Time to throw things at the new guy!

Greetings Gents,

As I mentioned in a previous email I have been reading Stephen
Turnbull's "Samurai a Military History."

I have a question concerning the Battle of Uji, 20 June 1180.

1) How long was the Uji bridge (width and length), or the width of
the Ujigawa at this location?

2) The map on page 26 is not very detailed. Where is the Byodo-in, in
relation to the Uji bridge and the box representing Nara shown on the
map? Does anybody have a more detailed map of the region with the
places marked and the topography?

3) Turnbull states that the Minamoto forces at the battle numbered
300. Does anybody know the composition of these forces? He does
mention that some were monks. How many?

4) Turnball states that at the time of this battle the Taira were
raising an army of 20,000. How many fought at the Battle of Uji and
what was the composition of those troops?

While I like the book and his writing style I do think that it lacks
the detail of a true military study. Any help with the above
questions would be greatly appreciated.

Now for a couple of technical questions:

1) What was the average range for archers of the time? Turnbull
states 350 yards. Then in the chapter covering the Mongol invasions
he states that due to the period of relative peace between the Mongol
invasions and the Gempei War that this range had degraded and that
archers from Kyushu did not have the skill or range than archers from
the east.

Can anybody shed any light on this?

Well enough for now. Back to the book.

Cheers
Bill M.
http://www.russojapanesewar.com

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:02:07 -0000, Bill M.さん wrote in message <cb4mvf+vdo3@...>

>Greetings Gents,

Hello!

>I have a question concerning the Battle of Uji, 20 June 1180.

Well, this is way before my era of interest. I'm sure you'll get
better answers, but allow me to comment on one or two of your
questions.

>1) How long was the Uji bridge (width and length), or the width of
>the Ujigawa at this location?

I don't know this. I do know that today the bridge is 155 meters
long.

>2) The map on page 26 is not very detailed. Where is the Byodo-in, in
>relation to the Uji bridge and the box representing Nara shown on the
>map? Does anybody have a more detailed map of the region with the
>places marked and the topography?

I don't have the book so I can't refer to what you are seeing. In
any event, if you can read Japanese this is a very servicable map:
http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/uji-web/map.html

If you can't read Japanese, then the Byoudou-in is in the lower-left
hand corner of C4 (it's marked with a red dot that is also a
hyperlink). The bridge (Uji Bashi) is right in the middle of C3.

>3) Turnbull states that the Minamoto forces at the battle numbered
>300. Does anybody know the composition of these forces? He does
>mention that some were monks. How many?

According to the Tale of Heike, it was 1000. This is probably
inflated just like most old histories are. It might have been closer
to 50 samurai. But I'll leave the rest to the experts. :)


--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Thanks Jay!

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Oyakata oyakata@...
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:58:46 -0400
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Time to throw things at the new guy!


On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:02:07 -0000, Bill M.$B$5$s(B wrote in message
<cb4mvf+vdo3@...>

>Greetings Gents,

Hello!

>I have a question concerning the Battle of Uji, 20 June 1180.

Well, this is way before my era of interest. I'm sure you'll get
better answers, but allow me to comment on one or two of your
questions.

>1) How long was the Uji bridge (width and length), or the width of
>the Ujigawa at this location?

I don't know this. I do know that today the bridge is 155 meters
long.

>2) The map on page 26 is not very detailed. Where is the Byodo-in, in
>relation to the Uji bridge and the box representing Nara shown on the
>map? Does anybody have a more detailed map of the region with the
>places marked and the topography?

I don't have the book so I can't refer to what you are seeing. In
any event, if you can read Japanese this is a very servicable map:
http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/uji-web/map.html

If you can't read Japanese, then the Byoudou-in is in the lower-left
hand corner of C4 (it's marked with a red dot that is also a
hyperlink). The bridge (Uji Bashi) is right in the middle of C3.

>3) Turnbull states that the Minamoto forces at the battle numbered
>300. Does anybody know the composition of these forces? He does
>mention that some were monks. How many?

According to the Tale of Heike, it was 1000. This is probably
inflated just like most old histories are. It might have been closer
to 50 samurai. But I'll leave the rest to the experts. :)


--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...



---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---
Yahoo! Groups Links






--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:34:15 -0400, billm@...さん wrote in message <306780-220046121163415322@...>

>Thanks Jay!

