is sephiroth a samurai

ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if you know email me

--- Sephiroth <o0o0sephiroth0o0o@...> wrote:

>
> ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if
> you know email me

Care to explain what a "sephiroth" is? Being as it
would essentially be impossible to pronounce in the
Japanese language, I sincerely doubt it.



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Sephiroth wrote:

>
> ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if you know email me

WHY have you always wondered something like that?

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Sephiroth is a video game character from final fantasy
7 tht weilds a sword called the masamune.
--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

>
> --- Sephiroth <o0o0sephiroth0o0o@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if
> > you know email me
>
> Care to explain what a "sephiroth" is? Being as it
> would essentially be impossible to pronounce in the
> Japanese language, I sincerely doubt it.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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--- Anthony Estes <lil_dude_ame88@...> wrote:

> Sephiroth is a video game character from final
> fantasy
> 7 tht weilds a sword called the masamune.

I see. So you are asking if a fictional fantasy
character is a samurai, then, right? Being as he uses
what I assume to be a samurai sword based on the name,
then he could very well be a character based loosely
on samurai, yes. However, he's a fictional fantasy
character--it would seem to me that it's irrelevant.



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Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Anthony Estes <lil_dude_ame88@...> wrote:

> Sephiroth is a video game character from final
> fantasy
> 7 tht weilds a sword called the masamune.

I see. So you are asking if a fictional fantasy
character is a samurai, then, right? Being as he uses
what I assume to be a samurai sword based on the name,
then he could very well be a character based loosely
on samurai, yes. However, he's a fictional fantasy
character--it would seem to me that it's irrelevant.

======================================================

Oh, from what I've seen, Sephiroth is indeed a samurai, if you see Masamune is a Katana as well, not light the sword wielded by Cloud. So, in my opinion, Sephiroth is the real samurai, even he is a fictional.





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Discussion in this group seems to be going down hill at an alarming
pace!............. :-)

Matt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mikaeru Shihojou" <astragunner2002@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 4:25 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] is sephiroth a samurai





Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Anthony Estes <lil_dude_ame88@...> wrote:

> Sephiroth is a video game character from final
> fantasy
> 7 tht weilds a sword called the masamune.

I see. So you are asking if a fictional fantasy
character is a samurai, then, right? Being as he uses
what I assume to be a samurai sword based on the name,
then he could very well be a character based loosely
on samurai, yes. However, he's a fictional fantasy
character--it would seem to me that it's irrelevant.

======================================================

Oh, from what I've seen, Sephiroth is indeed a samurai, if you see Masamune
is a Katana as well, not light the sword wielded by Cloud. So, in my
opinion, Sephiroth is the real samurai, even he is a fictional.





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Hey sorry to say but no sephiroth is not a samurai yet acts like one in more than one way. So I guess you could say he is a samurai but not a samurai at the same time...... if that helps at all. lol


Sephiroth <o0o0sephiroth0o0o@...> wrote:

ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if you know email me






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hi, well i think that Sephiroth is a samurai to those who love him & call him "One Winged Angel " but there are people think that he isnt a samurai because he's evil, so it depends on the person are asking, if you remove he's evil side he will be a true samurai, to me, he's a samurai no need to argue about it, there are evil samurais around the world, aren't there ???

Hopes This Helps.







durrant <kinglink89@...> wrote:

Hey sorry to say but no sephiroth is not a samurai yet acts like one in more than one way. So I guess you could say he is a samurai but not a samurai at the same time...... if that helps at all. lol


Sephiroth <o0o0sephiroth0o0o@...> wrote:

ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if you know email me






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Are we really having this discussion?


--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

> hi, well i think that Sephiroth is a samurai to
> those who love him & call him "One Winged Angel "
> but there are people think that he isnt a samurai
> because he's evil, so it depends on the person are
> asking, if you remove he's evil side he will be a
> true samurai, to me, he's a samurai no need to argue
> about it, there are evil samurais around the world,
> aren't there ???
>
> Hopes This Helps.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> durrant <kinglink89@...> wrote:
>
> Hey sorry to say but no sephiroth is not a samurai
> yet acts like one in more than one way. So I guess
> you could say he is a samurai but not a samurai at
> the same time...... if that helps at all. lol
>
>
> Sephiroth <o0o0sephiroth0o0o@...> wrote:
>
> ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if
> you know email me
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
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> http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
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no, we are just kidding, !!!!!

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:Are we really having this discussion?


--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

> hi, well i think that Sephiroth is a samurai to
> those who love him & call him "One Winged Angel "
> but there are people think that he isnt a samurai
> because he's evil, so it depends on the person are
> asking, if you remove he's evil side he will be a
> true samurai, to me, he's a samurai no need to argue
> about it, there are evil samurais around the world,
> aren't there ???
>
> Hopes This Helps.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> durrant <kinglink89@...> wrote:
>
> Hey sorry to say but no sephiroth is not a samurai
> yet acts like one in more than one way. So I guess
> you could say he is a samurai but not a samurai at
> the same time...... if that helps at all. lol
>
>
> Sephiroth <o0o0sephiroth0o0o@...> wrote:
>
> ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if
> you know email me
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
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> http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
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can a moderator stop this crap

if someone wants to talk about a fictional games
character being a samurai they need to go to a games
forum not one that deals in serious samurai history.

Paul



--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:


---------------------------------
hi, well i think that Sephiroth is a samurai to those
who love him & call him "One Winged Angel " but there
are people think that he isnt a samurai because he's
evil, so it depends on the person are asking, if you
remove he's evil side he will be a true samurai, to
me, he's a samurai no need to argue about it, there
are evil samurais around the world, aren't there ???

Hopes This Helps.







durrant <kinglink89@...> wrote:

Hey sorry to say but no sephiroth is not a samurai yet
acts like one in more than one way. So I guess you
could say he is a samurai but not a samurai at the
same time...... if that helps at all. lol


Sephiroth <o0o0sephiroth0o0o@...> wrote:

ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if you
know email me






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Yes, he can. Just waiting for someone to ask....

Guys, please take it to a gaming forum. This is for
Samurai HISTORY. Deviations into pop culture are okay,
but this is getting silly.

Thanks,

The assistant management.


--- Richardson Paul <umaryu@...> wrote:

> can a moderator stop this crap
>
> if someone wants to talk about a fictional games
> character being a samurai they need to go to a games
> forum not one that deals in serious samurai history.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> --- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
> wrote:
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> hi, well i think that Sephiroth is a samurai to
> those
> who love him & call him "One Winged Angel " but
> there
> are people think that he isnt a samurai because he's
> evil, so it depends on the person are asking, if you
> remove he's evil side he will be a true samurai, to
> me, he's a samurai no need to argue about it, there
> are evil samurais around the world, aren't there ???
>
> Hopes This Helps.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> durrant <kinglink89@...> wrote:
>
> Hey sorry to say but no sephiroth is not a samurai
> yet
> acts like one in more than one way. So I guess you
> could say he is a samurai but not a samurai at the
> same time...... if that helps at all. lol
>
>
> Sephiroth <o0o0sephiroth0o0o@...> wrote:
>
> ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if
> you
> know email me
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store:
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am sorry moderator, but does he have the right to say that ???
if so, then keep silent & watch us talk, dont interfere with grown ups' talk


Richardson Paul <umaryu@...> wrote:
can a moderator stop this crap

if someone wants to talk about a fictional games
character being a samurai they need to go to a games
forum not one that deals in serious samurai history.

