Japanese Samurai History - About Saigo Takamori

#6625 [2005-01-28 08:38:51]

About Saigo Takamori

by real_fatty

Hi all.
I'm writing my graduation thesis on Saigo Takamori.
Does anybody know why he was perdoned by Hisamitsu and recalled from
his second exile on 1864?
All I found is that Okubo and others asked it to the hanshu.
Other opinions?
Thanks.

PS:Sorry for my English, may be my Japanese is better :P

[Next #6630]

#6630 [2005-01-30 14:29:43]

Re: [samuraihistory] About Saigo Takamori

by gilliru

> Interesting question. Do you think Hisamitsu was discouraged by the

failure of koubu-gattai to advance Satsuma's interests and realised he
need Saigo's talents to represent the han? (Saigo was sent almost
immediately to Kyoto.) Jansen (Sakamoto Ryouma and the Meiji
Restoration p.191) says that at this time toubaku was being expressed
much more in Satsuma: maybe the Choushuu situation and general
increase in anti-bakufu feeling also influenced Hisamitsu's decision.

Perhaps one of the Oukubo biographies would shed more light on this.
Does your university library have them?

Gillian

>
>
> Hi all.
> I'm writing my graduation thesis on Saigo Takamori.
> Does anybody know why he was perdoned by Hisamitsu and recalled

from

> his second exile on 1864?
> All I found is that Okubo and others asked it to the hanshu.
> Other opinions?
> Thanks.
>
> PS:Sorry for my English, may be my Japanese is better :P
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
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[Previous #6625] [Next #6632]

#6632 [2005-01-30 15:02:17]

Re: About Saigo Takamori

by real_fatty

So, do you think that the growing anti-bakufu and anti-western
feelings (and the failure of koubo-gattai, of course) made Hisamitsu
aware of Saigo influence over young shishi?
So that influence was first the cause of Saigo's exile, and then the
cause of his appointment in Kyoto?

We don't have so much books in my University in Italy on this
subjec: I will look for Okubo biographies, but I don't think we got
something more than 'Craig & Shively, Personality in Japanese
history'.
If you have more opinions on this, please let me know and I will
thank you at the end of my thesis ;)

Domenico

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Gillian Rubinstein
wrote:

> Interesting question. Do you think Hisamitsu was discouraged by

the

> failure of koubu-gattai to advance Satsuma's interests and

realised he

> need Saigo's talents to represent the han? (Saigo was sent almost
> immediately to Kyoto.) Jansen (Sakamoto Ryouma and the Meiji
> Restoration p.191) says that at this time toubaku was being

expressed

> much more in Satsuma: maybe the Choushuu situation and general
> increase in anti-bakufu feeling also influenced Hisamitsu's

decision.

>
> Perhaps one of the Oukubo biographies would shed more light on

this.

> Does your university library have them?
>
> Gillian

[Previous #6630] [Next #6634]

#6634 [2005-01-30 18:04:33]

Re: [samuraihistory] About Saigo Takamori

by soshuju

Fatty et al-
During Saigo's exile on Okinoerabu-jima some important events
took place, Satsuma fought with the English, Katamori was placed in
charge of security in Kyoto by the bakufu and Choshu was involved in
actions that brought them to the fore. Katsura kogoro (Kido Koin)
acting for Choshu's interests was seen as a powerful personality
influencing the court and Satsuma Loyalists in the capitol saw
themselves as floundering and in need of a leader. They banded
together and pushed Hisamitsu to bring Saigo back or threatened group
suicide. Faced with their determination Hisamitsu gave permission for
them to petition the Han Government for his pardon.

"Sayu mina kashiko nari to iu ka. Shikaraba sunawachi gumai no
Hisamitsu hitori kore wo saegiru no wa koron ni arazu. Yoroshiku
Taishiko no kessai wo koubeshi."

"With everyone, left and right, saying this is just(wise). I,
Hisamitsu, would be blind or a fool to adhere to my own council. You
may submit your request to the Prime Minister (Taishiko)"

In this case the "Prime Minister" was Tadayoshi who was left
in charge of Han administration back in Satsuma. The story goes that
when Hisamitsu heard the news that Saigo was released he was so
angered by his men's loyalty to the charismatic Takamori, that he bit
firmly into his silver tobacco pipe leaving a deep mark...
-t

[Previous #6632] [Next #6635]

#6635 [2005-01-30 23:44:26]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by gilliru

> Domenico et al,
>
> So, do you think that the growing anti-bakufu and anti-western
> feelings (and the failure of koubo-gattai, of course) made Hisamitsu
> aware of Saigo influence over young shishi?
> So that influence was first the cause of Saigo's exile, and then the
> cause of his appointment in Kyoto?

yes, I'd agree with both these statements. Tom has already replied with
a terrific and informative message. Btw Tom, what's the reference for
the story about Hisamitsu and his silver pipe? Is that in the Yates
biography? I don't own it and I'm not going into the uni library for a
couple of weeks so can't check up on it.

