Musashi - translations, traditions and bunbu-ichi

Someone recently mentioned "bad Cleary translations," and it's got me to
wondering about something. I've got three translations of _Book of Five
Rings_ on my shelves, as the Harris translation I found in the '70s only
whetted my appetite for a better understanding. (I come from a family of
linguists, and I always prefer to compare translations on any work that
really matters to me - _Beowulf_, the _Tao Te Ching_, the _Mabinogi_, and
Musashi, for instance - in order to penetrate a little further into a given
source work than one translator can ever achieve.) If I were ever to study
Japanese, it would mostly be so I could read Musashi in the original.
Now Cleary's been translating some works I value - Soho's _Unfettered Mind_,
the Yagyu _Heiho Kaden Sho_ (although he leaves out the incredibly valuable
illustrations, which is... weird), and - of course - _Five Rings_. So I'd
be very grateful if anyone could let me know if there's a problem with his
translations that I ought to know about. This one seems to me to be quite a
bit like Harris's, a little clearer on some points and a little less so on
others.
I'd also be grateful if anyone can tell me of a literal,
character-by-character translation of Musashi's work. The one I have of the
_Tao Te Ching_ in that style is by far the most illuminating I've seen, as
it makes sense of all the variations one finds in the other translations.
(One English word beneath this character, seven words beneath the next - it
captures the nuances in a way that makes a good deal of sense, and helps me
to understand the logic patterns in the parent language.)
For that matter, are there any books available of his artwork? I suspect
that Inagaki uses one of his statues in the opening credits of "Duel at
Ganryu Island," but I'm not sure. And the pictures in Harris's translation,
of course, are only black-and-white. If he had a serious body of artwork,
I'd be very interested to get a closer look at it.

Now Harris gives a capsule biography of Musashi which is (I believe) about
all we really know about him. Yet Yoshikawa's melodrama of his life (and
the Inagaki film adaptation), expand on that to so vast a degree that I
wonder to what extent they represent the novelist's fancy, and to what
extent they represent legitimate folk tradition. For example, I understand
that the tale of his meeting with the jo stylist - whose name escapes me at
the moment - is actual tradition: but is it history? And am I even correct
in my understanding that it's actual tradition?
This list is the first place I've come across a group of people sufficiently
informed that I thought I might find some answers I could trust on the
subject. Thank you all for your attention.
Gereg

--- Silk Road School <silk.road.school@...>
wrote:

> Someone recently mentioned "bad Cleary
> translations," and it's got me to
> wondering about something.

That was me.

So I'd

> be very grateful if anyone could let me know if
> there's a problem with his
> translations that I ought to know about.

Personal preference, possibly. He's got an agenda, as
does everyone. His Sun Zi Ping Fa ("Art of War") is
HORRIBLE, in my opinion. He attempts to take out all
sense that it's a military strategy guide, and make it
into some pithy philosophical gobbledygook. Yes, it
reflects the taoist and confucian philosophy of the
time Sun Zi wrote, but it's a book of strategy on how
to defeat an enemy, not a morality play. His
translation really turned me off--his actual
translations may be okay (the word for word
translation), but when he "explains" the text, it
comes out as philosphical hogwash.

Haven't gone through his "Japanese Art of War", etc.,
because after reading his Sun Zi I'm simply not
interested. It seems he's less concerned with any art
of war, more concerned with contemplating his navel
and becoming one with the Tao. I've got no problem
with philosophers, but I do have a problem with
overinjecting philosophy where it isn't.

The one I have of the

> _Tao Te Ching_ in that style is by far the most
> illuminating I've seen, as
> it makes sense of all the variations one finds in
> the other translations.
> (One English word beneath this character, seven
> words beneath the next - it
> captures the nuances in a way that makes a good deal
> of sense, and helps me
> to understand the logic patterns in the parent
> language.)

Which translation is that? I think I've seen it, and
you're right, you catch a lot more that way.

I can't help you too much with your Musashi
questions--I'm not a Musashi officianado at all. But
someone here will be able to aid, I'm sure.

Nate



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Like Nate, I'm not exactly a Musashi buff, but just in the spirit of
having a fun conversation allow me to make some comments.