Paul



--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:


---------------------------------
hi, well i think that Sephiroth is a samurai to those
who love him & call him "One Winged Angel " but there
are people think that he isnt a samurai because he's
evil, so it depends on the person are asking, if you
remove he's evil side he will be a true samurai, to
me, he's a samurai no need to argue about it, there
are evil samurais around the world, aren't there ???

Hopes This Helps.







durrant <kinglink89@...> wrote:

Hey sorry to say but no sephiroth is not a samurai yet
acts like one in more than one way. So I guess you
could say he is a samurai but not a samurai at the
same time...... if that helps at all. lol


Sephiroth <o0o0sephiroth0o0o@...> wrote:

ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if you
know email me






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--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

>
> am sorry moderator, but does he have the right to
> say that ???
> if so, then keep silent & watch us talk, dont
> interfere with grown ups' talk

Yes, he's perfectly free to say that. There was
nothing derogatory or insulting. And he's got a
point--this isn't a video game message board. I'm
surprised no one has stormed on to give the definition
of samurai yet: the warrior social class of Japan from
the 11th through 19th centuries. The entire question
is ill-suited for this board. If the creator of the
game/anime/whatever says he's a "samurai", then in the
context of the game/anime/whatever, he is. However,
notions of evil or good, what sword he carries, etc.,
have no bearing whatsoever on anything. In the real
world, there were "good" samurai and "evil" samurai.
Not everyone who carried a sword was a samurai. Point
of fact, for most of the history of the samurai the
sword wasn't his most important weapon--the bow and
then the spear were. The sword only became supremely
prominent post 1600 when the majority of wars ceased.

As to "interfering with grown ups' talk", are you
serious? The "samurainess" of an anime character would
seem to me to be a rather childish subject, to be
dismissed by most adults. That's why I think very
little response has been generated to the question.
Again, try an anime/video game list.

Thanks again,

The assistant management (bucking for promotion...)



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Squall,
Mods don't 'interfere', they merely enforce the rules of the forum.

If you go badly off the agreed content, then the mods are well within their rights to either ask you to get back on track or to delete the thread.

Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...> wrote:

am sorry moderator, but does he have the right to say that ???
if so, then keep silent & watch us talk, dont interfere with grown ups' talk


Richardson Paul wrote:
can a moderator stop this crap

if someone wants to talk about a fictional games
character being a samurai they need to go to a games
forum not one that deals in serious samurai history.

Paul



--- Squall Lionheart
wrote:


---------------------------------
hi, well i think that Sephiroth is a samurai to those
who love him & call him "One Winged Angel " but there
are people think that he isnt a samurai because he's
evil, so it depends on the person are asking, if you
remove he's evil side he will be a true samurai, to
me, he's a samurai no need to argue about it, there
are evil samurais around the world, aren't there ???

Hopes This Helps.







durrant wrote:

Hey sorry to say but no sephiroth is not a samurai yet
acts like one in more than one way. So I guess you
could say he is a samurai but not a samurai at the
same time...... if that helps at all. lol


Sephiroth wrote:

ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if you
know email me






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okay, am sorry my bad, we were discusting if a fantasy character desereves the title SAMURAI,

Hopes This Helps.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
Yes, he can. Just waiting for someone to ask....

Guys, please take it to a gaming forum. This is for
Samurai HISTORY. Deviations into pop culture are okay,
but this is getting silly.

Thanks,

The assistant management.


--- Richardson Paul <umaryu@...> wrote:

> can a moderator stop this crap
>
> if someone wants to talk about a fictional games
> character being a samurai they need to go to a games
> forum not one that deals in serious samurai history.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> --- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
> wrote:
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> hi, well i think that Sephiroth is a samurai to
> those
> who love him & call him "One Winged Angel " but
> there
> are people think that he isnt a samurai because he's
> evil, so it depends on the person are asking, if you
> remove he's evil side he will be a true samurai, to
> me, he's a samurai no need to argue about it, there
> are evil samurais around the world, aren't there ???
>
> Hopes This Helps.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> durrant <kinglink89@...> wrote:
>
> Hey sorry to say but no sephiroth is not a samurai
> yet
> acts like one in more than one way. So I guess you
> could say he is a samurai but not a samurai at the
> same time...... if that helps at all. lol
>
>
> Sephiroth <o0o0sephiroth0o0o@...> wrote:
>
> ive always wondered if sephiroth was a samurai if
> you
> know email me
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

>
> okay, am sorry my bad, we were discusting if a
> fantasy character desereves the title SAMURAI,
>
> Hopes This Helps.
>

I know exactly what you're discussing--I've had to
approve or disapprove every single message regarding
this subject. And the discussion is okay, depending on
how you go with it--if you wanted to list
characteristics of a fictional character and ask if
they were consistent with him being a samurai in the
historical sense of the word, then that's fine. As I
said, having a samurai sword does not a samurai make.
And the answers I've seen to the question are leading
it quickly into the realm of gaming and anime, and out
of any historical context or value. The fact that the
original question failed to explain what the heck a
"sephiroth" is was a clue to me that it came from a
gamer, but I let it go because it could have led to
some interesting discussion, if done right, and I
didn't have a reason NOT to let it go.

Please bring it back to the historical side, or we'll
end it.

The assistant management (at least a payraise...?)



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Dear Asst. Mod,
am really sorry for last posted messages, i apologize for anything could have been undrstood wrong by me, i apologize for the inconvience.

Thanks

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

>
> am sorry moderator, but does he have the right to
> say that ???
> if so, then keep silent & watch us talk, dont
> interfere with grown ups' talk

Yes, he's perfectly free to say that. There was
nothing derogatory or insulting. And he's got a
point--this isn't a video game message board. I'm
surprised no one has stormed on to give the definition
of samurai yet: the warrior social class of Japan from
the 11th through 19th centuries. The entire question
is ill-suited for this board. If the creator of the
game/anime/whatever says he's a "samurai", then in the
context of the game/anime/whatever, he is. However,
notions of evil or good, what sword he carries, etc.,
have no bearing whatsoever on anything. In the real
world, there were "good" samurai and "evil" samurai.
Not everyone who carried a sword was a samurai. Point
of fact, for most of the history of the samurai the
sword wasn't his most important weapon--the bow and
then the spear were. The sword only became supremely
prominent post 1600 when the majority of wars ceased.

As to "interfering with grown ups' talk", are you
serious? The "samurainess" of an anime character would
seem to me to be a rather childish subject, to be
dismissed by most adults. That's why I think very
little response has been generated to the question.
Again, try an anime/video game list.

Thanks again,

The assistant management (bucking for promotion...)



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

>
> Dear Asst. Mod,
> am really sorry for last posted messages, i
> apologize for anything could have been undrstood
> wrong by me, i apologize for the inconvience.
>
> Thanks

No problem--don't apologize, just bring it back to reality.