>
>
> If you have more opinions on this, please let me know and I will
> thank you at the end of my thesis ;)

Thanks, but I'm just an amateur who's fascinated by bakumatsu
history, especially the complex relationships between the shishi and
the han authorities - I know more about Choushuu than Satsuma
though.

Good luck with your thesis

Gillian

>
>

[Previous #6634] [Next #6636]

#6636 [2005-01-31 03:08:31]

Re: About Saigo Takamori

by real_fatty

Well, thank you both, I was just looking for confermation.
I read the story of the silver pipe in 'Ivan Morris, The Nobility of
Failure, London, Secker & Warburg Ltd., 1975, p. 237' and his
reference is 'Sakamoto Moriaki, Saigo Takamori, Tokyo, 1971, p.16'.
For sure I will come back for other question, thank tou once more.
Domenico

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Gillian Rubinstein
wrote:

> yes, I'd agree with both these statements. Tom has already replied

with

> a terrific and informative message. Btw Tom, what's the reference

for

> the story about Hisamitsu and his silver pipe? Is that in the

Yates

> biography? I don't own it and I'm not going into the uni library

for a

> couple of weeks so can't check up on it.
> Thanks, but I'm just an amateur who's fascinated by bakumatsu
> history, especially the complex relationships between the shishi

and

> the han authorities - I know more about Choushuu than Satsuma
> though.
>
> Good luck with your thesis
>
> Gillian

[Previous #6635] [Next #6637]

#6637 [2005-02-01 14:56:37]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by gilliru

> Domenico,

Thanks for the reference. Have been thinking more about anti-western
feeling in Satsuma and think I need to look into it more. In 1864
permission was sought to send young Satsuma samurai to London (as
Choshu did in 1863) to study Western technology and government. 16
or more went to University College in 1865 (There are 16 in the photos
but I can't remember how many went.) I guess after the attack on
Kagoshima anti-western feeling would increase, along with the
realisation that Japan could not defeat the West with contemporary
weapons and forces. So admiration of the west and a desire to know
more about them would also have been there.

This was the position Katsura, Inoue and Takasugi had reached in
Choshu by 1862/3, a position not shared by the conservatives in the
han or the more radical loyalists. But what were Saigo's thoughts at this
time? I'd really like to know.

Gillian

>
>
>

[Previous #6636] [Next #6640]

#6640 [2005-02-01 21:37:00]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by soshuju

Gillian, Domenico et al
My references are the Yates book, yes, though he has little
say on why he was recalled the second time, Gendai Shiten;
Sengoku-Bakumatsu Gunzo Saigo Takamori, other "Mooks" like the
Rekishi Gunzo series and Mushakoji Saneatsu's Dai Saigo from which we
get the story of Hisamitsu's pipe-stem...
Having just looked at these references in trying to answer
the earlier question it seems that Saigo was in exile and maybe even
unaware during the British attacks on Kagoshima, it'll take some
deeper research to find out if he ever put down his thoughts. You
would be right though to say that there was respect and real
friendship born of the conflict between England and Satsuma. A
reading of the British accounts of the time I think will show how
bonds were formed between the two out of the negotiations that
followed the burning of Kagoshima. Some of this is off the top of my
head but is how I remember the seeds of British support for the
western han were planted.
-t

[Previous #6637] [Next #6641]

#6641 [2005-02-02 04:13:48]

Re: About Saigo Takamori

by real_fatty

Hi Gillian,
That's what I've found in Yates book:

In 1863-64 Saigo was clued up of Western danger: he was aware that
if the han were busy fighting each other the country would be more
vulnerable. But he was not yet thinking of Japan as a single entity,
because he was grown up in domestic politics. Only after his meeting
with Katsu Kaishuu ('Saigou Takamori Zenshuu', Tokyo, Daiwa Shobou,
vol. I, pp. 396-403) he began to think about a Choshu-Satsuma
cooperation with the foreign powers against bakufu.

I hope to find something more on this argument going on with my
studies.
The meeting with Katsu seems to have irrevocably altered Saigo's
thoughts. Do you know something more about him?
Bye
Domenico

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Gillian Rubinstein
wrote:

>But what were Saigo's thoughts at this
> time? I'd really like to know.
>
> Gillian

[Previous #6640] [Next #6643]

#6643 [2005-02-02 18:12:50]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by gilliru

> Hi Domenico,
>
>Katsu Kaishuu (other names: Awa and Rintarou) is one of the most

interesting characters of the period. Jansen has some very good stuff
on him and his background (S.R. and the Meiji Restoration pp154 et
seq). Is this book in your library? Might be worth buying if not.