This has piqued my interest so I've been reading about it.

http://park18.wakwak.com/~seppo/0303_otu._uji/ujikawa.htm

This is a pretty neat picture. It is taken from on top of the
modern Uji Bridge. You can get a sense of how wide the river is
today (although again I don't know how wide it was in 1180). The
Byou-dou-in is one of the buildings in the right of the picture.
Personally I can't figure out which of the buildings it is -- but it
gives you a sense of the closeness of the building to the bridge.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

> This has piqued my interest so I've been reading
> about it.
>
>

http://park18.wakwak.com/~seppo/0303_otu._uji/ujikawa.htm

>
> This is a pretty neat picture. It is taken from on
> top of the
> modern Uji Bridge. You can get a sense of how wide
> the river is
> today (although again I don't know how wide it was
> in 1180). The
> Byou-dou-in is one of the buildings in the right of
> the picture.
> Personally I can't figure out which of the buildings
> it is -- but it
> gives you a sense of the closeness of the building
> to the bridge.
>
> --
> Jay Kelly
> oyakata@...

Jay--

THe link didn't work for me, but if you look at the
back of a 10 yen coin, you'll see the Byodo-in. It's
got a central building, flanked by two wings--at the
end of the wings are raised "turret"-like rooftops.
The whole structure is on, for lack of a better term,
stilts--it's on the water. Been a decade since I was
there, so I don't remember if it's on the river or
near it on another body of water.

I'll try to hit that link again later.

Nate





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

On Jun 21, 2004, at 6:47 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> --- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:
>
> > This has piqued my interest so I've been reading
> > about it.
> >
> >
> http://park18.wakwak.com/~seppo/0303_otu._uji/ujikawa.htm
> >
> > This is a pretty neat picture. It is taken from on
> > top of the
> > modern Uji Bridge. You can get a sense of how wide
> > the river is
> > today (although again I don't know how wide it was
> > in 1180). The
> > Byou-dou-in is one of the buildings in the right of
> > the picture.
> > Personally I can't figure out which of the buildings
> > it is -- but it
> > gives you a sense of the closeness of the building
> > to the bridge.
> >
> > --
> > Jay Kelly
> > oyakata@...
>
>
> Jay--
>
> THe link didn't work for me, but if you look at the
> back of a 10 yen coin, you'll see the Byodo-in. It's
> got a central building, flanked by two wings--at the
> end of the wings are raised "turret"-like rooftops.
> The whole structure is on, for lack of a better term,
> stilts--it's on the water. Been a decade since I was
> there, so I don't remember if it's on the river or
> near it on another body of water.
>
> I'll try to hit that link again later.
>
> Nate

Byodo-in is actually on... a pond.
The river's not far, thou.

Hey, did you know we have a wonderful real-size replica of Byodo-in
here in Oahu?

Cepo

PS = See Nate? Time to spend some days in Kansai ;o)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/intro/trad/isan/byoudo_e.html

Ah, the wonders of Google. It's on the West Bank of
the Uji River.

Nate

--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

> --- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:
>
> > This has piqued my interest so I've been reading
> > about it.
> >
> >
>

http://park18.wakwak.com/~seppo/0303_otu._uji/ujikawa.htm

> >
> > This is a pretty neat picture. It is taken from on
> > top of the
> > modern Uji Bridge. You can get a sense of how wide
> > the river is
> > today (although again I don't know how wide it was
> > in 1180). The
> > Byou-dou-in is one of the buildings in the right
> of
> > the picture.
> > Personally I can't figure out which of the
> buildings
> > it is -- but it
> > gives you a sense of the closeness of the building
> > to the bridge.
> >
> > --
> > Jay Kelly
> > oyakata@...
>
>
> Jay--
>
> THe link didn't work for me, but if you look at the
> back of a 10 yen coin, you'll see the Byodo-in. It's
> got a central building, flanked by two wings--at the
> end of the wings are raised "turret"-like rooftops.
> The whole structure is on, for lack of a better
> term,
> stilts--it's on the water. Been a decade since I was
> there, so I don't remember if it's on the river or
> near it on another body of water.
>
> I'll try to hit that link again later.
>
> Nate
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

On Jun 21, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/intro/trad/isan/byoudo_e.html
>
> Ah, the wonders of Google. It's on the West Bank of
> the Uji River.
>
> Nate

Ok, checked a map. The complex actually "touches the river" (on the
West Bank), thou the temple itself is a bit detached from it. The water
in front of the temple is indeed a pond.

cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

>
> Byodo-in is actually on... a pond.
> The river's not far, thou.
>
> Hey, did you know we have a wonderful real-size
> replica of Byodo-in
> here in Oahu?
>
> Cepo
>
> PS = See Nate? Time to spend some days in Kansai ;o)

You know, the one in Oahu came up in my search.

And I spent a few days in Kyoto last week, then hit
Miyajima again...it was nice to get away. You don't
REALLY realize how stinking huge Tokyo is until a. you
get away for a while and b. you ride above it in a
helicopter, as I did earlier today. The cool thing
was, I saw my house!