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well you know, its the subject of the message that hurts not the msg itself.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

>
> Dear Asst. Mod,
> am really sorry for last posted messages, i
> apologize for anything could have been undrstood
> wrong by me, i apologize for the inconvience.
>
> Thanks

No problem--don't apologize, just bring it back to reality.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

okay. thanks, what do you mean by end it ?



Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

>
> okay, am sorry my bad, we were discusting if a
> fantasy character desereves the title SAMURAI,
>
> Hopes This Helps.
>

I know exactly what you're discussing--I've had to
approve or disapprove every single message regarding
this subject. And the discussion is okay, depending on
how you go with it--if you wanted to list
characteristics of a fictional character and ask if
they were consistent with him being a samurai in the
historical sense of the word, then that's fine. As I
said, having a samurai sword does not a samurai make.
And the answers I've seen to the question are leading
it quickly into the realm of gaming and anime, and out
of any historical context or value. The fact that the
original question failed to explain what the heck a
"sephiroth" is was a clue to me that it came from a
gamer, but I let it go because it could have led to
some interesting discussion, if done right, and I
didn't have a reason NOT to let it go.

Please bring it back to the historical side, or we'll
end it.

The assistant management (at least a payraise...?)



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

>
> well you know, its the subject of the message that
> hurts not the msg itself.

Believe it or not, this isn't the nicest of net
neighborhoods. I've been accused of being the
neighborhood bully once or twice. You've got to be
tough in this business--many people on this email list
are serious historians, published authors, people who
read Japanese history in the original Japanese--not
the anime Shibuya-speak, mind you, but good old
fashioned 12th century stuff. These people don't
consider gaming questions worthy of their bandwidth.
There have been heated issues when gaming types come
on here and think they know everything about samurai
simply because they beat the 17th level of "Samurai
Showdown" or "Tenchu" or they watched Rurouni Kenshin
("Samurai X") 25 times. If you want to learn about
samurai, start at the website www.samuraiarchives.com
and find the "Top 10 misconceptions of the samurai".
When people come here asking gaming or anime
questions, often the assumption is that they are
deluded by one or two or all 10 of those. Things can
get painful.

Grow a thick skin, and be willing to learn, and this
is a nice place. If that bothers you, then I dare you
to say something like "Anthony Bryant couldn't tell a
sugake odoshi from a obon odori" and see what happens.


*note to everyone on the board--why am I continuing to
fill your in box? Because if I answered his emails
singly instead of on the list, all the others who
answered/asked the question wouldn't get the benefit.
Sorry, and thanks for the patience.

The just-demoted assistant management (guess I'll go
clean out the bathrooms now...)



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Squall Lionheart wrote:

>hi, well i think that Sephiroth is a samurai to those who love him & call him "One Winged Angel " but there are people think that he isnt a samurai because he's evil, so it depends on the person are asking, if you remove he's evil side he will be a true samurai, to me, he's a samurai no need to argue about it, there are evil samurais around the world, aren't there ???
>
>
>

What the hell is this, and what does it have to do with Japanese history?

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
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Squall Lionheart wrote:

>okay, am sorry my bad, we were discusting if a fantasy character desereves the title SAMURAI,
>
>

Ummm.... people who "deserve" the title samurai *were* samurai.
Currently, there are none. And definitely not in the realm of some kid's
fantasy computer games.

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Squall Lionheart wrote:

>am sorry moderator, but does he have the right to say that ???
>if so, then keep silent & watch us talk, dont interfere with grown ups' talk
>
>
>

My irony detector just went off. (Oddly, at the same time as my BS
detector.)

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>If that bothers you, then I dare you
>to say something like "Anthony Bryant couldn't tell a
>sugake odoshi from a obon odori" and see what happens.
>
>

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Anthony Bryant wrote:

> Squall Lionheart wrote:
>
> >okay, am sorry my bad, we were discusting if a fantasy character
> desereves the title SAMURAI,
> >
> >
>
> Ummm.... people who "deserve" the title samurai *were* samurai.
> Currently, there are none.

I am just curious, how does one "deserve" the title samurai? Is it just
loyalty to a lord? Is it just the ability to use a bow and/or sword?
Or is it the following of the code in all things in life? Do any of
those who come from a samurai lineage deserve the title samurai?

Dan Cooper

hi all , wow just read all the heated debate . Any way i was wondering if any one can help me with sword names, was it a common pratice to name swords, i know that one of musashis opponenets ( i forget , very shameful of me i know) names his sword of length, dfrying pole or something like that. Any way im intrested in learning and knowing any swords named by famous samurai and how common the practice was,oh and this isnt a harsh forum as ive been helped many a time by the better educated among as thanks all ,
james

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

>
> well you know, its the subject of the message that
> hurts not the msg itself.

Believe it or not, this isn't the nicest of net
neighborhoods. I've been accused of being the
neighborhood bully once or twice. You've got to be
tough in this business--many people on this email list
are serious historians, published authors, people who
read Japanese history in the original Japanese--not
the anime Shibuya-speak, mind you, but good old
fashioned 12th century stuff. These people don't
consider gaming questions worthy of their bandwidth.
There have been heated issues when gaming types come
on here and think they know everything about samurai
simply because they beat the 17th level of "Samurai
Showdown" or "Tenchu" or they watched Rurouni Kenshin
("Samurai X") 25 times. If you want to learn about
samurai, start at the website www.samuraiarchives.com
and find the "Top 10 misconceptions of the samurai".
When people come here asking gaming or anime
questions, often the assumption is that they are
deluded by one or two or all 10 of those. Things can
get painful.

Grow a thick skin, and be willing to learn, and this
is a nice place. If that bothers you, then I dare you
to say something like "Anthony Bryant couldn't tell a
sugake odoshi from a obon odori" and see what happens.


*note to everyone on the board--why am I continuing to
fill your in box? Because if I answered his emails
singly instead of on the list, all the others who
answered/asked the question wouldn't get the benefit.
Sorry, and thanks for the patience.

The just-demoted assistant management (guess I'll go
clean out the bathrooms now...)



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> Are we really having this discussion?

LOL

Daniel Cooper wrote:

>
>
>>Ummm.... people who "deserve" the title samurai *were* samurai.
>>Currently, there are none.
>>
>>
>
>I am just curious, how does one "deserve" the title samurai? Is it just
>loyalty to a lord? Is it just the ability to use a bow and/or sword?
>Or is it the following of the code in all things in life? Do any of
>those who come from a samurai lineage deserve the title samurai?
>
>

You're kind of missing the point. The people who "deserved" the title
XYZ *were* XYZ. It's a binary thing -- either one was, or one wasn't.

Samurai were members of a specific social class that once existed, and
the only people who by rights ought be called samurai *were* the
samurai. (That much is simple logic, no?) And no one can be called,
properly, "samurai" today as there are no more samurai by law.

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> >If that bothers you, then I dare you
> >to say something like "Anthony Bryant couldn't tell
> a
> >sugake odoshi from a obon odori" and see what
> happens.
> >
> >
>
>
> Tony

he he he....



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people who deserve to be samurai, i was under the impression that it was a social class ,and like medieval nights of europe a class that no longer exists, to many people playing computer games , buying a katana and suddenly believe that thay are the next oda or musashi, i have seen to many of these in my kendo class and now the clubv is invite only

Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:Daniel Cooper wrote:

>
>
>>Ummm.... people who "deserve" the title samurai *were* samurai.
>>Currently, there are none.
>>
>>
>
>I am just curious, how does one "deserve" the title samurai? Is it just
>loyalty to a lord? Is it just the ability to use a bow and/or sword?
>Or is it the following of the code in all things in life? Do any of
>those who come from a samurai lineage deserve the title samurai?
>
>

You're kind of missing the point. The people who "deserved" the title
XYZ *were* XYZ. It's a binary thing -- either one was, or one wasn't.

Samurai were members of a specific social class that once existed, and
the only people who by rights ought be called samurai *were* the
samurai. (That much is simple logic, no?) And no one can be called,
properly, "samurai" today as there are no more samurai by law.

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder





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--- Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> >I am just curious, how does one "deserve" the title
> samurai?

snip

> You're kind of missing the point. The people who
> "deserved" the title
> XYZ *were* XYZ. It's a binary thing -- either one
> was, or one wasn't.
>
> Samurai were members of a specific social class that
> once existed, and
> the only people who by rights ought be called
> samurai *were* the
> samurai. (That much is simple logic, no?) And no one
> can be called,
> properly, "samurai" today as there are no more
> samurai by law.

Tony, I think the problem is your use of the word
"deserve". While in the sense I think you mean it's
used as "applicable to", as in the word "samurai"
applies to a member of that particular social class
from that time period, some people are going to think
of deserve as meeting some set of behavior criteria.
This plays right into the hands of the "all samurai
are noble, live by bushido, blah blah" crowd, and
hence the confusion.

In that sense, there's no "deserve" or "don't
deserve". You either simply "were" a samurai, or you
weren't, regardless of what you did, good or bad.



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--- Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> >I am just curious, how does one "deserve" the title
> samurai?

snip

> You're kind of missing the point. The people who
> "deserved" the title
> XYZ *were* XYZ. It's a binary thing -- either one
> was, or one wasn't.
>
> Samurai were members of a specific social class that
> once existed, and
> the only people who by rights ought be called
> samurai *were* the
> samurai. (That much is simple logic, no?) And no one
> can be called,
> properly, "samurai" today as there are no more
> samurai by law.

Tony, I think the problem is your use of the word
"deserve". While in the sense I think you mean it's
used as "applicable to", as in the word "samurai"
applies to a member of that particular social class
from that time period, some people are going to think
of deserve as meeting some set of behavior criteria.
This plays right into the hands of the "all samurai
are noble, live by bushido, blah blah" crowd, and
hence the confusion.

In that sense, there's no "deserve" or "don't
deserve". You either simply "were" a samurai, or you
weren't, regardless of what you did, good or bad.



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james wallis wrote:

>people who deserve to be samurai, i was under the impression that it was a social class ,and like medieval nights of europe a class that no longer exists, to many people playing computer games , buying a katana and suddenly believe that thay are the next oda or musashi, i have seen to many of these in my kendo class and now the clubv is invite only
>
>
>

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're trying to say. Conventional
punctuation and so on would go a long way to helping clarity.

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>Tony, I think the problem is your use of the word
>"deserve". While in the sense I think you mean it's
>used as "applicable to", as in the word "samurai"
>applies to a member of that particular social class
>from that time period, some people are going to think
>of deserve as meeting some set of behavior criteria.
>This plays right into the hands of the "all samurai
>are noble, live by bushido, blah blah" crowd, and
>hence the confusion.
>
>In that sense, there's no "deserve" or "don't
>deserve". You either simply "were" a samurai, or you
>weren't, regardless of what you did, good or bad.
>
>

Good point. I meant it as "should be called" -- in essence, the only
people who deserve to have the title -- rightly or wrongly -- are those
entitled to it. No commentary on worthiness or so forth; it's strictly a
legalistic position.

Tony


--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> james wallis wrote:

>
> I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're trying to
> say. Conventional
> punctuation and so on would go a long way to helping
> clarity.

I think he failed to read the full post, and didn't
realize you were replying at the bottom.



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Hello how r u. i am not a samurai but i train very hard in Japanes art and i do my studies like many others on this forum. n e who i did name my Katana. i think even before i got it. i named it Sabarashi. however i have no name for my short blade. well as for help on did actual samurai name theres well i dont know. but good luck on ur searching. GOD BLESS U and have a nice day

james wallis <kentguy212002@...> wrote:
hi all , wow just read all the heated debate . Any way i was wondering if any one can help me with sword names, was it a common pratice to name swords, i know that one of musashis opponenets ( i forget , very shameful of me i know) names his sword of length, dfrying pole or something like that. Any way im intrested in learning and knowing any swords named by famous samurai and how common the practice was,oh and this isnt a harsh forum as ive been helped many a time by the better educated among as thanks all ,
james

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...>
wrote:

>
> well you know, its the subject of the message that
> hurts not the msg itself.

Believe it or not, this isn't the nicest of net
neighborhoods. I've been accused of being the
neighborhood bully once or twice. You've got to be
tough in this business--many people on this email list
are serious historians, published authors, people who
read Japanese history in the original Japanese--not
the anime Shibuya-speak, mind you, but good old
fashioned 12th century stuff. These people don't
consider gaming questions worthy of their bandwidth.
There have been heated issues when gaming types come
on here and think they know everything about samurai
simply because they beat the 17th level of "Samurai
Showdown" or "Tenchu" or they watched Rurouni Kenshin
("Samurai X") 25 times. If you want to learn about
samurai, start at the website www.samuraiarchives.com
and find the "Top 10 misconceptions of the samurai".
When people come here asking gaming or anime
questions, often the assumption is that they are
deluded by one or two or all 10 of those. Things can
get painful.

Grow a thick skin, and be willing to learn, and this
is a nice place. If that bothers you, then I dare you
to say something like "Anthony Bryant couldn't tell a
sugake odoshi from a obon odori" and see what happens.


*note to everyone on the board--why am I continuing to
fill your in box? Because if I answered his emails
singly instead of on the list, all the others who
answered/asked the question wouldn't get the benefit.
Sorry, and thanks for the patience.

The just-demoted assistant management (guess I'll go
clean out the bathrooms now...)



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> james wallis <kentguy212002@...> wrote:

> hi all , wow just read all the heated debate . Any
> way i was wondering if any one can help me with
> sword names, was it a common pratice to name swords,
> i know that one of musashis opponenets ( i forget ,
> very shameful of me i know) names his sword of
> length, dfrying pole or something like that. Any way
> im intrested in learning and knowing any swords
> named by famous samurai and how common the practice
> was,oh and this isnt a harsh forum as ive been
> helped many a time by the better educated among as
> thanks all ,
> james

James--

Famous works of art, whether they were swords, tea
utensils, or other items, were often given names. Yes,
according to tradition Musashi's famous opponent
Sasaki Kojiro named his sword "drying pole", I believe
due to it's length. I'm not a Musashi afficionado, so
I can't provide anything further.

