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Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

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#4948 [2004-07-31 21:59:36]

Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by kitsuno

When Hojo Soun invaded Izu in 1493, was it at the behest of
Ogigayatsu-Uesugi Sadamasa, who was fighting Ashikaga Chachamaru
there at the time, or did he just see a chance to take Izu, and did
it on his own?

[Next #4949]

#4949 [2004-07-31 22:59:34]

Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by kitsuno

Just FYI - I am currently expanding the biography of Hojo Soun:

http://www.samurai-archives.com/soun.html

and just want to be sure that he went into Izu in on his own, seizing
a chance, which seems most likely, rather than being requested by
ogigayatsu-uesugi to assist in the war against chachamaru.

[Previous #4948] [Next #4977]

#4977 [2004-08-01 20:25:45]

Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by kitsuno

Anyone have any English sources for the below invasion of Izu? I
only have one Japanese source which isn't very clear, and no english
sources available to me.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:
> When Hojo Soun invaded Izu in 1493, was it at the behest of
> Ogigayatsu-Uesugi Sadamasa, who was fighting Ashikaga Chachamaru
> there at the time, or did he just see a chance to take Izu, and did
> it on his own?

[Previous #4949] [Next #4979]

#4979 [2004-08-02 00:13:35]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by ltdomer98

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Anyone have any English sources for the below
> invasion of Izu? I
> only have one Japanese source which isn't very
> clear, and no english
> sources available to me.

7 pages of hits on Yahoo (English), but 50% of them
were about the anime "Ranma 1/2", which apparently has
one character named Soun and one named Hojo. Who knew?

The other range from, well, SAMURAI-ARCHIVES.COM (I
was really tempted to post THAT for you, he he) to
some pages claiming Hojo Soun was a model samurai and
a textbook practitioner of Bushido (this from the same
site that COMPLETELY butchers the Chushingura
story--did you know the 47 ronin killed the Shogun?
It's true--I saw it on the web). One excerpt I found
follows:

" 1507-51

A typical Sengoku daimyo, who rose by his wits

Soun founded the 'later' Hojo. This clan is to be
distinguished from the Hojo of the Kamukura Period.
His original name was Ise Shinkur�, but he took the
tonsure and assumed a monk's name, Soun. He was
probably born into the Ise family of Kyoto, although
this is not certain and details are unclear. In the
Sengoku Period there were many who rose to prominence
from humble beginnings, and so whose early life is not
recorded. Skill in war assured such men a place among
the 'upstart' daimyo class.
Soun won the trust of the Imagawa when he interceded
in their internal familial disputes. He was given
charge of Kokokuji Castle, which had a strategic
location guarding the Kanto. In 1491, he built
Nirayama Castle to reside in. Soun gained control of
Izu, and took Odawara Castle in Sagami, thus mounting
the first step in the unification of the Kanto. He
organised the development of towns around his castles,
conducted land surveys, and laying the foundations of
long-lasting rule.
In 1518, control of his house was usurped by Hojo
Ujitsuna. Soun died the following year at Nirayama
aged 88. He was regarded as a calm and honest man who
would rather govern in peace than attack, and he is
said to have been love by his people. He rose from
being a nameless wanderer to being the master of the
entire states of Izu and Sagami through his wits, and
his efforts ensured Hojo rule for five generations and
over a century. He was also a man of great physical
beauty, without which none of this might have been
possible."

http://www.sengoku-expo.net/text/person/E/172.html

I wasn't aware that Soun's son, Ujitsuna, "usurped"
power. Takeda Shingen, yeah, he usurped power from his
father. My recollection is that Soun retired while he
could "mentor" his son, and that became a practice in
the Go-Hojo family.

I'm next going to hit Japanese Google, but I think you
may be out of luck when YOUR website is the best
source on the web in English--fabulous accomplishment,
but it's not going to help YOUR knowledge that much!




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#4980 [2004-08-02 01:54:44]

Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by kitsuno

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:
>
> --- Kitsuno
> wrote:
>
> > Anyone have any English sources for the below
> > invasion of Izu? I
> > only have one Japanese source which isn't very
> > clear, and no english
> > sources available to me.
>
> 7 pages of hits on Yahoo (English), but 50% of them
> were about the anime "Ranma 1/2", which apparently has
> one character named Soun and one named Hojo. Who knew?
>
> The other range from, well, SAMURAI-ARCHIVES.COM (I
> was really tempted to post THAT for you, he he) to
> some pages claiming Hojo Soun was a model samurai and
> a textbook practitioner of Bushido (this from the same
> site that COMPLETELY butchers the Chushingura
> story--did you know the 47 ronin killed the Shogun?
> It's true--I saw it on the web). One excerpt I found
> follows:

Good, but it fails to say anything other than "he took Izu" :P
Thanks for the hand, though. I dont know what I was thinking when I
mailed most of my books back home rather than to Japan.....

[Previous #4979] [Next #4981]

#4981 [2004-08-02 02:03:43]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by ltdomer98

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Good, but it fails to say anything other than "he
> took Izu" :P
> Thanks for the hand, though. I dont know what I was
> thinking when I
> mailed most of my books back home rather than to
> Japan.....

My point was really that "YOU AIN'T GONNA FIND IT IN
ENGLISH!"

Sorry about your books being in the US, but...

YOU ARE IN JAPAN! Don't they have a Tsutaya or
something near you?




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#4996 [2004-08-02 20:01:00]

Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by kitsuno

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> Sorry about your books being in the US, but...
>
> YOU ARE IN JAPAN! Don't they have a Tsutaya or
> something near you?


Books cost money, and I finally just got my visa yesterday, so now I
have to start looking for a job *sigh*.

[Previous #4981] [Next #4998]

#4998 [2004-08-02 20:53:46]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by ltdomer98

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:
>
> Books cost money, and I finally just got my visa
> yesterday, so now I
> have to start looking for a job *sigh*.

Life sucks, doesn't it?




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#5125 [2004-08-09 23:36:53]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by soshuju

On Aug 1, 2004, at 8:25 PM, Kitsuno wrote:

> Anyone have any English sources for the below invasion of Izu?  I
> only have one Japanese source which isn't very clear, and no english
> sources available to me.
>
>
>

From "100 Selected Japanese Generals" edited by Wakamori Taro pg. 136

The Izu campaign began long before the death of Masatomo. After the
death of Imagawa Yoshitada (1480) there ensued a power struggle between
Ise Nagauji (Hojo Soun) , Nagauji's son, and Nagauji's cousin, when
this spilled over into Izu, Horikoshi Gosho Ashikaga Masatomo called in
the Ogigayatsu and Uesugi (really two branches of the Uesugi). Nagauji
sent them packing and thru his influence placed Imagawa's son Ryuomaru
at the head of the family and he became his regent and lord of 12
counties. Nagauji desiring to pursue his ambitions upon the Kanto,
struck into Izu (1493)to punish Chachamaru for assasinating his
father(1491), which proved the perfect excuse for his actions.

A very free translation BTW, but it is clear Wakamori at least saw it
as pure ambition on Soun's part and the campaign to punish Chachamaru
was a thin veil adopted to give legitimacy to his move...
-t

[Previous #4998] [Next #5126]

#5126 [2004-08-10 00:57:07]

Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by kitsuno

Thanks! I figured with 900+ people on the list, at least ONE person
might come up with something. It makes sense that Soun just went in
on his own, that was what I suspected. That leads into the second
part of my question - I have seen it said that Chachamaru assasinated
his father, and also that his father just 'died'. Anyone know what
the common theory is?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Tom Helm wrote:

>
> A very free translation BTW, but it is clear Wakamori at
least saw it
> as pure ambition on Soun's part and the campaign to punish
Chachamaru
> was a thin veil adopted to give legitimacy to his move...
> -t

[Previous #5125] [Next #5135]

#5135 [2004-08-10 16:33:18]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by ltdomer98

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Thanks! I figured with 900+ people on the list, at
> least ONE person
> might come up with something. It makes sense that
> Soun just went in
> on his own, that was what I suspected. That leads
> into the second
> part of my question - I have seen it said that
> Chachamaru assasinated
> his father, and also that his father just 'died'.
> Anyone know what
> the common theory is?

Everything I found while trying to find an answer for
you (didn't find anything beyond the normal, unlike
Tom :( ), said that Chachamaru killed his father.
Sansom says the same.



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#5143 [2004-08-11 02:16:56]

Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by kitsuno

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> Everything I found while trying to find an answer for
> you (didn't find anything beyond the normal, unlike
> Tom :( ), said that Chachamaru killed his father.
> Sansom says the same.

That's odd because a book I found at the library today "Sengoku
Bushou Retsuden #3" Printed in 1989, specifically says that Masatomo
died of illness in 1491 (Quite a concept, get a library card in
Japan, and you have free reign over the 1,000-odd book on the
Sengoku - I should have thought of that one earlier). The two that I
currently own (the one previously cited and one I picked up today but
dont have with me) basically say something to the effect of "after
the death of Masatomo in 1491, Chachamaru killed his younger half-
brother and his (the younger half brother's) mother.

On the other hand, Japanese internet sources I have seen in the past
made it look like he was killed by Chachamaru.

[Previous #5135] [Next #5144]

#5144 [2004-08-11 02:30:32]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by ltdomer98

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

>(Quite a concept, get a
> library card in
> Japan, and you have free reign over the 1,000-odd
> book on the
> Sengoku - I should have thought of that one
> earlier).

Haven't tried it yet, my video rental experiences
scared me. Since I'm here with the military, I don't
get a visa or a gaijin ID card. Not sure if I can get
the library card with just my passport, but one of
these days I'll make it there, just to look if nothing
else.
>
> On the other hand, Japanese internet sources I have
> seen in the past
> made it look like he was killed by Chachamaru.


This is what I was looking at.



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#5145 [2004-08-11 02:35:05]

Re: Hojo Soun's 1493 Izu invasion

by kitsuno

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> >(Quite a concept, get a
> > library card in
> > Japan, and you have free reign over the 1,000-odd
> > book on the
> > Sengoku - I should have thought of that one
> > earlier).
>
> Haven't tried it yet, my video rental experiences
> scared me. Since I'm here with the military, I don't
> get a visa or a gaijin ID card. Not sure if I can get
> the library card with just my passport, but one of
> these days I'll make it there, just to look if nothing
> else.

I didnt have to show any ID at all. Just said I was living in the
town and wanted a card, and they gave me one. Either a case of small-
town kindness, or a taste of small town terror having to ask anything
of a Gaijin in JAPANESE :O

[Previous #5144] [Next #5148]

#5148 [2004-08-11 06:08:01]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Library access

by soshuju

Nate-
Some official mail (water bill or some such) addressed to you should
be enough ID for a Library card. You should visit the Tokyo National
Library while you are there, talk about book collections...
-t

[Previous #5145] [Next #5152]

#5152 [2004-08-11 08:52:08]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Library access

by ltdomer98

--- Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:

> Nate-
> Some official mail (water bill or some such)
> addressed to you should
> be enough ID for a Library card. You should visit
> the Tokyo National
> Library while you are there, talk about book
> collections...
> -t

Ah, okay, cool. Of course, my name is spelled wrong on
my cellphone bill....

hmm.






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#5157 [2004-08-11 19:48:24]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Library access

by Michael Peters

Nate,

For the National library you don't need a card just ID(no books leave the
building). The computer filing system is ..............unpleasant. The card
catalog is rather strange as well. '81 on is all katakana, roughly '45-'81
is katakana for foreign books hiragana for japanese, '00-'45 is dewy decimal
system (I think), before 00 is just strange.
Lots of well lit pleasant reading rooms though.

M.J.Peters

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#5158 [2004-08-11 20:26:26]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Library access

by ltdomer98

--- Michael Peters <shdwstel@...> wrote:

>
> Nate,
>
> For the National library you don't need a card
> just ID(no books leave the
> building). The computer filing system is
> ..............unpleasant. The card
> catalog is rather strange as well. '81 on is all
> katakana, roughly '45-'81
> is katakana for foreign books hiragana for japanese,
> '00-'45 is dewy decimal
> system (I think), before 00 is just strange.
> Lots of well lit pleasant reading rooms though.
>
> M.J.Peters

MJ--

Thanks. The National Library is the one over by the
Kokkaigijido, correct?

I'll be heading to the Harajuku library probably this
weekend, to try to get the card. We'll see how it
goes.

Nate



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