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

> Ok, checked a map. The complex actually "touches the
> river" (on the
> West Bank), thou the temple itself is a bit detached
> from it. The water
> in front of the temple is indeed a pond.
>
> cepo

Ah, the fallacies of websites. So by "on" the river,
they mean "somewhat adjacent to, with sort of in the vicinity"....




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:47:51 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote in message <20040622044752.22320.qmail@...>

>Jay--
>
>THe link didn't work for me, but if you look at the
>back of a 10 yen coin, you'll see the Byodo-in. It's
>got a central building, flanked by two wings--at the
>end of the wings are raised "turret"-like rooftops.
>The whole structure is on, for lack of a better term,
>stilts--it's on the water. Been a decade since I was
>there, so I don't remember if it's on the river or
>near it on another body of water.

Nate,
Thanks - but I was probably less than clear about what I meant. I know
the building well. :) Unfortunately I can't make out _in the picture_
itself exactly which buidling it is; the caption says "on the right"
but there are a compound of building on the right, and the picture
is somewhat dark.

I tried the link again and it seems ok from here.
http://park18.wakwak.com/~seppo/0303_otu._uji/ujikawa.htm

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

>> Nate,
> Thanks - but I was probably less than clear about
> what I meant. I know
> the building well. :) Unfortunately I can't make out
> _in the picture_
> itself exactly which buidling it is; the caption
> says "on the right"
> but there are a compound of building on the right,
> and the picture
> is somewhat dark.

Jay--

Tried the link again, apparently I can get to it from
home, and not from work, where I was before. Now that
I SEE the picture, it makes more sense--how can you
make out ANYTHING on those buildings?

Nate



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Gents,

Thanks for all this. It helps to see what you are reading about! I don't
think that Turnbulls map was oriented correctly, north being to the top,
but I am not quite sure as I am in the office right now. Jay does the
initial map that you sent the link for tell you the orientation?
Unfortunately I can not read very many Japanese characters so I am not sure
if there is a compass designation on the map.

Cheers
Bill M.

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Oyakata oyakata@...
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 06:33:02 -0400
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Uji-kawa


On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:47:51 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetter$B$5$s(B wrote in
message <20040622044752.22320.qmail@...>

>Jay--
>
>THe link didn't work for me, but if you look at the
>back of a 10 yen coin, you'll see the Byodo-in. It's
>got a central building, flanked by two wings--at the
>end of the wings are raised "turret"-like rooftops.
>The whole structure is on, for lack of a better term,
>stilts--it's on the water. Been a decade since I was
>there, so I don't remember if it's on the river or
>near it on another body of water.

Nate,
Thanks - but I was probably less than clear about what I meant. I know
the building well. :) Unfortunately I can't make out _in the picture_
itself exactly which buidling it is; the caption says "on the right"
but there are a compound of building on the right, and the picture
is somewhat dark.

I tried the link again and it seems ok from here.
http://park18.wakwak.com/~seppo/0303_otu._uji/ujikawa.htm

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...



---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---
Yahoo! Groups Links






--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> You don't
> REALLY realize how stinking huge Tokyo is until a. you
> get away for a while and b. you ride above it in a
> helicopter, as I did earlier today.

Actually, it's long seemed to me that for the average Tokyo denizen, there's no
real grasp of size. Everything is accessed by trains -- many of them underground
-- and there's not much sense of personal distance. Tokyo seems like a crapload
of neighborhoods connected by subways and trains. :)

> The cool thing
> was, I saw my house!

Thou suckest. :)

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

>
> Actually, it's long seemed to me that for the
> average Tokyo denizen, there's no
> real grasp of size. Everything is accessed by trains
> -- many of them underground
> -- and there's not much sense of personal distance.
> Tokyo seems like a crapload
> of neighborhoods connected by subways and trains. :)

Trains do that, especially subways, because you don't
SEE where you are going. You go down a tube, travel,
and come out another one. It throws off all perception
of distance. When I actually started riding my bike to
work, it was amazing to see how close everything was.

> > The cool thing
> > was, I saw my house!
>
> Thou suckest. :)
>
> Tony

Perks of the job...sorry man.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

This temple is very beautiful.Lots of history in his back

Edy

----- Original Message -----
From: Cesare Polenghi
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Uji-kawa


On Jun 21, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/intro/trad/isan/byoudo_e.html
>
> Ah, the wonders of Google. It's on the West Bank of
> the Uji River.
>
> Nate

Ok, checked a map. The complex actually "touches the river" (on the
West Bank), thou the temple itself is a bit detached from it. The water
in front of the temple is indeed a pond.

cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:43:58 -0400, billm@...さん wrote in message <125060-220046222124358925@...>

>think that Turnbulls map was oriented correctly, north being to the top,
>but I am not quite sure as I am in the office right now. Jay does the
>initial map that you sent the link for tell you the orientation?
>Unfortunately I can not read very many Japanese characters so I am not sure
>if there is a compass designation on the map.

