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On naming swords

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#6231 [2004-12-11 15:56:00]

On naming swords

by thomas_tessera

There is an excerpt from 'My Father' by Arai Hasuseki, in Legends of
the Samurai' and it relates a story:

Hasuseki's father Masanori, lived from 1601-82, 'not far removed
from the Sengoku Jidai', as his son describes it.

'You should never say ... that you carry a sharp blade ... someone
heard someone else say his sword cuts exceptionally well, so said
"By Heaven, you act rudely as if no-one else was around you.
Do you suppose anyone would carry a sword that does not cut?
Come on, man, see for yourself whether my sword cuts or not!"
and drew his sword.'

Apparently, bystanders intervened before blood was spilt.

It would appear from other details related to named swords, here and
elsewhere, that names usually derived from an incident to do with
the sword, rather than from any inherent quality of the blade.

The risk in attributing qualities to the sword itself implies that
other swords lack that quality, or rather this sword is superior
in that quality to all others, and thus an insult to the owner,
and an invitation to a duel.

They were touchy chaps, in those days.

Thomas

[Next #6236]

#6236 [2004-12-11 16:57:19]

Re: [samuraihistory] On naming swords

by johntwo8

Hey hey that was quiet interesting. Do you have a sword Mr. Davidson? If so did you name it? Again if you did do you mind sharing its name with me. Have a great day Mr. Davidson

Thomas Davidson <tom.davidson@...> wrote:
There is an excerpt from 'My Father' by Arai Hasuseki, in Legends of
the Samurai' and it relates a story:

Hasuseki's father Masanori, lived from 1601-82, 'not far removed
from the Sengoku Jidai', as his son describes it.

'You should never say ... that you carry a sharp blade ... someone
heard someone else say his sword cuts exceptionally well, so said
"By Heaven, you act rudely as if no-one else was around you.
Do you suppose anyone would carry a sword that does not cut?
Come on, man, see for yourself whether my sword cuts or not!"
and drew his sword.'

Apparently, bystanders intervened before blood was spilt.

It would appear from other details related to named swords, here and
elsewhere, that names usually derived from an incident to do with
the sword, rather than from any inherent quality of the blade.

The risk in attributing qualities to the sword itself implies that
other swords lack that quality, or rather this sword is superior
in that quality to all others, and thus an insult to the owner,
and an invitation to a duel.

They were touchy chaps, in those days.

Thomas







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#6238 [2004-12-12 08:05:18]

Re: On naming swords

by thomas_tessera

Sad to say I don't have a sword.

In my iai days an iaito from Japan was the most I could afford.

We purchased our iaito or shinken via British sensei making trips
to Japan. Another route for shinken was from visiting sensei with
a shinken for sale.

I never gave my iaito a name, but if I did it would be 'the whistler'
or something close. When it arrived we had an informal dojo
unwrapping, admiration of iaito blade and fittings, etc - and then
everyone had to have a go, at which point it was generally agreed
it made a most pleasing whistle as it sang through the air.

We then had a 'whistling shiai' which involved everyone trying to
outwhistle my iaito, which even involved me using sensei's shinken
to see if I could outwhistle my iaito - but no joy.

Thomas

[Previous #6236] [Next #6243]

#6243 [2004-12-12 12:17:23]

Re: [samuraihistory] On naming swords

by nihontonut

I agree with you that named swords probably most often got their names from an incident involving the sword, but some swords were in fact superior in quality to others. Swords were in fact tested on corpses and ranked by how well they cut, the results of the test was sometimes inscribed on the tang of the blade. http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sharp.htm

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Davidson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 3:56 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] On naming swords



There is an excerpt from 'My Father' by Arai Hasuseki, in Legends of
the Samurai' and it relates a story:

Hasuseki's father Masanori, lived from 1601-82, 'not far removed
from the Sengoku Jidai', as his son describes it.

'You should never say ... that you carry a sharp blade ... someone
heard someone else say his sword cuts exceptionally well, so said
"By Heaven, you act rudely as if no-one else was around you.
Do you suppose anyone would carry a sword that does not cut?
Come on, man, see for yourself whether my sword cuts or not!"
and drew his sword.'

Apparently, bystanders intervened before blood was spilt.

It would appear from other details related to named swords, here and
elsewhere, that names usually derived from an incident to do with
the sword, rather than from any inherent quality of the blade.

The risk in attributing qualities to the sword itself implies that
other swords lack that quality, or rather this sword is superior
in that quality to all others, and thus an insult to the owner,
and an invitation to a duel.

They were touchy chaps, in those days.