>I've got three translations of _Book of Five
> Rings_ on my shelves

I only have two; the Clearly one (which I just now see that I have
two copies on my bookshelf. How could that be?); and one from the
original Japanese into modern Japanese; translated by Kamiko Tadashi
神子侃.

>I always prefer to compare translations on any work that
> really matters to me

I love doing this myself.

> be very grateful if anyone could let me know if there's a problem

with his

> translations that I ought to know about. This one seems to me to

be quite a

> bit like Harris's, a little clearer on some points and a little

less so on others.

I have to say that I think it would be very painful to try and render
these writings into English that maintains the same style and nuance.
I guess that's the job of a person who takes it upon themselves to
translate literature - but it must be a hell of a task. Personally I
don't think I've ever found (not that I was looking) any errors in
Cleary - but it just doesn't quite have the same oomph as the
original.

> I'd also be grateful if anyone can tell me of a literal,
> character-by-character translation of Musashi's work.

I know what kind of thing you are referring to here, but I don't
think it would work for Japanese --> English. I guess that it works
for Chinese because the grammer structures are apparently quite
similar. But because of the differences in grammar between Japanese
and English you really couldn't render a character for character
literal translation; or rather, I would say that doing so wouldn't
provide any help to more deeply understanding the original.

> Now Harris gives a capsule biography of Musashi which is (I

believe) about

> all we really know about him. Yet Yoshikawa's melodrama of his

life (and

> the Inagaki film adaptation), expand on that to so vast a degree

that I

> wonder to what extent they represent the novelist's fancy, and to

what

> extent they represent legitimate folk tradition.

This I think is almost impossible to define with precision. By now
Yoshikawa's Musashi has itself become part of folk tradition. Again
I'm no expert, but it's my understanding that Musashi's actual life
is essentially a mystery - even his birthplace is the source of much
debate. I am of the impression that even the few events which are
thought to be 'known' (such as his early duel with Arita) are
impossible to really prove one way or the other.

In no particular relationshp to anything above, allow me to mention
that last fall I visited a town called "Miyamoto Musashi-no-Mura"
which is one of the purported birthplaces of Musashi. This one is in
Okayama Prefecture and is in my esteemed opinion :) the place with
the best claim. It was a lot of fun to get off of the train
at "Miyamoto Musashi Station" and walk around. One highlight of the
trip for me was visiting the supposed grave of Musashi. One other was
seeing the Hirao family home; this is the family that Musashi's elder
sister O-gin was married to. Amazingly, the home is still there and
the Hirao family still live there. It's little experiences and
episodes like that, that for whatever reason constantly re-kindle my
interest in Japanese history.

On Jul 23, 2004, at 12:28 PM, Silk Road School wrote:

> Someone recently mentioned "bad Cleary translations," and it's got me
> to
> wondering about something. 

Not a one to one translation but the International Budo University put
out an excellent little tract on Musashi and the problems with some of
the translations about four years ago. An excellent read and resource
if you can find it.

> If he had a serious body of artwork,
> I'd be very interested to get a closer look at it.

There were exhibitions of his art and swords and writings.( small
municipal museums) I have seen the catalogs in old book shops, but
never bought one. Being from thirty years or so ago, the photos were
all black and white(and there weren't many swords).

>
> Now Harris gives a capsule biography of Musashi which is (I believe)
> about
> all we really know about him.  Yet Yoshikawa's melodrama of his life
> (and
> the Inagaki film adaptation), expand on that to so vast a degree that
> I
> wonder to what extent they represent the novelist's fancy, and to what
> extent they represent legitimate folk tradition.  For example, I
> understand
> that the tale of his meeting with the jo stylist - whose name escapes
> me at
> the moment - is actual tradition:  but is it history?  And am I even
> correct
> in my understanding that it's actual tradition?
> This list is the first place I've come across a group of people
> sufficiently
> informed that I thought I might find some answers I could trust on the
> subject.  Thank you all for your attention.
> ����� Gereg

my understanding is that nearly everything we know about him comes
from the little he reveals in his writing and from the biography
written well after his death by his students. It has to be considered
carefully as it would have been written to promote the tradition he
founded. However I would be very much interested in a translation of
this, which is the seed of the Yoshikawa work, and we shall have to
hope some lucky scholar is working on that as we speak...
-t