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Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

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#7457 [2005-08-12 13:45:08]

Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by takayama_hara

I am having trouble with the exact meaning of a term used in the
book "Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power". In the section
called "Ueda Castle", on page 43 the sentence reads "He was under
orders to "mask" the loyalist stronghold of Ueda castle...". I have an
idea what is meant by bask but could anyone (author included) clarify
that term for me?

Also, the Sanada Masayuki is the same as the Takeda general... correct?

Thanks,

Michael

[Next #7459]

#7459 [2005-08-12 20:27:13]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by ltdomer98

--- Michael <takayama_hara@...> wrote:

> I am having trouble with the exact meaning of a term
> used in the
> book "Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for
> power". In the section
> called "Ueda Castle", on page 43 the sentence reads
> "He was under
> orders to "mask" the loyalist stronghold of Ueda
> castle...". I have an
> idea what is meant by bask but could anyone (author
> included) clarify
> that term for me?
>
> Also, the Sanada Masayuki is the same as the Takeda
> general... correct?

"Masking" is the same as "guarding" or "covering" in a
modern military doctrinal context--the idea was to
leave a force strong enough to prevent the Sanada from
leaving Ueda Castle and attacking the the Tokugawa
main bottle in the rear.

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#7460 [2005-08-12 21:27:32]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by takayama_hara

So he was performing a screening action... but he was
suppose to continue moving and caused trouble when he
actually stopped and laid seige.

So he was supposed to pass by, but keep Sanada in
check (like a fake pass in football)?

--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- Michael <takayama_hara@...> wrote:
>
> > I am having trouble with the exact meaning of a
> term
> > used in the
> > book "Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for
> > power". In the section
> > called "Ueda Castle", on page 43 the sentence
> reads
> > "He was under
> > orders to "mask" the loyalist stronghold of Ueda
> > castle...". I have an
> > idea what is meant by bask but could anyone
> (author
> > included) clarify
> > that term for me?
> >
> > Also, the Sanada Masayuki is the same as the
> Takeda
> > general... correct?
>
> "Masking" is the same as "guarding" or "covering" in
> a
> modern military doctrinal context--the idea was to
> leave a force strong enough to prevent the Sanada
> from
> leaving Ueda Castle and attacking the the Tokugawa
> main bottle in the rear.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>




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#7461 [2005-08-12 21:33:33]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by ltdomer98

--- Michael Wood <takayama_hara@...> wrote:

> So he was performing a screening action... but he
> was
> suppose to continue moving and caused trouble when
> he
> actually stopped and laid seige.

Essentially, yes--he was supposed to leave a covering
force (bigger than a screening force--more stopping
power, US Army doctrinally speaking) and continue with
his main body to the battlefield at Sekigahara. The
trouble was that he decided to take Ueda-jo, and
missed the battle at Sekigahara altogether.


> So he was supposed to pass by, but keep Sanada in
> check (like a fake pass in football)?

Um, yeah, though not sure I agree with that football
reference. It wasn't a misdirection kind of thing--he
didn't fake one way, and go another. It's more like
he was supposed to send the fullback to block the
linebacker (Sanada), but sent the whole offensive
line.

>
> --- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- Michael <takayama_hara@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I am having trouble with the exact meaning of a
> > term
> > > used in the
> > > book "Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for
> > > power". In the section
> > > called "Ueda Castle", on page 43 the sentence
> > reads
> > > "He was under
> > > orders to "mask" the loyalist stronghold of Ueda
> > > castle...". I have an
> > > idea what is meant by bask but could anyone
> > (author
> > > included) clarify
> > > that term for me?
> > >
> > > Also, the Sanada Masayuki is the same as the
> > Takeda
> > > general... correct?
> >
> > "Masking" is the same as "guarding" or "covering"
> in
> > a
> > modern military doctrinal context--the idea was to
> > leave a force strong enough to prevent the Sanada
> > from
> > leaving Ueda Castle and attacking the the Tokugawa
> > main bottle in the rear.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>




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#7462 [2005-08-12 22:19:13]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by yusatatsuaki

I wouldn't hade thought that I would see the day when football and samurai be brought together so...artfully. It proves that a person is surprised at least one time a day...

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:


--- Michael Wood <takayama_hara@...> wrote:

> So he was performing a screening action... but he
> was
> suppose to continue moving and caused trouble when
> he
> actually stopped and laid seige.

Essentially, yes--he was supposed to leave a covering
force (bigger than a screening force--more stopping
power, US Army doctrinally speaking) and continue with
his main body to the battlefield at Sekigahara. The
trouble was that he decided to take Ueda-jo, and
missed the battle at Sekigahara altogether.


> So he was supposed to pass by, but keep Sanada in
> check (like a fake pass in football)?