Nate



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--- james wilson <johntwo8@...> wrote:

> Hello how r u. i am not a samurai but i train very
> hard in Japanes art and i do my studies like many
> others on this forum. n e who i did name my Katana.
> i think even before i got it. i named it Sabarashi.
> however i have no name for my short blade. well as
> for help on did actual samurai name theres well i
> dont know. but good luck on ur searching. GOD BLESS
> U and have a nice day

James--

Of course you aren't a samurai. It's impossible to be
one, since the samurai class was abolished in the
1870's. Legally none exist anymore. But, on to the
rest of your post.

"Sabarashi�h, eh? What meaning are you going for? I
can think of multiple kanji combinations, but can't
identify immediately which you might be using to give
meaning.

As for a name for a short sword, I'm not a sword
expert, so I'll leave that to them.





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Sabarashi means wonderfull. and thats what i ment ya i know i cannot be samurai i eie say i studied. but there was a conversation abt how thoses that trained in Japan related their training to that of a samurai. well i can understand that and then i cant. i too studied in Japan. in Kyushu under a great teacher. but i never asked him much abt it. however in like the last year or so i have been or should i say started studing. he just thought us the importance of karate just like Master Funakoshi. i have a few of his books and he never metions it in the ones i have abt his karate being linked with the samurai. last but not least i also studied some chinese martial arts and they have very simular princeples. so that lets one know just because the teaching is simular the two r not the same. An Akaido proverb goes like this: There is many roads that lead to the top of the Mountain. But once at the top the look up at the say moon. theres many ways to look at this but i hope all can relate
this meaning.

peace
GOD BLESS U


Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:


--- james wilson wrote:

> Hello how r u. i am not a samurai but i train very
> hard in Japanes art and i do my studies like many
> others on this forum. n e who i did name my Katana.
> i think even before i got it. i named it Sabarashi.
> however i have no name for my short blade. well as
> for help on did actual samurai name theres well i
> dont know. but good luck on ur searching. GOD BLESS
> U and have a nice day

James--

Of course you aren't a samurai. It's impossible to be
one, since the samurai class was abolished in the
1870's. Legally none exist anymore. But, on to the
rest of your post.

"Sabarashi�h, eh? What meaning are you going for? I
can think of multiple kanji combinations, but can't
identify immediately which you might be using to give
meaning.

As for a name for a short sword, I'm not a sword
expert, so I'll leave that to them.





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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, james wilson
wrote:

>
> Sabarashi means wonderfull.

Actually, "Subarashii" means "wonderful". The only thing that I can
think of close to "Sabarashi" is "Sabarashii", which means "like a
mackerel". You might want to think about renaming your sword.

--- james wilson <johntwo8@...> wrote:

> Sabarashi means wonderfull.

James, hate to tell you this, but no, it doesn't.
"Subarashii" means wonderful. And it's an
adjective--most named things aren't given adjectives
as names.

he just thought us the

> importance of karate just like Master Funakoshi. i
> have a few of his books and he never metions it in
> the ones i have abt his karate being linked with the
> samurai.

That's because karate, unarmed defense, was developed
by peasants as self-defense against armed samurai.
Peasants weren't allowed to have weapons. Well, that's
the simple version, anyways.

last but not least i also studied some

> chinese martial arts and they have very simular
> princeples. so that lets one know just because the
> teaching is simular the two r not the same.

Many martial arts and traditions have the same values.
You can find that all over the world.

An

> Akaido proverb goes like this:

Not to be picky, but its "Aikido", not "Akaido".

Nate



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--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Actually, "Subarashii" means "wonderful". The only
> thing that I can
> think of close to "Sabarashi" is "Sabarashii", which
> means "like a
> mackerel". You might want to think about renaming
> your sword.

LOL! God, I needed a laugh like that....



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james wilson wrote:

>Sabarashi means wonderfull.
>

No, it doesn't. "Sabarashi" means (well -- "saba rashi" does) "like a
mackerel."

"Wonderful" is "subarashii."

>and thats what i ment ya i know i cannot be samurai i eie say i studied.
>

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Kitsuno wrote:

>--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, james wilson
>wrote:
>
>
>>Sabarashi means wonderfull.
>>
>>
>
>Actually, "Subarashii" means "wonderful". The only thing that I can
>think of close to "Sabarashi" is "Sabarashii", which means "like a
>mackerel". You might want to think about renaming your sword.
>
>
>

LOL! Okay, ignore my previous posting. Great minds and all... ;)

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

james
Im very curious on whom your fencing coach is? As you know as a scholer of kendo, that modesty is a notable value in swordplay , calling your sword wonderfull (or a oily fish lol kitsuno hehe funniest thing all day)
is, if you dont mind me saying slightly vain. Im curious at which fencing school you attended, and under whom you studied i will happily give you all my kendo details in a fair trade hehe, although i did speak to a guy whom named his sword kageonimusha, shadow demon warrior i think please correct me if im wrong, bloody awful name. But if any one can translate (slightly sharp) into japanese id be forever grateful
james wilson <johntwo8@...> wrote:


Sabarashi means wonderfull. and thats what i ment ya i know i cannot be samurai i eie say i studied. but there was a conversation abt how thoses that trained in Japan related their training to that of a samurai. well i can understand that and then i cant. i too studied in Japan. in Kyushu under a great teacher. but i never asked him much abt it. however in like the last year or so i have been or should i say started studing. he just thought us the importance of karate just like Master Funakoshi. i have a few of his books and he never metions it in the ones i have abt his karate being linked with the samurai. last but not least i also studied some chinese martial arts and they have very simular princeples. so that lets one know just because the teaching is simular the two r not the same. An Akaido proverb goes like this: There is many roads that lead to the top of the Mountain. But once at the top the look up at the say moon. theres many ways to look at this but i hope all can relate
this meaning.

peace
GOD BLESS U


Nate Ledbetter wrote:


--- james wilson wrote:

> Hello how r u. i am not a samurai but i train very
> hard in Japanes art and i do my studies like many
> others on this forum. n e who i did name my Katana.
> i think even before i got it. i named it Sabarashi.
> however i have no name for my short blade. well as
> for help on did actual samurai name theres well i
> dont know. but good luck on ur searching. GOD BLESS
> U and have a nice day

James--

Of course you aren't a samurai. It's impossible to be
one, since the samurai class was abolished in the
1870's. Legally none exist anymore. But, on to the
rest of your post.

"Sabarashih, eh? What meaning are you going for? I
can think of multiple kanji combinations, but can't
identify immediately which you might be using to give
meaning.

As for a name for a short sword, I'm not a sword
expert, so I'll leave that to them.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Grow a thick skin, and be willing to learn, and this
>is a nice place. If that bothers you, then I dare you
>to say something like "Anthony Bryant couldn't tell a
>sugake odoshi from a obon odori" and see what happens.

Cheers Nate, that made my eyes water!

