms of its use against a swordsman
it could be a very effective weapon in the hands of
the right men . Probably no equivalent corps existed
within Sengoku Japan but the value of the battleaxe is
demonstrated by the Anglo-Danish/Saxon Huscarls
introduced into eleventh-century England by Cnut, or
the Varangian Guard of the Byzantine emperors . I
have never heard of its useage within Japan, but its
value should not be discounted, even against a katana
wielding swordsman .
Michael Lorimer


--- Cameron Slayden
wrote:

---

i would think a fist would be pretty effective against
laquered bamboo

armor.



-c





From: "iganokami"


Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com

To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [samuraihistory] Samurai Battle Axe

Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 15:59:16 -0000



I've never seen or heard of it, but does anyone know
if any type of

battle axe was utilized in Japan during the sengoku
period? On one

hand I'd think that it would be very effective against
laquered

bamboo armour due to the crushing wieght of the axe
blade, however I

wouldn't want to fight someone who is carrying a sword
with an axe -

a heavy unbalanced (and slow) weapon like an axe
couldn't stand up to

a well balanced katana, could it?







Samurai Archives: href="http://www.samurai-archives.com">http://www.samurai-archives.com

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> iganokami wrote:
>
> > I've never seen or heard of it, but does anyone know if any type of
> > battle axe was utilized in Japan during the sengoku period?

From The Katchu Bugu Jiten by Sasama Yoshihiko;

Masakari also read etsu. When used for battle it was called Masakari or
fuetsu (big axe) when used for wood cutting, ono.

The name (reading) masakari some believe comes from the similar sounding
"ma saki wari" or "cuts dead straight".

In ancient China an "ono" was presented by rulers to their lead generals as a
symbol of their commision to subdue enemy forces...

They were used to break down obstalces, bamboo fences and stakes, or to attack
the walls and gates of fortifications. (He places them as Kamakura period
weapons-tch)

The kogata masakari had a 3 or 4 shaku handle with a 3 sun wide blade

The Omasakari had a 1shaku blade.

These are mentioned in the Taikeiki and other old chronicles...

( I have seen these illustrated but never seen an actual "masakari" in any
museum. There is a book on weapons that should have at least one example but I
can't seem to locate it-tch)

the ono, i guess ill use this one post to refrence the
whole subject.
a couples of years ago i purchased an ono that was
told was based on measurements from a period piece.
that being said i cant know for certain that it is an
accurate replica. The ono i have is mounted on a
approx. 5ft pole, per orional specs and it is
prohibitively heavy. for those who dont know me,,, im
not exactly small at 5' 11" and 300 lbs and i find it
excedingly too heavy to use well. it would be
excellent in destoying wooden structures as your
source mentions. but i personally would never take it
on an open battlefield. its only application there i
can think of would be to give it to relatively
untrained men figuring that if they do hit something
skill, placement or knowledge will have little to do
with it so just do maximum damage. and you can guess
how well that would work.
the masakari ive seen seem to be more odf a standard
one handed axe with a long back spike. not my favorite
type of weapon but practical.
--kiyohara
--- Tom Helm <toryu@...> wrote:

>
>
> > iganokami wrote:
> >
> > > I've never seen or heard of it, but does anyone
> know if any type of
> > > battle axe was utilized in Japan during the
> sengoku period?
>
> From The Katchu Bugu Jiten by Sasama Yoshihiko;
>
> Masakari also read etsu. When used for battle it
> was called Masakari or
> fuetsu (big axe) when used for wood cutting, ono.
>
> The name (reading) masakari some believe comes
> from the similar sounding
> "ma saki wari" or "cuts dead straight".
>
> In ancient China an "ono" was presented by rulers to
> their lead generals as a
> symbol of their commision to subdue enemy forces...
>
> They were used to break down obstalces, bamboo
> fences and stakes, or to attack
> the walls and gates of fortifications. (He places
> them as Kamakura period
> weapons-tch)
>
> The kogata masakari had a 3 or 4 shaku handle with a
> 3 sun wide blade
>
> The Omasakari had a 1shaku blade.
>
> These are mentioned in the Taikeiki and other old
> chronicles...
>
> ( I have seen these illustrated but never seen an
> actual "masakari" in any
> museum. There is a book on weapons that should have
> at least one example but I
> can't seem to locate it-tch)
>
>
>
>
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