Thomas







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---


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#6260 [2004-12-13 15:43:22]

RE: [samuraihistory] On naming swords

by geregjonesmuller

Dave -
Sure, but I think the point of the tale is that you shouldn't brag about it:
someone is likely to want to call you on it. No argument that some swords
are better than others, now or then. It's curious how many people with
expensive swords, however, seem to be of the opinion that the quality of the
steel decides the fight, rather than the quality of the combatants' skills.
Unbeatable steel does not make an unbeatable fighter. Only when there is a
tremendous disparity between the two blades does that become a significant
factor. So the incident as related, I think, can be better understood in
the context of these social and martial attitudes than in the context of
comparative blade quality.
Thomas, I browse through that book, but I've not read that excerpt before.
Many thinks. (Hmm. That was meant to be 'thanks', but both are accurate
enough, so I'll leave the typo.)
Gereg

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:17:23 -0800
From: Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...>
Subject: Re: On naming swords

I agree with you that named swords probably most often got their names from
an incident involving the sword, but some swords were in fact superior in
quality to others. Swords were in fact tested on corpses and ranked by how
well they cut, the results of the test was sometimes inscribed on the tang
of the blade. http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sharp.htm

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Davidson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 3:56 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] On naming swords



There is an excerpt from 'My Father' by Arai Hasuseki, in Legends of
the Samurai' and it relates a story:

Hasuseki's father Masanori, lived from 1601-82, 'not far removed
from the Sengoku Jidai', as his son describes it.

'You should never say ... that you carry a sharp blade ... someone
heard someone else say his sword cuts exceptionally well, so said
"By Heaven, you act rudely as if no-one else was around you.
Do you suppose anyone would carry a sword that does not cut?
Come on, man, see for yourself whether my sword cuts or not!"
and drew his sword.'

Apparently, bystanders intervened before blood was spilt.

It would appear from other details related to named swords, here and
elsewhere, that names usually derived from an incident to do with
the sword, rather than from any inherent quality of the blade.

The risk in attributing qualities to the sword itself implies that
other swords lack that quality, or rather this sword is superior
in that quality to all others, and thus an insult to the owner,
and an invitation to a duel.

They were touchy chaps, in those days.

Thomas

[Previous #6243] [Next #6266]

#6266 [2004-12-13 17:23:54]

Re: [samuraihistory] On naming swords

by sengokudaimyo

Silk Road School wrote:

> It's curious how many people with
> expensive swords, however, seem to be of the opinion that the quality of the
> steel decides the fight, rather than the quality of the combatants' skills.

I can't recall what warlord it was who forbade his retainers to go into hock to
buy "quality" swords. He had a saying: "A sword worth a hundred gold pieces can
be overcome by one hundred spears, each worth one gold piece."


Tony

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Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

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[Previous #6260] [Next #6290]

#6290 [2004-12-14 06:27:45]

Re: [samuraihistory] On naming swords

by Barry Thomas

Was it not Oda Nobunaga??

Barry Thomas.

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] On naming swords



Silk Road School wrote:

> It's curious how many people with
> expensive swords, however, seem to be of the opinion that the quality of
the
> steel decides the fight, rather than the quality of the combatants'
skills.

I can't recall what warlord it was who forbade his retainers to go into hock
to
buy "quality" swords. He had a saying: "A sword worth a hundred gold pieces
can
be overcome by one hundred spears, each worth one gold piece."


Tony

[Previous #6266] [Next #6304]

#6304 [2004-12-14 14:54:02]

RES: [samuraihistory] On naming swords

by tbsorrentino

Isn´t it one of the recommendations on the Hakagure? I don´t have access to
a copy (and won´t have until new year´s eve) but maybe someone who does
might confirm it.



Cheers,



Thiago



_____

De: Barry Thomas [mailto:warlord@...]
Enviada em: terça-feira, 14 de dezembro de 2004 12:28
Para: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: Re: [samuraihistory] On naming swords




Was it not Oda Nobunaga??

Barry Thomas.

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] On naming swords



Silk Road School wrote:

> It's curious how many people with
> expensive swords, however, seem to be of the opinion that the quality of
the
> steel decides the fight, rather than the quality of the combatants'
skills.

I can't recall what warlord it was who forbade his retainers to go into hock
to
buy "quality" swords. He had a saying: "A sword worth a hundred gold pieces
can
be overcome by one hundred spears, each worth one gold piece."


Tony






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#6307 [2004-12-14 15:09:55]

Re: [samuraihistory] On naming swords

by ltdomer98

--- Barry Thomas <warlord@...> wrote:

>
> Was it not Oda Nobunaga??
>
> Barry Thomas.

Barry--

I've seen the "1 sword worth X overcome by 100 spears
worth a whole lot less X" quote attributed to both
Asakura Yoshikage and one of the Hojo lords. Both were
fairly pragmatic about things.



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