Dean
***
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Dean Wayland wrote:

>>Grow a thick skin, and be willing to learn, and this
>>is a nice place. If that bothers you, then I dare you
>>to say something like "Anthony Bryant couldn't tell a
>>sugake odoshi from a obon odori" and see what happens.
>>
>>
>
>Cheers Nate, that made my eyes water!
>
>

Mine, too. Do tears count? :)

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- Dean Wayland <dean@...>
wrote:

> Cheers Nate, that made my eyes water!
>
> Dean

A board without levity is...well....um...a board
without levity.

:)



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Mmmmmmm Nathan, please forgive my own impertinence, but my understanding is that the unarmed (no martial weaponry) styles of
defense were developed as general defensive techniques against all comers.

I realize it is fairly easy to take pot-shots at those who seem --- less literate--- than ourselves. I also grow impatient with
people who wish to declare themselves, or seek, to be, samurai. However, it is possible to develop within ourselves the best of
the samurai traits. It is far easier to be critical, but a challenge to our character to be educators and compassionate.

Lastly, I find myself curious as to Mr. Wilson's age and educational level, whether he is dyslexic, and if English is a second or
third language.

Just for the h-e-double-hockey-sticks of it..... how many of you 'play' in the Society for Creative Anachronism...... if you do, do
you pursue 'European' or 'Asian/Japanese personas? (No, lol, I don't mean as in 'chase' them...)

Lizzie

----- Original Message -----
From: Nate Ledbetter
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] new subject



--- james wilson wrote:

> Sabarashi means wonderfull.

James, hate to tell you this, but no, it doesn't.
"Subarashii" means wonderful. And it's an
adjective--most named things aren't given adjectives
as names.

he just thought us the
> importance of karate just like Master Funakoshi. i
> have a few of his books and he never metions it in
> the ones i have abt his karate being linked with the
> samurai.

That's because karate, unarmed defense, was developed
by peasants as self-defense against armed samurai.
Peasants weren't allowed to have weapons. Well, that's
the simple version, anyways.

last but not least i also studied some
> chinese martial arts and they have very simular
> princeples. so that lets one know just because the
> teaching is simular the two r not the same.

Many martial arts and traditions have the same values.
You can find that all over the world.

An
> Akaido proverb goes like this:

Not to be picky, but its "Aikido", not "Akaido".

Nate



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--- Elizabeth Chase <lizzirrd@...> wrote:

> Mmmmmmm Nathan, please forgive my own impertinence,
> but my understanding is that the unarmed (no martial
> weaponry) styles of
> defense were developed as general defensive
> techniques against all comers.

Impertinence forgiven. The point is that it was
developed by peasants, not samurai, because the
peasants had no weapons. What works against an armed
samurai would be effective against an unarmed
assailant also, no? The original poster was asking
about samurai influence on unarmed martial arts forms.
Rather than being primary developers, they were
primary antagonists. (And now some "expert" will come
in and assail me because unarmed techniques that were
the forerunners of Juujitsu, etc., were developed way
back when for use if you lost your sword, or
something. True. But the point is not the
details--it's that for the most part, the samurai
weren't injecting some mystical bushido into karate.)

> I realize it is fairly easy to take pot-shots at
> those who seem --- less literate--- than ourselves.
> I also grow impatient with
> people who wish to declare themselves, or seek, to
> be, samurai. However, it is possible to develop
> within ourselves the best of
> the samurai traits. It is far easier to be critical,
> but a challenge to our character to be educators and
> compassionate.

I find myself being "compassionate" almost hourly on
this list. I've never, ever questioned that you can
develop traits consistent with the teachings of
Bushido, if you want. However, I also don't question
people who proclaim that "all samurai followed
bushido" or "all samurai were good" or "ninja and
samurai were mortal enemies" or any crap like that. I
simply tell them they're wrong. And if they can't
handle their misconceptions being challenged, that's
when the compassion tends to slip.

> Lastly, I find myself curious as to Mr. Wilson's age
> and educational level, whether he is dyslexic, and
> if English is a second or
> third language.

Myself also. The Lord High Listmaster and myself (I am
only his trusty minion, with a very minor fief in an
outlying area of the list) are working on a new rules
list, and one of those is a request that everyone, oh,
I don't know, USE PUNCTUATION? It's one thing if
English is not your primary language--I can make
allowances for that. However there are many posters on
this list who are not native English speakers and
still can make themselves intelligible. They use
punctuation in most other languages, and it varies
little.

> Just for the h-e-double-hockey-sticks of it..... how
> many of you 'play' in the Society for Creative
> Anachronism...... if you do, do
> you pursue 'European' or 'Asian/Japanese personas?
> (No, lol, I don't mean as in 'chase' them...)

I think many do, and many do both Asian and European
personae. Talk to Tony--he's the grand Poobah when it
comes to Japanese SCA.

Nate



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Wow what a difference today makes. I know u r not like the smartest people in the world but a lil common sense and compassion. Gee wizz if u that smart u should have known what i ment. i dont want to make enimies or nothing but last i checked this was a fun and INFORMAL post. i mean through conversation there is somthing like the meaning being understood. if i were talking to u would i constantly have to say ur name over and over no. i really enjoy the post here and i rarely reply just enjoy the information being exchanged. but to see u pick on something as simple as that made me upset. i mean if u study a bit just a lil of Karate truthfully u had a dojo kun. the very first of it was to seek perfection in character. to seek is to look not that u will ever trully find it. so if u not perfect u should not so loosely be pointing out others imperfections. i am not mad and i know u would like for me to know the correct spelling... hmm GOD BLESS U

peace

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Elizabeth Chase <lizzirrd@...> wrote:

> Mmmmmmm Nathan, please forgive my own impertinence,
> but my understanding is that the unarmed (no martial
> weaponry) styles of
> defense were developed as general defensive
> techniques against all comers.

Impertinence forgiven. The point is that it was
developed by peasants, not samurai, because the
peasants had no weapons. What works against an armed
samurai would be effective against an unarmed
assailant also, no? The original poster was asking
about samurai influence on unarmed martial arts forms.
Rather than being primary developers, they were
primary antagonists. (And now some "expert" will come
in and assail me because unarmed techniques that were
the forerunners of Juujitsu, etc., were developed way
back when for use if you lost your sword, or
something. True. But the point is not the
details--it's that for the most part, the samurai
weren't injecting some mystical bushido into karate.)

> I realize it is fairly easy to take pot-shots at
> those who seem --- less literate--- than ourselves.
> I also grow impatient with
> people who wish to declare themselves, or seek, to
> be, samurai. However, it is possible to develop
> within ourselves the best of
> the samurai traits. It is far easier to be critical,
> but a challenge to our character to be educators and
> compassionate.

I find myself being "compassionate" almost hourly on
this list. I've never, ever questioned that you can
develop traits consistent with the teachings of
Bushido, if you want. However, I also don't question
people who proclaim that "all samurai followed
bushido" or "all samurai were good" or "ninja and
samurai were mortal enemies" or any crap like that. I
simply tell them they're wrong. And if they can't
handle their misconceptions being challenged, that's
when the compassion tends to slip.

> Lastly, I find myself curious as to Mr. Wilson's age
> and educational level, whether he is dyslexic, and
> if English is a second or
> third language.