Um, yeah, though not sure I agree with that football
reference. It wasn't a misdirection kind of thing--he
didn't fake one way, and go another. It's more like
he was supposed to send the fullback to block the
linebacker (Sanada), but sent the whole offensive
line.

>
> --- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- Michael <takayama_hara@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I am having trouble with the exact meaning of a
> > term
> > > used in the
> > > book "Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for
> > > power". In the section
> > > called "Ueda Castle", on page 43 the sentence
> > reads
> > > "He was under
> > > orders to "mask" the loyalist stronghold of Ueda
> > > castle...". I have an
> > > idea what is meant by bask but could anyone
> > (author
> > > included) clarify
> > > that term for me?
> > >
> > > Also, the Sanada Masayuki is the same as the
> > Takeda
> > > general... correct?
> >
> > "Masking" is the same as "guarding" or "covering"
> in
> > a
> > modern military doctrinal context--the idea was to
> > leave a force strong enough to prevent the Sanada
> > from
> > leaving Ueda Castle and attacking the the Tokugawa
> > main bottle in the rear.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>




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#7463 [2005-08-12 22:04:23]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by takayama_hara

I get it now, much better analogy.

Thanks

--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- Michael Wood <takayama_hara@...> wrote:
>
> > So he was performing a screening action... but he
> > was
> > suppose to continue moving and caused trouble when
> > he
> > actually stopped and laid seige.
>
> Essentially, yes--he was supposed to leave a
> covering
> force (bigger than a screening force--more stopping
> power, US Army doctrinally speaking) and continue
> with
> his main body to the battlefield at Sekigahara. The
> trouble was that he decided to take Ueda-jo, and
> missed the battle at Sekigahara altogether.
>
>
> > So he was supposed to pass by, but keep Sanada in
> > check (like a fake pass in football)?
>
> Um, yeah, though not sure I agree with that football
> reference. It wasn't a misdirection kind of
> thing--he
> didn't fake one way, and go another. It's more like
> he was supposed to send the fullback to block the
> linebacker (Sanada), but sent the whole offensive
> line.
>
> >
> > --- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Michael <takayama_hara@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I am having trouble with the exact meaning of
> a
> > > term
> > > > used in the
> > > > book "Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for
> > > > power". In the section
> > > > called "Ueda Castle", on page 43 the sentence
> > > reads
> > > > "He was under
> > > > orders to "mask" the loyalist stronghold of
> Ueda
> > > > castle...". I have an
> > > > idea what is meant by bask but could anyone
> > > (author
> > > > included) clarify
> > > > that term for me?
> > > >
> > > > Also, the Sanada Masayuki is the same as the
> > > Takeda
> > > > general... correct?
> > >
> > > "Masking" is the same as "guarding" or
> "covering"
> > in
> > > a
> > > modern military doctrinal context--the idea was
> to
> > > leave a force strong enough to prevent the
> Sanada
> > > from
> > > leaving Ueda Castle and attacking the the
> Tokugawa
> > > main bottle in the rear.
> > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________
> > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home
> page
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>




____________________________________________________
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[Previous #7462] [Next #7464]

#7464 [2005-08-13 01:33:01]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by ltdomer98

--- Kenneth Kruse <yusatatsuaki@...> wrote:

> I wouldn't hade thought that I would see the day
> when football and samurai be brought together
> so...artfully. It proves that a person is surprised
> at least one time a day...

Well, I'm passionate about 3 things: Japanese history,
football, and semantics. So that's what happens when
you combine the three...



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#7465 [2005-08-13 13:37:42]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by chunjouonimusha

Would have use Hockey myself; but that is just me. But if he did not show up
for the battle at all.. What impact did that have on the outcome... since he
was suppose to be a decoy but then regroup witht he main force.. just a
thought...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #7464] [Next #7467]

#7467 [2005-08-13 13:46:13]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by chunjouonimusha

Sorry that was a dumb post. Da what was the outcome... I ment that I was
sure that this had a great impact on the Battle...

Still like Hockey... lol... Thansk to all of those question and replies. I
love this forum...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #7465] [Next #7469]

#7469 [2005-08-14 19:55:31]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by ltdomer98

--- seikei7248@... wrote:

> Would have use Hockey myself; but that is just me.
> But if he did not show up
> for the battle at all.. What impact did that have on
> the outcome... since he
> was suppose to be a decoy but then regroup witht he
> main force.. just a
> thought...

He wasn't a decoy--that was my whole point. It wasn't
a feint to divert enemy forces--he was to leave enough
forces to physically prevent the Sanada from affecting
the battle, and hurry with his main body. He didn't do
that--he kept his entire force there at Ueda, causing
all of his soldiers (50,000, IIRC) to miss the main
battle at Sekigahara. The important effect was that it
kept a lot of Tokugawa forces out of the battle. Being
as Tokugawa won, it's merely a footnote. Had he lost,
it could have been devastating.