My Dictionary of Modern Japanese History has the following:

1823-1899
native of Edo and bakufu retainer, K trained in Dutch studies and
Western military science. In 1855 he became an official translator of
Western books then a naval student at Nagasaki. 1860 captained the
Kanrinmaru on first Japanese crossing of Pacific.On his return taught
gunnery and naval affairs and established first naval school at Hyogo in
1863, Built up bakufu navy. Students came from different han - one
was Sakamoto (who legend has it went to assassinate Katsu but ended
up an ardent disciple). This was the start of Katsu's strong contacts
with the loyalists. The degree of modernisation which he propounded
and the divergence of his views from many servants of the bakufu led
conservatives to press for his dismissal in 1864, but was restored to
favour under Tokugawa keiki and served as major contact with
bakufu's opponents. In 1868 negotiated with Saigo for peacefull
surrender of Edo. Acted as deputy navy minister for new regime 1872
-73 and in various other government posts. Wrote histories of army,
navy, bakufu, opening of country and memoirs.

(which I would like to read!)

One time I was in Japan I saw a "Sonotoki" documentary on him which
might still be in the NHK website archives.

Cheers,

Gillian

[Previous #6641] [Next #6644]

#6644 [2005-02-02 19:51:08]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by ltdomer98

--- Gillian Rubinstein <gillian@...>
wrote:

>
> One time I was in Japan I saw a "Sonotoki"
> documentary on him which
> might still be in the NHK website archives.

It's probably available in book form, from NHK.

Nate

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[Previous #6643] [Next #6645]

#6645 [2005-02-02 23:34:20]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by umaryu

HI

I think he is also refered to as Musui hereis his
autobiography.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0816512566/qid=1107415989/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/104-0093419-1220766

Paul

---------------------------------

> Hi Domenico,
>
>Katsu Kaishuu (other names: Awa and Rintarou) is one

of the most
interesting characters of the period. Jansen has some
very good stuff
on him and his background (S.R. and the Meiji
Restoration pp154 et
seq). Is this book in your library? Might be worth
buying if not.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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[Previous #6644] [Next #6646]

#6646 [2005-02-03 00:40:09]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by gilliru

>
>> I think he is also refered to as Musui hereis his
> autobiography.
>
> Musui's story is very entertaining but this is not Katsu Kaishuu. (I

imagine him turning in his grave...)

Gillian

>
> ---------------------------------
> >

[Previous #6645] [Next #6648]

#6648 [2005-02-03 03:33:04]

Re: About Saigo Takamori

by real_fatty

Hi all,
yes, there is. And I've also read it... but totally forgot
everything :( I will read it one more time...
But do you agree with Yates on the importance of that meeting?
I remember the story of Sakamoto, went to assassinate Katsu but ended
up a disciple. But do you think that a single meeting could influece
a strong personality as Saigo?
Thank you for everything and once more sorry for my English...
Bye.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Gillian Rubinstein
wrote:

> > Hi Domenico,
> >
> >Katsu Kaishuu (other names: Awa and Rintarou) is one of the most
> interesting characters of the period. Jansen has some very good

stuff

> on him and his background (S.R. and the Meiji Restoration pp154 et
> seq). Is this book in your library? Might be worth buying if not.
> Gillian

[Previous #6646] [Next #6653]

#6653 [2005-02-04 16:00:43]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by gilliru

Hi Domenico,

> But do you think that a single meeting could influece
> a strong personality as Saigo?

I can't answer this with any great authority but my instinct is "Yes",
given Katsu's obvious intelligence and charisma. In 9/64 Craig (Choshu
in the Meiji Restoration p312) says Saigo and Katsu discussed the
impotence and temporising of the bakufu. Also I think all the future
Meiji leaders shared characteristics of flexibility, pragmatism, even
opportunism which along with their undeniable physical and mental
toughness enabled them to survive the turbulent bakumatsu years
when so many more stubborn and unyielding personalities went under.
(see Craig. p 268)

There was a lot of confusion (understatement!) in the bakumatsu
period and decisions were often made on emotional and instinctive
grounds. Craig quotes Ito Hirobumi: "if one speaks logically of the
things (that happened then) they are impossible to understand...but
emotionally it had to be that way." (op cit.p198)

(rather like the argument that going to war should be like jumping off
the veranda.)

Perhaps Saigo's personality in the end proved too "strong" to be able
to accommodate the drive to modernism of the Meiji government:
hence his last stand as "last samurai" .

> Thank you for everything

No problem, I enjoy discussing these things, it helps me clarify my
thoughts.

and once more sorry for my English...

Don't apologise for your English: it is brilliant.