Myself also. The Lord High Listmaster and myself (I am
only his trusty minion, with a very minor fief in an
outlying area of the list) are working on a new rules
list, and one of those is a request that everyone, oh,
I don't know, USE PUNCTUATION? It's one thing if
English is not your primary language--I can make
allowances for that. However there are many posters on
this list who are not native English speakers and
still can make themselves intelligible. They use
punctuation in most other languages, and it varies
little.

> Just for the h-e-double-hockey-sticks of it..... how
> many of you 'play' in the Society for Creative
> Anachronism...... if you do, do
> you pursue 'European' or 'Asian/Japanese personas?
> (No, lol, I don't mean as in 'chase' them...)

I think many do, and many do both Asian and European
personae. Talk to Tony--he's the grand Poobah when it
comes to Japanese SCA.

Nate



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

james wilson wrote:

>Wow what a difference today makes. I know u r not like the smartest people in the world but a lil common sense and compassion.
>

Please see http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041201

Tony



--

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Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

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--- james wilson <johntwo8@...> wrote:

> Wow what a difference today makes. I know u r not
> like the smartest people in the world but a lil
> common sense and compassion. Gee wizz if u that
> smart u should have known what i ment.

Huh? What are you talking about?

i dont want

> to make enimies or nothing but last i checked this
> was a fun and INFORMAL post. i mean through
> conversation there is somthing like the meaning
> being understood. if i were talking to u would i
> constantly have to say ur name over and over no. i
> really enjoy the post here and i rarely reply just
> enjoy the information being exchanged. but to see u
> pick on something as simple as that made me upset.

As simple as what? You haven't clarified what you are
talking about. What do you think we were picking on?
Do you think we were picking on you? I certainly
didn't think so--generally when I pick on someone,
they know it.

i

> mean if u study a bit just a lil of Karate
> truthfully u had a dojo kun. the very first of it
> was to seek perfection in character. to seek is to
> look not that u will ever trully find it. so if u
> not perfect u should not so loosely be pointing out
> others imperfections. i am not mad and i know u
> would like for me to know the correct spelling...
> hmm GOD BLESS U

Look, I'm not exactly sure why you're upset, but you
shouldn't take anything personally. As far as I can
tell nothing was directly aimed at you--unless you are
upset about comments about spelling and grammar. And
being as you still refuse to spell out the word "u" or
use capital letters, that can't be bothering you too
much.

If you've got a specific issue, please email me off
list (ltdomer98@...).

Nate

Managment, 3rd Class.




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LOL
--- Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> james wilson wrote:
>
> >Wow what a difference today makes. I know u r not
> like the smartest people in the world but a lil
> common sense and compassion.
> >
>
> Please see
> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041201
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> --
>
> Anthony J. Bryant
> Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
>
> Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
> http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html
>
> Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
> http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
>
>
>
>

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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>LOL
>
>

The first thing I do after logging in every day is look at the day's
"User Friendly." I recommend it highly. :)


Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

oh thats funny

Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:
james wilson wrote:

>Wow what a difference today makes. I know u r not like the smartest people in the world but a lil common sense and compassion.
>

Please see http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041201

Tony



--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >" a lil common sense and compassion."
> >
>

This is compassion. That someone is willing to take the time to correct
someone, to point them in a direction that will engender respect rather than
derision *IS* compassion. It would be far easier to assume that someone is
an ignorant uneducated lout not worth the bandwidth to reply to. It's called
positive peer pressure.

M.J.Peters

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Yes I agree with what you are saying, the samurai had an influence on Karate and were not developers of, or were they? For example master Funakoshi who developed the Shotokan style was from a long line of Samurai, he even wore the traditional top not as a sign of his heritage. I belong to the JKAE (japan karate association of england) master Funakoshi set up the JKA the first Karate association in the world. And if you go to www.jka.or.jp it will tell you that true Karate is derived from Bushido, the Dojo Kun and the 20 Precepts all come from Bushido, so I suggest you study more in the art of Karate and it's history.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Elizabeth Chase
wrote:

> Mmmmmmm Nathan, please forgive my own impertinence,
> but my understanding is that the unarmed (no martial
> weaponry) styles of
> defense were developed as general defensive
> techniques against all comers.

Impertinence forgiven. The point is that it was
developed by peasants, not samurai, because the
peasants had no weapons. What works against an armed
samurai would be effective against an unarmed
assailant also, no? The original poster was asking
about samurai influence on unarmed martial arts forms.
Rather than being primary developers, they were
primary antagonists. (And now some "expert" will come
in and assail me because unarmed techniques that were
the forerunners of Juujitsu, etc., were developed way
back when for use if you lost your sword, or
something. True. But the point is not the
details--it's that for the most part, the samurai
weren't injecting some mystical bushido into karate.)

> I realize it is fairly easy to take pot-shots at
> those who seem --- less literate--- than ourselves.
> I also grow impatient with
> people who wish to declare themselves, or seek, to
> be, samurai. However, it is possible to develop
> within ourselves the best of
> the samurai traits. It is far easier to be critical,
> but a challenge to our character to be educators and
> compassionate.

I find myself being "compassionate" almost hourly on
this list. I've never, ever questioned that you can
develop traits consistent with the teachings of
Bushido, if you want. However, I also don't question
people who proclaim that "all samurai followed
bushido" or "all samurai were good" or "ninja and
samurai were mortal enemies" or any crap like that. I
simply tell them they're wrong. And if they can't
handle their misconceptions being challenged, that's
when the compassion tends to slip.

> Lastly, I find myself curious as to Mr. Wilson's age
> and educational level, whether he is dyslexic, and
> if English is a second or
> third language.

Myself also. The Lord High Listmaster and myself (I am
only his trusty minion, with a very minor fief in an
outlying area of the list) are working on a new rules
list, and one of those is a request that everyone, oh,
I don't know, USE PUNCTUATION? It's one thing if
English is not your primary language--I can make
allowances for that. However there are many posters on
this list who are not native English speakers and
still can make themselves intelligible. They use
punctuation in most other languages, and it varies
little.

> Just for the h-e-double-hockey-sticks of it..... how
> many of you 'play' in the Society for Creative
> Anachronism...... if you do, do
> you pursue 'European' or 'Asian/Japanese personas?
> (No, lol, I don't mean as in 'chase' them...)

I think many do, and many do both Asian and European
personae. Talk to Tony--he's the grand Poobah when it
comes to Japanese SCA.

Nate



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The JKA are the leading federation on the subject of shotokan and if you go to their website www.jka.or.jp then you will see that true Karate is linked to Bushido in a huge way, but like most thing must be prised out by studying of the 20 Precepts and the philosophy of the art.
Okay.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:


--- james wilson wrote:

> Sabarashi means wonderfull.

James, hate to tell you this, but no, it doesn't.
"Subarashii" means wonderful. And it's an
adjective--most named things aren't given adjectives
as names.

he just thought us the

> importance of karate just like Master Funakoshi. i
> have a few of his books and he never metions it in
> the ones i have abt his karate being linked with the
> samurai.

That's because karate, unarmed defense, was developed
by peasants as self-defense against armed samurai.
Peasants weren't allowed to have weapons. Well, that's
the simple version, anyways.

last but not least i also studied some

> chinese martial arts and they have very simular
> princeples. so that lets one know just because the
> teaching is simular the two r not the same.

Many martial arts and traditions have the same values.
You can find that all over the world.

An

> Akaido proverb goes like this:

Not to be picky, but its "Aikido", not "Akaido".

Nate



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- luke berryman <luke_berryman@...> wrote:

> Yes I agree with what you are saying, the samurai
> had an influence on Karate and were not developers
> of, or were they? For example master Funakoshi who
> developed the Shotokan style was from a long line of
> Samurai, he even wore the traditional top not as a
> sign of his heritage.

I studied Shotokan for a while, and have a tremendous
respect for it and Master Funakoshi. And I'm aware of
his samurai heritage. However, he didn't "INVENT"
Karate. He adapted it from Okinawan open-hand
fighting. He DEVELOPED it, but didn't create it.

I belong to the JKAE (japan

> karate association of england) master Funakoshi set
> up the JKA the first Karate association in the
> world. And if you go to www.jka.or.jp it will tell
> you that true Karate is derived from Bushido, the
> Dojo Kun and the 20 Precepts all come from Bushido,
> so I suggest you study more in the art of Karate and
> it's history.

Of course it does. It's going to say it has no ethical
value system, or mode of behavior? Of course not--it's
going to use the one it can most easily associate
with. I'm sure they do their best to incorporate the
values in Bushido that they feel are worthy. Nothing
wrong with that. However, that doesn't make karate a
samurai art based in bushido anymore than my living in
Shibuya makes me an Edokko.

This is the difference I talked about when I said
karate became and art, and not simply breaking the
limbs of an attacker. I hardly think the Okinawan
peasants who first started putting together techniques
cared much about bushido--they probably cared a whole
lot more about other people beating them up and taking
their crops, etc. If you want to focus on history,
then take a look at when Master Funakoshi lived--1868
to 1957. He was born in the same year the Meiji
Restoration took place, and was a youth when the
Samurai were abolished.

I suggest YOU study a little bit more about bushido.
Hardly a pervasive ethical value system through much
of Japanese history. Fine ideals if you care, but much
of bushido post-dates the beginning of the Tokugawa
period, and was hardly the concern of the
aforementioned Okinawan peasants.




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--- luke berryman <luke_berryman@...> wrote:

>
> The JKA are the leading federation on the subject of
> shotokan and if you go to their website
> www.jka.or.jp then you will see that true Karate is
> linked to Bushido in a huge way, but like most thing
> must be prised out by studying of the 20 Precepts
> and the philosophy of the art.
> Okay.

Developed and codified in the 20th century. Are you
completely missing the fact that karate began well
before this?



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correct me if im wrong (I know you will lol) wasnt karate devloped on okinawa.

luke berryman <luke_berryman@...> wrote:
Yes I agree with what you are saying, the samurai had an influence on Karate and were not developers of, or were they? For example master Funakoshi who developed the Shotokan style was from a long line of Samurai, he even wore the traditional top not as a sign of his heritage. I belong to the JKAE (japan karate association of england) master Funakoshi set up the JKA the first Karate association in the world. And if you go to www.jka.or.jp it will tell you that true Karate is derived from Bushido, the Dojo Kun and the 20 Precepts all come from Bushido, so I suggest you study more in the art of Karate and it's history.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Elizabeth Chase
wrote:

> Mmmmmmm Nathan, please forgive my own impertinence,
> but my understanding is that the unarmed (no martial
> weaponry) styles of
> defense were developed as general defensive
> techniques against all comers.

Impertinence forgiven. The point is that it was
developed by peasants, not samurai, because the
peasants had no weapons. What works against an armed
samurai would be effective against an unarmed
assailant also, no? The original poster was asking
about samurai influence on unarmed martial arts forms.
Rather than being primary developers, they were
primary antagonists. (And now some "expert" will come
in and assail me because unarmed techniques that were
the forerunners of Juujitsu, etc., were developed way
back when for use if you lost your sword, or
something. True. But the point is not the
details--it's that for the most part, the samurai
weren't injecting some mystical bushido into karate.)

> I realize it is fairly easy to take pot-shots at
> those who seem --- less literate--- than ourselves.
> I also grow impatient with
> people who wish to declare themselves, or seek, to
> be, samurai. However, it is possible to develop
> within ourselves the best of
> the samurai traits. It is far easier to be critical,
> but a challenge to our character to be educators and
> compassionate.

I find myself being "compassionate" almost hourly on
this list. I've never, ever questioned that you can
develop traits consistent with the teachings of
Bushido, if you want. However, I also don't question
people who proclaim that "all samurai followed
bushido" or "all samurai were good" or "ninja and
samurai were mortal enemies" or any crap like that. I
simply tell them they're wrong. And if they can't
handle their misconceptions being challenged, that's
when the compassion tends to slip.

> Lastly, I find myself curious as to Mr. Wilson's age
> and educational level, whether he is dyslexic, and
> if English is a second or
> third language.

Myself also. The Lord High Listmaster and myself (I am
only his trusty minion, with a very minor fief in an
outlying area of the list) are working on a new rules
list, and one of those is a request that everyone, oh,
I don't know, USE PUNCTUATION? It's one thing if
English is not your primary language--I can make
allowances for that. However there are many posters on
this list who are not native English speakers and
still can make themselves intelligible. They use
punctuation in most other languages, and it varies
little.

> Just for the h-e-double-hockey-sticks of it..... how
> many of you 'play' in the Society for Creative
> Anachronism...... if you do, do
> you pursue 'European' or 'Asian/Japanese personas?
> (No, lol, I don't mean as in 'chase' them...)

I think many do, and many do both Asian and European
personae. Talk to Tony--he's the grand Poobah when it
comes to Japanese SCA.

Nate



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes I do know that Karate began before this. But what I am saying is that master Funakoshi's style is derived directly from the old ways of Okinawa. Just because JKA was formed in the 20th century does not mean that it has lost the old ways.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- luke berryman wrote:

>
> The JKA are the leading federation on the subject of
> shotokan and if you go to their website
> www.jka.or.jp then you will see that true Karate is
> linked to Bushido in a huge way, but like most thing
> must be prised out by studying of the 20 Precepts
> and the philosophy of the art.
> Okay.

Developed and codified in the 20th century. Are you
completely missing the fact that karate began well
before this?



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You all should read ashida kims website, i laughed so much ( buy a balaclava
and you too could be a mystic ninja !!!)


What is the link?

Matt

"Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...> wrote:You all should read ashida kims website, i laughed so much ( buy a balaclava
and you too could be a mystic ninja !!!)


What is the link?

Matt

Soz matt, its www.ashidakim.com i suggest the sh#t list section , seriously though scary that there are individuals like this guy around!!

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I went to the site.

I feel violated now.

Sorry, Bwa hahahahahahahahah! What a great wodgin' load of excrement.

james wallis <kentguy212002@...> wrote:



"Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...> wrote:You all should read ashida kims website, i laughed so much ( buy a balaclava
and you too could be a mystic ninja !!!)


What is the link?

Matt

Soz matt, its www.ashidakim.com i suggest the sh#t list section , seriously though scary that there are individuals like this guy around!!

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