Samurai Inquiry

I do realize I might not find the answer for this, but I'm
looking for a specific samurai. He was involved with Sekigahara, and
left his lord to protect and be with a geisha he loved. He might
have been hunted for it, but I'm absolutely sure he was ronin after
he left. What else wold he have been?

I do realize I might not find the answer for this, but I'm
looking for a specific samurai. He was involved with Sekigahara, and
left his lord to protect and be with a geisha he loved. He might
have been hunted for it, but I'm absolutely sure he was ronin after
he left. What else would he have been?

Sounds more like something out of a bad romance novel
than anything historical. You don't have any more
details? The main thing that bothers me is that geisha
didn't really exist, as such, until later in the
Tokugawa. There were courtesans, but they weren't
called geisha at the time.

Nate

--- "Tenshi, Rose, and Toni"
<madmadotakuchick@...> wrote:

>
>
> I do realize I might not find the answer for
> this, but I'm
> looking for a specific samurai. He was involved with
> Sekigahara, and
> left his lord to protect and be with a geisha he
> loved. He might
> have been hunted for it, but I'm absolutely sure he
> was ronin after
> he left. What else would he have been?
>
>
>
>

__________________________________
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Au contraire, mon cherie! Geishas or courtesans started in 1600
(Edo). They may not be sure, but there might be one or two off of
record from something earlier, but no traceable and irrefutable
proof. I've plenty more details about it, but that's all I'd prefer
to disclose at the moment. Besides, who's to say it wasn't a few to
some years after that he'd sworn to protect her? Regardless, despite
_YOU_ think it's out of a bad romance novel, it isn't. I won't
disclose why It's proven, but I can guarantee it. ^_^ Anyways...
What's the name?

Yuk it up. Go ahead and poke fun of the "Bad Romance Novel"
story. The art of geishas dates back to 1600 (Edo, Just after
Sekigahara), and there were DEFINITLY (whores. I've the good
consience not to call them such, because msot didn't want the
lifestyle, but got into it to survive.) I've irrefutable proof of
this story being a real one and I'll be damned if a cynical asshole
like you messes with me. You can help me or you can stay out of my
way. What will it be? e_e

1. Refrain from calling anyone an asshole,
please--especially one who has the power of whether or
not you can post to this list. The only reason I'm
letting you by is because you referred to me--had you
called anyone else a "cynical asshole", I'd
immediately ban you from the list. Since you directed
it at me, you get a second chance.

2. Just because something started IN the Edo period,
doesn't mean it began in the same year the period
began.

Try here:
http://geisya.cutegirl.jp/geisyanorekisi.html

First thing on the page says at the "END" of the Edo
period. This is the first webpage that came up in my
google search.

In case you can't read Japanese, here's another:

http://oldworld.sjsu.edu/asiangate/floating_world/geishah.html

This pins it at 1770, though I'm not sure it could be
that exact. However it perfectly explains the
difference between "Geisha" (�|���j"art persons", and
"Yujo", prostitutes.

3. It's no one's "JOB" to help you. And if you'll shut
your trap and read, you'll see I was TRYING too--YOU
NEED TO GIVE US MORE DETAILS THAN THIS. Chances are
someone here can find your samurai, if you have more
information. Telling me he was involved in Sekigahara
doesn't mean squat--there were over 100,000 samurai
involved in Sekigahara, not counting multiple
side-battles. Telling me he deserted his lord because
he was in love with a Geisha tells me squat, because
you are using the term incorrectly. GEISHA were a mid
to late Edo period development. In 1600, the Edo
period BEGAN. ERGO, He couldn't have been in love with
a geisha. Courtesan, yes. Geisha, no.

4. If you get pissed off everytime someone says this
sounds like something out of a bad romance novel,
you're going to be in for a lot of anger management
sessions. Perhaps I should have said "out of a bad
Chikamatsu play" or "Ihara Saikaku" novel. Would that
have bruised your ego less?

LISTEN UP, EVERYONE: I'VE HAD IT! If you're going to
take anything said to you personally when you ask a
question with no clarifying information and incorrect
background, then don't ask the question! This is an
email list meant to perpetuate a flow of information
and KNOWLEDGE! If what you think you know is WRONG,
someone will tell you. DEAL WITH IT! I've been wrong,
Kitsuno's been wrong, Tony's been wrong...sometime, I
think, in 1999...point is, people who study this stuff
for a living make mistakes too--therefore, if it is
your first time here, DO NOT get bent out of shape,
okay?

No one is "yuk(king) it up". And the only thing
standing in your way is your lack of any identifiable
details that can allow others to help identify this
person.

���������������������I

�l�C�g


--- "Tenshi, Rose, and Toni"
<madmadotakuchick@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Yuk it up. Go ahead and poke fun of the "Bad
> Romance Novel"
> story. The art of geishas dates back to 1600 (Edo,
> Just after
> Sekigahara), and there were DEFINITLY (whores. I've
> the good
> consience not to call them such, because msot didn't
> want the
> lifestyle, but got into it to survive.) I've
> irrefutable proof of
> this story being a real one and I'll be damned if a
> cynical asshole
> like you messes with me. You can help me or you can
> stay out of my
> way. What will it be? e_e
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

_______________________________
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I just looked at your email address...this explains it
all.

�������B�B�B�B



--- "Tenshi, Rose, and Toni"
<madmadotakuchick@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Au contraire, mon cherie! Geishas or courtesans
> started in 1600
> (Edo). They may not be sure, but there might be one
> or two off of
> record from something earlier, but no traceable and
> irrefutable
> proof. I've plenty more details about it, but that's
> all I'd prefer
> to disclose at the moment. Besides, who's to say it
> wasn't a few to
> some years after that he'd sworn to protect her?
> Regardless, despite
> _YOU_ think it's out of a bad romance novel, it
> isn't. I won't
> disclose why It's proven, but I can guarantee it.
> ^_^ Anyways...
> What's the name?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

_______________________________
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Dear Lovers of Pure Knowledge,

Ahhhh, I love the smell of burning keyboard oil in the evening...

> LISTEN UP, EVERYONE: I'VE HAD IT!
> If you're going to take anything said to you
> personally when you ask a question with no
> clarifying information and incorrect background,
> then don't ask the question! This is an email
> list meant to perpetuate a flow of information
> and KNOWLEDGE! If what you think you
> know is WRONG, someone will tell you.

Well, you could have fooled me!! Those with long memories will know exactly
to what I'm referring!! I like a list with a bit of spice and armour plated
egos coupled with hard-won expert knowledge and I have a VERY thick skin -
BUT - I have on more than one occasion received list replies to my pitiful
offerings from at least two individuals that could have been interpreted as
sarcasm or put-downs. I have chosen to interpret these as blunt humour or
sardonic humour or... (email not being an easy medium in which to express
such concepts). I have also perceived it dealt out to others with
consequent apologies for being misunderstood when the recipients squawked
"ABUSE..."

I smiled at the armour-piercing humour of "Tenshi, Rose, and Toni
<madmadotakuchick@...>" coupled with a velvet glove challenge whacked
across the cheek because I'm quite used to it.

OK (1) - now rip the stuffing out of this reply if you are so inclined...

OK (2) - now to be useful. There was a Daimyo in the Edo period who, having
just inherited his fief, did indeed shortly thereafter fall in love with a
geisha. It must be true because I read it somewhere in the last 40 years of
my lust in reading about swords and the samurai. This man was besotted with
the lass and squandered his family's fortune to the extent that he was
dis-inherited by the Shogunate. This story may have been in Mitford's
"Tales of the Samurai", Lafcadio Hearn's 2-volume set that I have, in a
similar such book of tales, or in one of the many Sword Society journals I
have gathered over the years.

So, I can verify "Tenshi, Rose, and Toni <madmadotakuchick@...>'s"
observation that the story has credibility in my reading. As for a name of
the samurai, it was in the story but I cannot remember it. If anyone is
serious about the name I'll have an archeaological dig into my voluminous
library...

Can I close by thanking those who devote so much time to the great success
of the list and to enlighten many of us lesser mortals with their
encyclopaedic knowledge of the Samurai. I dips my lid to 'ee.

With best regards,

Barry Thomas
(Melbourne, Australia)

What do you mean "that explains it"? You think I got it out of
some samurai movie, anime, manga, etc.? Forget this. e_e I'll just
save you the trouble of booting me out and leave on my own; however,
it'll have to wait a bit due to school.

Regardless of your emotional state, this:

"I do realize I might not find the answer for this, but I'm
looking for a specific samurai. He was involved with Sekigahara, and
left his lord to protect and be with a geisha he loved. He might
have been hunted for it, but I'm absolutely sure he was ronin after
he left. What else would he have been?"

is brutally vague in the extreme. If you cant give a single detail
more on this, or even where you found it, I can guarantee that no one
will be able to help you. This:

":YOU_ think it's out of a bad romance novel, it isn't. I won't
disclose why It's proven, but I can guarantee it."

is absolutely worthless information, and after posting something like
that I seriously doubt anyone will even be interested in helping you.
Do you want actual information on this, or are you just trying to
play some childish quiz game? If you are playing some sort of quiz
game, I dont think anyone else is playing. If you WANT information,
you are going to need to be more specific.

Another word of friendly advice, if you get offended every time
anyone says anything that doesnt sit well with you, you are not going
to get far in life, or you will give yourself a heart attack.

Regards,

Your list owner.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Tenshi, Rose, and Toni"
wrote:

>
>
>
> What do you mean "that explains it"? You think I got it out of
> some samurai movie, anime, manga, etc.? Forget this. e_e I'll just
> save you the trouble of booting me out and leave on my own;

however,

> it'll have to wait a bit due to school.

Dear Brothers,

> Regardless of your emotional state, this:
>> ...
> is brutally vague in the extreme. If you cant give a single
> detail more on this, or even where you found it, I can
> guarantee that no one will be able to help you...

Well, granted the original presentation was far from scholarly, but surely
I'm not the only one to (a) find it intriguing and (b) find a little bell
ringing in my head, not from the Sengoku Jidai but from mid-Edo. Granted
the riposte from our original questioner was a far from measured response,
but the replies from Dear List Owner and others whose name/s escape me
hardly encourages anyone to ask any question at all, no matter how seemingly
not PC for the eminent scholars on this list. Reminds of the lampoons I
have got... So, why do I persist with this list? Because I love the
subject matter and see it as an important adjunct to my sword studies and
collecting, and because the awesome knowledge of practitioners in the field
just takes my breath away.

Can't we be a little less uptight on this list??

Barry Thomas
(Melbourne, Australia - just over the road from Jim Breen's campus)

It really is not an issue of scholarship. First he asks a vague
question, which is fine. but he also later mentions that he has more
information that he then refuses to release, which tells me he isnt
very interested in getting information. The response that offended
him seemed pretty benign to me, but that is just my humble opinion.
Regardless, it makes sense to me that if you ask a question, you try
to include as much information as possible, which he apparently
didnt do if he is now bragging about having other information.
Anyway, these groups are pretty easy, but not always a one way
street. Just because you ask for someone to do your homework for you
doesnt mean they will do it willingly. People tend to want a reason
to do you work for you. That was part of what I was trying to say.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Thomas"
wrote:

>
> Dear Brothers,
>
> > Regardless of your emotional state, this:
> >> ...
> > is brutally vague in the extreme. If you cant give a single
> > detail more on this, or even where you found it, I can
> > guarantee that no one will be able to help you...
>
> Well, granted the original presentation was far from scholarly,

but surely

> I'm not the only one to (a) find it intriguing and (b) find a

little bell

> ringing in my head, not from the Sengoku Jidai but from mid-Edo.

Granted

> the riposte from our original questioner was a far from measured

response,

> but the replies from Dear List Owner and others whose name/s

escape me

> hardly encourages anyone to ask any question at all, no matter how

seemingly

> not PC for the eminent scholars on this list. Reminds of the

lampoons I

> have got... So, why do I persist with this list? Because I love

the

> subject matter and see it as an important adjunct to my sword

studies and

> collecting, and because the awesome knowledge of practitioners in

the field

> just takes my breath away.
>
> Can't we be a little less uptight on this list??
>
> Barry Thomas
> (Melbourne, Australia - just over the road from Jim Breen's campus)

It really is not an issue of scholarship. First he asks a vague
question, which is fine. but he also later mentions that he has more
information that he then refuses to release, which tells me he isnt
very interested in getting information. The response that offended
him seemed pretty benign to me, but that is just my humble opinion.
Regardless, it makes sense to me that if you ask a question, you try
to include as much information as possible, which he apparently
didnt do if he is now bragging about having other information.
Anyway, these groups are pretty easy, but not always a one way
street. Just because you ask for someone to do your homework for you
doesnt mean they will do it willingly. People tend to want a reason
to do you work for you. That was part of what I was trying to say.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Thomas"
wrote:

>
> Dear Brothers,
>
> > Regardless of your emotional state, this:
> >> ...
> > is brutally vague in the extreme. If you cant give a single
> > detail more on this, or even where you found it, I can
> > guarantee that no one will be able to help you...
>
> Well, granted the original presentation was far from scholarly,

but surely

> I'm not the only one to (a) find it intriguing and (b) find a

little bell

> ringing in my head, not from the Sengoku Jidai but from mid-Edo.

Granted

> the riposte from our original questioner was a far from measured

response,

> but the replies from Dear List Owner and others whose name/s

escape me

> hardly encourages anyone to ask any question at all, no matter how

seemingly

> not PC for the eminent scholars on this list. Reminds of the

lampoons I

> have got... So, why do I persist with this list? Because I love

the

> subject matter and see it as an important adjunct to my sword

studies and

> collecting, and because the awesome knowledge of practitioners in

the field

> just takes my breath away.
>
> Can't we be a little less uptight on this list??
>
> Barry Thomas
> (Melbourne, Australia - just over the road from Jim Breen's campus)

My use of the phrase "bad romance novel" in no way,
shape, or form, justified an attack on my person using
foul language. That is not the act of someone who
wants answers. The impression is that this person read
something somewhere, potentially fictional, and
believes it to be real. Fine--no problem. To me, it
doesn't sound real. It certainly doesn't sound like
anything I'm familiar with, at least with no further
information to draw from. However, I'm fully willing
to grant it may be a story based on some real events,
and would be happy to help find what those events
were, if I could. I cannot, especially when told "I
know more about this, but won't tell you." Please.

It is not the responsibility of anyone on this board
to soothe egoes or confirm erroneous beliefs. You have
the right to incorrectly believe geisha existed in
1600--you do not have the right to call people who
tell you that you are incorrect and present facts
dirty names.

My reply may have been sardonic, but was not
offensive. I didn't call anyone any names. As a
subordinate list moderator, I was well within my
rights granted by Kitsuno to simply delete the email
and ban the person from posting. I did not, as it was
an attack directly on me--I chose not to act so I
could not be accused of acting out of malice. Kitsuno
can decide to ban or not ban, delete or not delete.

If you want information, this is a great place to be.
If you want affirmation, go see a therapist.


--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

>
> It really is not an issue of scholarship. First he
> asks a vague
> question, which is fine. but he also later mentions
> that he has more
> information that he then refuses to release, which
> tells me he isnt
> very interested in getting information. The
> response that offended
> him seemed pretty benign to me, but that is just my
> humble opinion.
> Regardless, it makes sense to me that if you ask a
> question, you try
> to include as much information as possible, which he
> apparently
> didnt do if he is now bragging about having other
> information.
> Anyway, these groups are pretty easy, but not always
> a one way
> street. Just because you ask for someone to do your
> homework for you
> doesnt mean they will do it willingly. People tend
> to want a reason
> to do you work for you. That was part of what I was
> trying to say.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Barry
> Thomas"
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Brothers,
> >
> > > Regardless of your emotional state, this:
> > >> ...
> > > is brutally vague in the extreme. If you cant
> give a single
> > > detail more on this, or even where you found it,
> I can
> > > guarantee that no one will be able to help
> you...
> >
> > Well, granted the original presentation was far
> from scholarly,
> but surely
> > I'm not the only one to (a) find it intriguing and
> (b) find a
> little bell
> > ringing in my head, not from the Sengoku Jidai but
> from mid-Edo.
> Granted
> > the riposte from our original questioner was a far
> from measured
> response,
> > but the replies from Dear List Owner and others
> whose name/s
> escape me
> > hardly encourages anyone to ask any question at
> all, no matter how
> seemingly
> > not PC for the eminent scholars on this list.
> Reminds of the
> lampoons I
> > have got... So, why do I persist with this list?
> Because I love
> the
> > subject matter and see it as an important adjunct
> to my sword
> studies and
> > collecting, and because the awesome knowledge of
> practitioners in
> the field
> > just takes my breath away.
> >
> > Can't we be a little less uptight on this list??
> >
> > Barry Thomas
> > (Melbourne, Australia - just over the road from
> Jim Breen's campus)
>
>
>
>

_______________________________
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Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com

Hello Brothers;
Firstly i am new to the forum and as i have been reading along the past few days i have seen truly, in my humble opinion...the best gathering of shared knowledge, truth, and comraderie since my days as a U.S. Marine. Stating that everyone here has a passion for the subject and era(s) would be a gross understatement. I have been reading & researching Japanese history for the better part of my life and i am finally within a group where i feel i can converse openly, freely & most of all...continue to learn. Please pardon me for being overly ecstatic, but this forum is just truly what i have been looking for in a nutshell. I have recently returned from Okinawa, Japan...but luckily for me i am sure none of you will hold that against me (i hope that was funny to some, give me a little face...please) but have been over mainland Japan as well and there are not many places in Japan or Asia period that i have not traveled. On my own or through the U.S. Military. So i offer my modest thanks and praise for being able to exist within the forum...
Secondly; i agree with the statements of Mr. Wayland...to request for information one must truly want to seek the truth. As i am sure we all know, one of the staples of Bushido was that it was commonplace to seek constructive criticism from your peers...for as Tsunetomo said: "If you judge and manage every affair while depending only on your small learning and wisdom...etc." The point is that you cannot ask a question with the intention of getting only the answer you desire.
Thirdly; i wanted to acquire some books or writings if possible explaining the history of the Yakuza as a sort of "police force" in their origination, i am not sure if this is correct, but i am really looking for a sort of timeline from their beginning and how they progressed and changed. Any assistance in this manner would be extremely grateful. Continued Blessings!

--- On Wed 10/13, Nate Ledbetter < ltdomer98@... > wrote:
From: Nate Ledbetter [mailto: ltdomer98@...]
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Inquiry





My use of the phrase "bad romance novel" in no way,

shape, or form, justified an attack on my person using

foul language. That is not the act of someone who

wants answers. The impression is that this person read

something somewhere, potentially fictional, and

believes it to be real. Fine--no problem. To me, it

doesn't sound real. It certainly doesn't sound like

anything I'm familiar with, at least with no further

information to draw from. However, I'm fully willing

to grant it may be a story based on some real events,

and would be happy to help find what those events

were, if I could. I cannot, especially when told "I

know more about this, but won't tell you." Please.



It is not the responsibility of anyone on this board

to soothe egoes or confirm erroneous beliefs. You have

the right to incorrectly believe geisha existed in

1600--you do not have the right to call people who

tell you that you are incorrect and present facts

dirty names.



My reply may have been sardonic, but was not

offensive. I didn't call anyone any names. As a

subordinate list moderator, I was well within my

rights granted by Kitsuno to simply delete the email

and ban the person from posting. I did not, as it was

an attack directly on me--I chose not to act so I

could not be accused of acting out of malice. Kitsuno

can decide to ban or not ban, delete or not delete.



If you want information, this is a great place to be.

If you want affirmation, go see a therapist.





--- Kitsuno

wrote:



>

> It really is not an issue of scholarship.� First he

> asks a vague

> question, which is fine. but he also later mentions

> that he has more

> information that he then refuses to release, which

> tells me he isnt

> very interested in getting information.� The

> response that offended

> him seemed pretty benign to me, but that is just my

> humble opinion.�

> Regardless, it makes sense to me that if you ask a

> question, you try

> to include as much information as possible, which he

> apparently

> didnt do if he is now bragging about having other

> information.�

> Anyway, these groups are pretty easy, but not always

> a one way

> street. Just because you ask for someone to do your

> homework for you

> doesnt mean they will do it willingly. People tend

> to want a reason

> to do you work for you. That was part of what I was

> trying to say.

>

>

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Barry

> Thomas"

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Brothers,

> >

> > > Regardless of your emotional state, this:

> > >> ...

> > > is brutally vague in the extreme.� If you cant

> give a single

> > > detail more on this, or even where you found it,

> I can

> > > guarantee that no one will be able to help

> you...

> >

> > Well, granted the original presentation was far

> from scholarly,

> but surely

> > I'm not the only one to (a) find it intriguing and

> (b) find a

> little bell

> > ringing in my head, not from the Sengoku Jidai but

> from mid-Edo.�

> Granted

> > the riposte from our original questioner was a far

> from measured

> response,

> > but the replies from Dear List Owner and others

> whose name/s

> escape me

> > hardly encourages anyone to ask any question at

> all, no matter how

> seemingly

> > not PC for the eminent scholars on this list.

> Reminds of the

> lampoons I

> > have got...� So, why do I persist with this list?

> Because I love

> the

> > subject matter and see it as an important adjunct

> to my sword

> studies and

> > collecting, and because the awesome knowledge of

> practitioners in

> the field

> > just takes my breath away.

> >

> > Can't we be a little less uptight on this list??

> >

> > Barry Thomas

> > (Melbourne, Australia - just over the road from

> Jim Breen's campus)

>

>

>

>







����� �����

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> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Tenshi, Rose, and Toni"
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >��� What do you mean "that explains it"? You think I got it out of
> > some samurai movie, anime, manga, etc.? Forget this. e_e I'll just
> > save you the trouble of booting me out and leave on my own;
> however,
> > it'll have to wait a bit due to school.
>
>
>
>

Theres a school for unsubscribing to this list!?!