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#7470 [2005-08-14 19:58:23]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by ltdomer98

--- seikei7248@... wrote:

> Sorry that was a dumb post. Da what was the
> outcome... I ment that I was
> sure that this had a great impact on the Battle...
>
> Still like Hockey... lol... Thansk to all of those
> question and replies. I
> love this forum...

Okay, hockey:

You're playing a game against another team, and
they've got one winger who isn't deadly, but has the
good game now and then, and deserves to have one
defenseman tail him the whole game. Instead, you have
your whole defensive line follow that one guy around,
leaving the rest of his team's offense open. Overkill,
since the guy isn't all that good, really--and you've
got guys missing in the areas where they could make plays.

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#7471 [2005-08-14 21:38:44]

RE: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by angushaynes

> Okay, hockey:
>
> You're playing a game against another team, and
> they've got one winger who isn't deadly, but has the
> good game now and then, and deserves to have one
> defenseman tail him the whole game. Instead, you have
> your whole defensive line follow that one guy around,
> leaving the rest of his team's offense open. Overkill,
> since the guy isn't all that good, really--and you've
> got guys missing in the areas where they could make plays.

I'll try one that perhaps more people might be familiar with these days?

OK, so you've got the NHL owners (Tokugawa) and the NHL players
(Sanada). The NHL players want a higher share of revenue (land), while
the NHL owners want to limit the amount of revenue that the players can
have, in order to stop the NHL players individually taking up a large
percentage of the total revenue of the NHL owners.

So, rather than continuing on with the season while devoting a portion
of resources to deal with the situation, a lock-out is put in effect and
all resources are used up to deal with the problem, potentially having a
fatal effect on the future of the NHL.

HTH!
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[Previous #7470] [Next #7472]

#7472 [2005-08-14 20:27:25]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by yusatatsuaki

I understood that better...I am not all involved or interested in mainstream sports

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- seikei7248@... wrote:

> Sorry that was a dumb post. Da what was the
> outcome... I ment that I was
> sure that this had a great impact on the Battle...
>
> Still like Hockey... lol... Thansk to all of those
> question and replies. I
> love this forum...

Okay, hockey:

You're playing a game against another team, and
they've got one winger who isn't deadly, but has the
good game now and then, and deserves to have one
defenseman tail him the whole game. Instead, you have
your whole defensive line follow that one guy around,
leaving the rest of his team's offense open. Overkill,
since the guy isn't all that good, really--and you've
got guys missing in the areas where they could make plays.

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#7473 [2005-08-14 21:06:19]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by chunjouonimusha

Thanks for the post... Good information... I guess decoy was a bad choice of
words...

but since it did not really effect the main battle...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #7472] [Next #7474]

#7474 [2005-08-14 21:12:00]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by chunjouonimusha

The sadpart is I have seen this done in games.. lol... but thanks for he
post..

good to see that somone knows about hockey also....kinda like Samurias on
Ice.. lol...

but i am gald to learn things about this battle that i did not know; most
interesting....

Had the outcme been different; where would Japan be now....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #7473] [Next #7476]

#7476 [2005-08-15 02:19:50]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by ltdomer98

--- seikei7248@... wrote:

> The sadpart is I have seen this done in games..
> lol... but thanks for he
> post..
>
> good to see that somone knows about hockey
> also....kinda like Samurias on
> Ice.. lol...
>
> but i am gald to learn things about this battle that
> i did not know; most
> interesting....
>
> Had the outcme been different; where would Japan be
> now....

:) I know almost nothing about hockey, as I grew up in
Florida. However, I've got friends who are NHL
players.



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#7477 [2005-08-15 02:21:39]

RE: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by ltdomer98

--- "Haynes, A (Angus)" <angus.haynes@...>
wrote:

>>
> I'll try one that perhaps more people might be
> familiar with these days?
>
> OK, so you've got the NHL owners (Tokugawa) and the
> NHL players
> (Sanada)....
>
> So, rather than continuing on with the season while
> devoting a portion
> of resources to deal with the situation, a lock-out
> is put in effect and
> all resources are used up to deal with the problem,
> potentially having a
> fatal effect on the future of the NHL.

LOL!!!

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#7479 [2005-08-15 05:19:36]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by takayama_hara

It didn't effect the overall outcome of the battle,
but it probably did effect the number of overall
casualties on the Tokagawa side. A larger force (or a
large force showing up at the proper time) might have
cause a quicker rout from the loyalists there by
ending the battle quicker.

