Re: Tales of the Taira Clan

I watched this movie last night. Can anyone tell me what Kiyomori's
parents address him as? It sounds like Heita: is this a title (eldest son??)
or a family name?

Incidentally, with reference to a couple of other threads, the word used
in this film for clan is "ichimon" and what is translated in the subtitles
as "samurai" seems to be invariably "bushi."

I thought Kurosawa might have been responsible for popularising
samurai as a word in the West, but in fact the early writers like Satow
and Mitford (1870s) all use it as a term for the daimyo's retainers, and
already seem to invest it with a great deal of romantic feeling (see
Tales of Old Japan and A Diplomat in Japan) which they presumably
picked up from contemporary Japanese. I don't know enough about
Edo period to know how the two words were used then and what
difference there was. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,

Gillian

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Thanks for pointing this film out, I hadn't heard of it and it sounds
interesting, any clues as to where I could track down a copy? Amazon
comes up blank. Anybody have any other suggestions for films from this
era of Japanese history?

Also, thanks for the info on bushi/samurai. I seem to vaguely remember
Eiko Ikegami mentioning it briefly in the introduction to 'Taming of the
Samurai', which I'll check when I get home. I had thought that prior to
the Tokugawa Bakufu bushi was the preferred term, where as during the
Edo period the preferred term was samurai, as 'one who serves' was a
perhaps more the image the Bakufu was looking to promote than 'warrior'.
'Samurai' seems to carry more prestige with it. I don't think I've ever
read anything suggesting that though.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gillian Rubinstein [mailto:gillian@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 9 March 2005 9:38 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Tales of the Taira Clan



I watched this movie last night. Can anyone tell me what Kiyomori's
parents address him as? It sounds like Heita: is this a title (eldest
son??)
or a family name?

Incidentally, with reference to a couple of other threads, the word used

in this film for clan is "ichimon" and what is translated in the
subtitles
as "samurai" seems to be invariably "bushi."

I thought Kurosawa might have been responsible for popularising
samurai as a word in the West, but in fact the early writers like Satow
and Mitford (1870s) all use it as a term for the daimyo's retainers, and

already seem to invest it with a great deal of romantic feeling (see
Tales of Old Japan and A Diplomat in Japan) which they presumably
picked up from contemporary Japanese. I don't know enough about
Edo period to know how the two words were used then and what
difference there was. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,

Gillian

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Gillian Rubinstein wrote:

> I watched this movie last night. Can anyone tell me what Kiyomori's
> parents address him as? It sounds like Heita: is this a title (eldest son??)
> or a family name?

The oldest son is usually named (in the family) as Ichiro or Taro. To this is
often added a sort of protheme that is either auspicious (Dai=big, Kin=gold,
Ryu=dragon) or showing attachment to one of the ancient houses (Tou=Fujiwara,
Gen=Minamoto, Kitsu=Tachibana)... in this case, it's "Hei" for Taira, and the
"-ro" is dropped. Essentially, its his name for use within the family and by
close childhood friends.

> Incidentally, with reference to a couple of other threads, the word used
> in this film for clan is "ichimon" and what is translated in the subtitles
> as "samurai" seems to be invariably "bushi."

Ichimon is the common word translated as "clan" these days.

> I thought Kurosawa might have been responsible for popularising
> samurai as a word in the West, but in fact the early writers like Satow
> and Mitford (1870s) all use it as a term for the daimyo's retainers, and
> already seem to invest it with a great deal of romantic feeling (see
> Tales of Old Japan and A Diplomat in Japan) which they presumably
> picked up from contemporary Japanese. I don't know enough about
> Edo period to know how the two words were used then and what
> difference there was. Does anyone have any ideas?

There was no difference. Bushi just sounded more fancy, being a Sino-Japanese
word -- much as an Englishman who's a knight might like to style himself as a
chevalier.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

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http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

>
> Tony, thanks for the information about "heita". I found it really

fascinating.

Angus, I don't know where you live so can't help you much. Tales of
the Taira Clan and other films by Mizoguchi Kenji are in the British Film
Library Sales Catalogue, along with some Kurosawa, Ichikawa etc. It's
not huge selection. They are around fifteen pounds - quite expensive. I
actually live in South Australia and borrow these and other Japanese
videos from the State Library. It's a great system.

It's a fine movie, set in the 12th century at the time when the bushi/
samurai are about to come to power, very beautifully filmed and acted.
The costumes, and art direction in general, are wonderful.

I think Tales of the Yin-Yang Masters also gives a very good feel for
Heian period settings and clothes etc.

Cheers,

Gillian

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--- Gillian Rubinstein <gillian@...>
wrote:

> I watched this movie last night. Can anyone tell me
> what Kiyomori's
> parents address him as? It sounds like Heita: is
> this a title (eldest son??)
> or a family name?

No, it was his name. Yoshikawa's "Shin-Heike
Monogatari" explains it--it was his yobina. Most
samurai had several names. The yobina was what the
family members and others "familiar" with the person
would call them. For example, Minamoto Yoshitsune was
"Kurou" (9th Son), so his full name would be written
as Minamoto Kurou Yoshitsune. Usually you see these in
names having to do with either birth order (Jiro,
Saburo, etc) or will be names ending in -hei/bei or
-e'emon, etc. It can be frustrating when trying to
track individuals through historical texts, because it
may refer to a person in one place as Kiyomori, the
next as Heita, the next as Rokuhara-dono....etc.

Nate

















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Hi

I was wondering if anyone knew then what the names
would be say from 1st son to 9th son.

thanks

paul


--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

---------------------------------

--- Gillian Rubinstein <gillian@...>
wrote:

> I watched this movie last night. Can anyone tell me
> what Kiyomori's
> parents address him as? It sounds like Heita: is
> this a title (eldest son??)
> or a family name?

No, it was his name. Yoshikawa's "Shin-Heike
Monogatari" explains it--it was his yobina. Most
samurai had several names. The yobina was what the
family members and others "familiar" with the person
would call them. For example, Minamoto Yoshitsune was
"Kurou" (9th Son), so his full name would be written
as Minamoto Kurou Yoshitsune. Usually you see these in
names having to do with either birth order (Jiro,
Saburo, etc) or will be names ending in -hei/bei or
-e'emon, etc. It can be frustrating when trying to
track individuals through historical texts, because it
may refer to a person in one place as Kiyomori, the
next as Heita, the next as Rokuhara-dono....etc.

Nate

















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Richardson Paul wrote:

> Hi
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew then what the names
> would be say from 1st son to 9th son.

Read the "names" page on my Online Japanese miscellany for more on Japanese
names than you ever wanted to know.

The miscellany can be found linked from the homepage in my sig. below.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder