Takeda lands question

I got a question.The Takeda clan had at some point lands in Aki and other near provinces and the Mori tried to conquer them????

Edy


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--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> I got a question.The Takeda clan had at some point
> lands in Aki and other near provinces and the Mori
> tried to conquer them????
>
> Edy

You're playing too much Shogun: Total War.

The Takeda were a Shugo family under the Ashikaga
Shogunate. At one time, they held appointments in Aki,
but it was well before the Mori came to prominence.
When Mori Motonari defeated Sue Harukata at Miyajima
in 1551 to take control of the former Ouchi lands, the
Takeda clan was concentrated in Kai under Shingen, and
was busy fighting the Uesugi, Hojo, Imagawa, et al.
The Takeda were long gone from Aki by this point.

It gets confusing, because there were about 8 or 9
families that held multiple Shugo appointments under
the Ashikaga, often with no semblance of geographic
relations (by design, perhaps). The Shiba held
appointments in Owari, Totomi, Echizen, and a couple
other provinces on and off. The Takeda were at various
times Shugo of Aki, Wakasa, Kai (their traditional
home, I believe), and possibly somewhere in Kyushu for
a brief period. The Imagawa had Suruga, lands in
northern Kyushu, etc. In the transition from Ashikaga
Shugo to Sengoku daimyo, if the shugo family survived,
usually in centralized in one location and lost it's
land elsewhere. Takeda centralized in Kai, Imagawa in
Suruga, etc. The Shiba died. Other shugo daimyo like
the Shimazu held contiguous holdings (Satsuma, Osumi,
part of Hyuga) so it was fairly easy to hold onto
their territory and make the transition. Of course,
they became Ashikaga Shugo for the same reason
Hideyoshi and Ieyasu later confirmed them in their
holdings--it would have been harder to uproot them
than to just let them stay, since the Shimazu had
ruled the area since, oh, about the time of Jimmu
Tenno, it seems.



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Thanx for giving me some info.I just wanted to know if it was real.

Edy



Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> I got a question.The Takeda clan had at some point
> lands in Aki and other near provinces and the Mori
> tried to conquer them????
>
> Edy

You're playing too much Shogun: Total War.

The Takeda were a Shugo family under the Ashikaga
Shogunate. At one time, they held appointments in Aki,
but it was well before the Mori came to prominence.
When Mori Motonari defeated Sue Harukata at Miyajima
in 1551 to take control of the former Ouchi lands, the
Takeda clan was concentrated in Kai under Shingen, and
was busy fighting the Uesugi, Hojo, Imagawa, et al.
The Takeda were long gone from Aki by this point.

It gets confusing, because there were about 8 or 9
families that held multiple Shugo appointments under
the Ashikaga, often with no semblance of geographic
relations (by design, perhaps). The Shiba held
appointments in Owari, Totomi, Echizen, and a couple
other provinces on and off. The Takeda were at various
times Shugo of Aki, Wakasa, Kai (their traditional
home, I believe), and possibly somewhere in Kyushu for
a brief period. The Imagawa had Suruga, lands in
northern Kyushu, etc. In the transition from Ashikaga
Shugo to Sengoku daimyo, if the shugo family survived,
usually in centralized in one location and lost it's
land elsewhere. Takeda centralized in Kai, Imagawa in
Suruga, etc. The Shiba died. Other shugo daimyo like
the Shimazu held contiguous holdings (Satsuma, Osumi,
part of Hyuga) so it was fairly easy to hold onto
their territory and make the transition. Of course,
they became Ashikaga Shugo for the same reason
Hideyoshi and Ieyasu later confirmed them in their
holdings--it would have been harder to uproot them
than to just let them stay, since the Shimazu had
ruled the area since, oh, about the time of Jimmu
Tenno, it seems.



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--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> Thanx for giving me some info.I just wanted to know
> if it was real.
>
> Edy
>

Sorry if that was too much--the short version is "no".



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Actually, there was a Takeda clan of a different branch than the Kai
Takeda there into the 16th century. Mori Motonari won an impressive
victory over them, one of his earliest victories. They seem to have
fallen off the map after that:

"Motonari was born Shojumaru, the second son of Môri Hiromoto, a
daimyo who struggled against the local Takeda clan (not to be
confused with the Kai branch of that family) and the encroaching
Oûchi. In 1499, Hiromoto found himself in the path of a looming
Amako invasion from Izumo, and allied with Oûchi. At the time, Oûchi
Yoshioki was becoming involved in the gunboat politics of Kyoto and
while he was away, the Amako grew stronger. In 1506 Hiromoto died,
and was succeded by his eldest son, Okimoto, who ended up assisting
Yoshioki in Kyoto for a short period. It happened that he died in
1516, and Motonari was named to act as guardian to the late lord's
young son, Komatsumaru. Komatsumaru in turn was to die in 1523, after
which Motonari became the official head of he clan. Evidently,
Môri's predecessors had died under unclear circumstances, for there
is a legend that it was Motonari himself who dispatched them. At any
rate, Motonari did not inherit a particularly enviable position. The
most powerful daimyo in Aki, Takeda Motoshige, took advantage of
Okimoto's death to make a play for Môri land, and in Izumo the Amako
began to rattle their sabers. Luckily for the Môri, however, their
young lord quickly proved himself a man of action. Takeda had set out
to take Koriyama Castle (the Môri's chief bastion since the early
14th Century) but found his troops intercepted and routed by the
numerically inferior Môri clan. This victory carried a certain
prestige value for Motonari, but was quickly over-shadowed by greater
events."


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> You're playing too much Shogun: Total War.
>
> The Takeda were a Shugo family under the Ashikaga
> Shogunate. At one time, they held appointments in Aki,
> but it was well before the Mori came to prominence.......

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Actually, there was a Takeda clan of a different
> branch than the Kai
> Takeda there into the 16th century. Mori Motonari
> won an impressive
> victory over them, one of his earliest victories.
> They seem to have
> fallen off the map after that:

I stand corrected. Or sit, rather.



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Hi

I agree with Nate

the sad fact about Ninja is they still havent been
researched enough in the english language for any one
to fully inderstand there history, Each school was
very diverse from all of the others, so no one
diffitive description can be aded to all of them

an example being one ryu form Iga would be very
different from anothe ryu just down the street in iga.

also the movie industry has further taken the fact
away making them more mythical than they were 20 years
ago.

Paul


--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:


---------------------------------

--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> Thanx for giving me some info.I just wanted to know
> if it was real.
>
> Edy
>

Sorry if that was too much--the short version is "no".



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Gakken's Rekishi Gunzo series has put out a book called 'Ninja and
Ninjutsu', and although I have no interest in buying it, I have to
assume based on the other books in the series that it either contains
solid history, or is very clear about what is known and what is fact
and what is not.



--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Richardson Paul
wrote:

> Hi
>
> I agree with Nate
>
> the sad fact about Ninja is they still havent been
> researched enough in the english language for any one
> to fully inderstand there history, Each school was
> very diverse from all of the others, so no one
> diffitive description can be aded to all of them
>
> an example being one ryu form Iga would be very
> different from anothe ryu just down the street in iga.
>
> also the movie industry has further taken the fact
> away making them more mythical than they were 20 years
> ago.
>
> Paul

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Gakken's Rekishi Gunzo series has put out a book
> called 'Ninja and
> Ninjutsu', and although I have no interest in buying
> it, I have to
> assume based on the other books in the series that
> it either contains
> solid history, or is very clear about what is known
> and what is fact
> and what is not.

I'll have to check it out, as soon as I get through my
Mitsuhide kick. No matter what, it'd be better than
anything in English...



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HI

is it this book
http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10640

If so I have it and it is very nice. A good factual
historical book dealing with many of the better known
names of real ninja.#

It would be nice if one of these books was finaly
translated into english it may help dispel a lot of
the crapy myth.

paul


--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:



---------------------------------

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Gakken's Rekishi Gunzo series has put out a book
> called 'Ninja and
> Ninjutsu', and although I have no interest in buying
> it, I have to
> assume based on the other books in the series that
> it either contains
> solid history, or is very clear about what is known
> and what is fact
> and what is not.

I'll have to check it out, as soon as I get through my
Mitsuhide kick. No matter what, it'd be better than
anything in English...



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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> I'll have to check it out, as soon as I get through my
> Mitsuhide kick. No matter what, it'd be better than
> anything in English...

Check out the "(so-and-so) no subete" books - They are books
dedicated to single Samurai. The library near me has のすべて
books
on Shingen, Kenshin, Ieyasu, Motonari, Otomo Sorin, Ishida Mitsunari,
Oda Nobunaga, and Hosokawa Fujitaka. I am sure they must have Akechi
Mitsuhide out there, and they are all over 200 pages, they seem to be
pretty solid bios.

Where can I find on the Internet a book on Shingen that I can buy????Cuz I'm in Romania so japanese history is very poor here.

Edy


Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...> wrote:--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> I'll have to check it out, as soon as I get through my
> Mitsuhide kick. No matter what, it'd be better than
> anything in English...

Check out the "(so-and-so) no subete" books - They are books
dedicated to single Samurai. The library near me has ��������
books
on Shingen, Kenshin, Ieyasu, Motonari, Otomo Sorin, Ishida Mitsunari,
Oda Nobunaga, and Hosokawa Fujitaka. I am sure they must have Akechi
Mitsuhide out there, and they are all over 200 pages, they seem to be
pretty solid bios.



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OOOOOOO.....I couldn't believe what I was reading.I'm completely amazed!!!!I never knew the Takeda clan had a separate branch.Incredible!!!Thanx very much!!!!I'm starting to make a history of the Takeda clan so that's why I'm asking all this.

Edy

P.S.:What's MUTSU NO KAMI????(Sengoku title)

Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...> wrote:
Actually, there was a Takeda clan of a different branch than the Kai
Takeda there into the 16th century. Mori Motonari won an impressive
victory over them, one of his earliest victories. They seem to have
fallen off the map after that:

"Motonari was born Shojumaru, the second son of M�ri Hiromoto, a
daimyo who struggled against the local Takeda clan (not to be
confused with the Kai branch of that family) and the encroaching
O�chi. In 1499, Hiromoto found himself in the path of a looming
Amako invasion from Izumo, and allied with O�chi. At the time, O�chi
Yoshioki was becoming involved in the gunboat politics of Kyoto and
while he was away, the Amako grew stronger. In 1506 Hiromoto died,
and was succeded by his eldest son, Okimoto, who ended up assisting
Yoshioki in Kyoto for a short period. It happened that he died in
1516, and Motonari was named to act as guardian to the late lord's
young son, Komatsumaru. Komatsumaru in turn was to die in 1523, after
which Motonari became the official head of he clan. Evidently,
M�ri's predecessors had died under unclear circumstances, for there
is a legend that it was Motonari himself who dispatched them. At any
rate, Motonari did not inherit a particularly enviable position. The
most powerful daimyo in Aki, Takeda Motoshige, took advantage of
Okimoto's death to make a play for M�ri land, and in Izumo the Amako
began to rattle their sabers. Luckily for the M�ri, however, their
young lord quickly proved himself a man of action. Takeda had set out
to take Koriyama Castle (the M�ri's chief bastion since the early
14th Century) but found his troops intercepted and routed by the
numerically inferior M�ri clan. This victory carried a certain
prestige value for Motonari, but was quickly over-shadowed by greater
events."


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> You're playing too much Shogun: Total War.
>
> The Takeda were a Shugo family under the Ashikaga
> Shogunate. At one time, they held appointments in Aki,
> but it was well before the Mori came to prominence.......

---
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Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


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--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> Where can I find on the Internet a book on Shingen
> that I can buy????Cuz I'm in Romania so japanese
> history is very poor here.
>
> Edy

Do you have access to online booksellers? Is there an
Amazon that will ship to Romania? That may be your
best option.



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Sure,I have acces to online bookstores.And I think Amazon ships to Romania.(it says on amazon.com that books ship internationally.)The problem is,can someone tell me if there is a book about Shingen,and if there is where I can find it on the net(cuz amazon.com may not have it).

Edy


Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> Where can I find on the Internet a book on Shingen
> that I can buy????Cuz I'm in Romania so japanese
> history is very poor here.
>
> Edy

Do you have access to online booksellers? Is there an
Amazon that will ship to Romania? That may be your
best option.



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Eddy



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