Although since the rout first seemed to occur with the
Shimazu, and they are not known for their weak
spirits, perhaps it would not have had an effect
afterall.

--- seikei7248@... wrote:

> Thanks for the post... Good information... I guess
> decoy was a bad choice of
> words...
>
> but since it did not really effect the main
> battle...
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>




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#7480 [2005-08-15 04:56:36]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by chunjouonimusha

Hockey and Lacrosse here. Good to hear that someone else is into something
else also... Japnese Histroy also is kinda out of the mainstream. But I am
blwon away but some of the knowledge in this forum. Thansk for all the post. I
find them intersting and great learning experience.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#7481 [2005-08-15 20:15:48]

Re: Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by kurotatsunoshi

" > It didn't effect the overall outcome of the battle,
> but it probably did effect the number of overall
> casualties on the Tokagawa side. A larger force (or a
> large force showing up at the proper time) might have
> cause a quicker rout from the loyalists there by
> ending the battle quicker.
>
> Although since the rout first seemed to occur with the
> Shimazu, and they are not known for their weak
> spirits, perhaps it would not have had an effect
> afterall."

Tokugawa had 30,000 of his own troops (and several thousand more
under Ikeda, Asano, et al) present on the battlefield that were never
engaged, so the size of the attacking force was not a problem.
The rout began shortly after Kobayakawa turned traitor and other
nearby Western troops also defected, overunning Otani and getting
into the rear of the Konishi and Ukita forces (who had been bearing
the brunt of the Eastern assault). The Shimazu had been holding their
ground quite well and only left the battlefield when the Ukita and
Konishi forces broke up and the Ishida forces had fled. Out of the
1500 Shimazu troops, very few survived the retreat.

[Previous #7480] [Next #7482]

#7482 [2005-08-15 22:23:36]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by yusatatsuaki

I think only 50 or 60 survived out of the Shimazu

Randy Schadel <ayamechiba@...> wrote:
" > It didn't effect the overall outcome of the battle,
> but it probably did effect the number of overall
> casualties on the Tokagawa side. A larger force (or a
> large force showing up at the proper time) might have
> cause a quicker rout from the loyalists there by
> ending the battle quicker.
>
> Although since the rout first seemed to occur with the
> Shimazu, and they are not known for their weak
> spirits, perhaps it would not have had an effect
> afterall."

Tokugawa had 30,000 of his own troops (and several thousand more
under Ikeda, Asano, et al) present on the battlefield that were never
engaged, so the size of the attacking force was not a problem.
The rout began shortly after Kobayakawa turned traitor and other
nearby Western troops also defected, overunning Otani and getting
into the rear of the Konishi and Ukita forces (who had been bearing
the brunt of the Eastern assault). The Shimazu had been holding their
ground quite well and only left the battlefield when the Ukita and
Konishi forces broke up and the Ishida forces had fled. Out of the
1500 Shimazu troops, very few survived the retreat.




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#7483 [2005-08-16 02:06:14]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by tutor2000

--- Kenneth Kruse <yusatatsuaki@...> wrote:

> I wouldn't hade thought that I would see the day
> when football and samurai be brought together
> so...artfully. It proves that a person is surprised
> at least one time a day...

Wonder what Sun Tzu would say about football

Rick

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#7486 [2005-08-16 11:09:45]

Re: [samuraihistory] Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by yusatatsuaki

"Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc" <tutor2000@...> wrote:


--- Kenneth Kruse <yusatatsuaki@...> wrote:

> I wouldn't hade thought that I would see the day
> when football and samurai be brought together
> so...artfully. It proves that a person is surprised
> at least one time a day...

Wonder what Sun Tzu would say about football

Rick

I don't think he would say it's the most important affair of state :)



NEW AFFILIATE PROGRAM - Step by Step Learn Internal Energy Strikes DVD
Increase Your Punching Power 50% to 100%
http://www.KirkhamsEbooks.com/Videos

UPDATED! Workout Timer Plays Music or Tada Try it Out http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/KirkhamsEbooks2
/files/MartialArtsSoftware/

WARNING TO PARENTS
http://starbulletin.com/2004/08/12/news/story3.html




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#7487 [2005-08-16 16:25:00]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Sekigahara 1600 - The final struggle for power

by chunjouonimusha

Interesting post and insihgtful... I will have to get this book and learn
more, tahnks for the post and information. The good side of the battle is that
it somewaht put and end to the civil wars winthin Janpan... I am thinig that
the down side is that once in power; Japan shut herself off almost eniterly
from the outside world. Leaving her behind the rest of the world and it's
advancements. to some it may have been a good thing; but looking at Japan after
the fall of the towkagawa fealm; Japan had alot of catching up to do... ie
after the landing of Perry.


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