Cheers,

Gillian

>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Previous #6648] [Next #6737]

#6737 [2005-02-26 09:56:49]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by burker94509

Domenico,

Do you know if "'Sakamoto Moriaki, Saigo Takamori" has been translated
into English?

A couple of books hav been published in English about Saigo Takamori
recently. They are:

"Saigo Takamori: The Many Behind the Myth", by Charles L. Yates, Kegan
Paul International Ltd, 1995.

"The Last Samurai, The Life and Battles of Saigo Takamori", by Mark
Ravina, John Wiley & Sons, Inc, 2004.

Bob Burke

In a message dated 1/31/05 4:27:34 AM, real_fatty@... writes:

<<

Well, thank you both, I was just looking for confermation.

I read the story of the silver pipe in 'Ivan Morris, The Nobility of

Failure, London, Secker & Warburg Ltd., 1975, p. 237' and his

reference is 'Sakamoto Moriaki, Saigo Takamori, Tokyo, 1971, p.16'.

For sure I will come back for other question, thank tou once more.

Domenico

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Gillian Rubinstein

wrote:

> yes, I'd agree with both these statements. Tom has already replied

with

> a terrific and informative message. Btw Tom, what's the reference

for

> the story about Hisamitsu and his silver pipe? Is that in the

Yates

> biography? I don't own it and I'm not going into the uni library

for a

> couple of weeks so can't check up on it.

> Thanks, but I'm just an amateur who's fascinated by bakumatsu

> history, especially the complex relationships between the shishi

and

> the han authorities - I know more about Choushuu than Satsuma

> though.

>

> Good luck with your thesis

>

> Gillian

---

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Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori
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[Previous #6653] [Next #6738]

#6738 [2005-02-26 10:21:55]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by angel_nbi

Greetings!

Can anyone tell me where I can get an english cope of the Bushido Code here in England please?

Thak you!

Angel

burker1@... wrote:
Domenico,

Do you know if "'Sakamoto Moriaki, Saigo Takamori" has been translated
into English?

A couple of books hav been published in English about Saigo Takamori
recently. They are:

"Saigo Takamori: The Many Behind the Myth", by Charles L. Yates, Kegan
Paul International Ltd, 1995.

"The Last Samurai, The Life and Battles of Saigo Takamori", by Mark
Ravina, John Wiley & Sons, Inc, 2004.

Bob Burke

In a message dated 1/31/05 4:27:34 AM, real_fatty@... writes:

<<

Well, thank you both, I was just looking for confermation.

I read the story of the silver pipe in 'Ivan Morris, The Nobility of

Failure, London, Secker & Warburg Ltd., 1975, p. 237' and his

reference is 'Sakamoto Moriaki, Saigo Takamori, Tokyo, 1971, p.16'.

For sure I will come back for other question, thank tou once more.

Domenico

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Gillian Rubinstein

wrote:

> yes, I'd agree with both these statements. Tom has already replied

with

> a terrific and informative message. Btw Tom, what's the reference

for

> the story about Hisamitsu and his silver pipe? Is that in the

Yates

> biography? I don't own it and I'm not going into the uni library

for a

> couple of weeks so can't check up on it.

> Thanks, but I'm just an amateur who's fascinated by bakumatsu

> history, especially the complex relationships between the shishi

and

> the han authorities - I know more about Choushuu than Satsuma

> though.

>

> Good luck with your thesis

>

> Gillian

>>

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[Previous #6737] [Next #6739]

#6739 [2005-02-26 17:02:45]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by sengokudaimyo

Angel Elibureau wrote:

> Greetings!
>
> Can anyone tell me where I can get an english cope of the Bushido Code here in England please?

[Previous #6738] [Next #6742]

#6742 [2005-02-26 17:12:36]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by burker94509

Tony,

Could you please clarify your response a little. Are you saying that
there's no such thing as Bushido? Or that there is no codification of Bushido
(sort of like the Code of the West, it exits but in an unwritten form). Or that
there is no English translation of the Code of Bushido?

Thanks.

Bob Burke

In a message dated 2/26/05 4:05:41 PM, ajbryant@... writes:

<<
Angel Elibureau wrote:

> Greetings!
>
> Can anyone tell me where I can get an english cope of the Bushido Code here

in England please?

There is no such thing.

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

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http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

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Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:02:45 -0600
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori
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#6745 [2005-02-26 22:01:46]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: About Saigo Takamori

by angel_nbi

Hi Tony!

What do you mean by writing,"There is no such thing"? An english translation perhaps?
Any copy of the Code published for market?

Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:
Angel Elibureau wrote:

> Greetings!
>
> Can anyone tell me where I can get an english cope of the Bushido Code here in England please?

There is no such thing.

Tony

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