The map itself doesn't show the orientation, but I know from other
maps that it has north at the top.

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/uji-web/map.html

Since I'm not seeing what you're seeing it's hard for me to comment on
Turnbull's map. Do the two maps (Turnbull's and the above link)
basically match in orientation?

The Byou-dou-in is on the west bank of the Uji-kawa.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

On Jun 22, 2004, at 3:46 PM, Oyakata wrote:

>
> The Byou-dou-in is on the west bank of the Uji-kawa.
>
>

Dunno if it may help, however the Uji River runs almost exactly on a
45' axis, SE to NW. (later it bends to the SW, and merges with the
Kamo and the Kizu to form the Yodo in Osaka)
Thus, you can say that Byodo-in is on the W bank, but at the same time
it's on the S bank as well... Basically it's SW of the river that runs
SE to NW.
Hope I didn't confuse you any further...

cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:42:51 -1000, Cesare Polenghiさん wrote in message <050E3423-C4BF-11D8-95BC-000393962F98@...>

>On Jun 22, 2004, at 3:46 PM, Oyakata wrote:
>>
>> The Byou-dou-in is on the west bank of the Uji-kawa.
>>
>Dunno if it may help, however the Uji River runs almost exactly on a
>45' axis, SE to NW. (later it bends to the SW, and merges with the
>Kamo and the Kizu to form the Yodo in Osaka)
>Thus, you can say that Byodo-in is on the W bank, but at the same time
>it's on the S bank as well... Basically it's SW of the river that runs
>SE to NW.
>Hope I didn't confuse you any further...
>

It's probably just a question of nuance. Right at the Byou-dou-in,
the river is rather more "up and down".

Here is a more accurate map that I think illustrates this very well.
http://www.mapion.co.jp/c/f?el=135/48/36.877&scl=25000&size=954,768&uc=1&grp=MapionBB&nl=34/53/10.850



--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Jay,

Thanks to you and others for al your help! I will scan the map and put it in
the files section so that you and all who are interested may see it and
offer their opinions and advice. I know that this seems like an awful lot of
questions for such a small engagement but it is fast turning out that the
Gempei Wars are becoming my favorite subject of study. Since starting
Turnbull's book I have purchased a copy of "The Tale of the Heike" in two
volumes translated by Hiroshi Kitagawa and Bruce T. Tsuchida with a forward
by Edward Seidensticker published by the University of Tokyo Press and a
copy of "Yoshitsune" translated by Helen Craig McCullough published by
Stanford University Press under the auspices of the Tokyo University Press.
I read through "Yoshitsune" in one night! I could not put it down. No
greater tale of chivalrous valor and adventure has ever come out of any
other time period including the knights of the roundtable! I will start "The
Tale of the Heike" when I finish Turnbull so please be prepared to put up
with more questions as I try to fully learn about and understand this most
fascinating history.

Cheers
Bill M.
http://www.russojapanesewar.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Oyakata [mailto:oyakata@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:47 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Uji-kawa


On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:43:58 -0400, billm@...さん
wrote in message <125060-220046222124358925@...>

>think that Turnbulls map was oriented correctly, north being to the top,
>but I am not quite sure as I am in the office right now. Jay does the
>initial map that you sent the link for tell you the orientation?
>Unfortunately I can not read very many Japanese characters so I am not sure
>if there is a compass designation on the map.

The map itself doesn't show the orientation, but I know from other
maps that it has north at the top.

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/uji-web/map.html

Since I'm not seeing what you're seeing it's hard for me to comment on
Turnbull's map. Do the two maps (Turnbull's and the above link)
basically match in orientation?

The Byou-dou-in is on the west bank of the Uji-kawa.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...



---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---
Yahoo! Groups Links

Cesare,

Thank you for your help! This is a good bunch of people here.

Cheers
Bill M.
http://www.russojapanesewar.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Cesare Polenghi [mailto:cepo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:43 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Uji-kawa

On Jun 22, 2004, at 3:46 PM, Oyakata wrote:

>
> The Byou-dou-in is on the west bank of the Uji-kawa.
>
>
Dunno if it may help, however the Uji River runs almost exactly on a
45' axis, SE to NW. (later it bends to the SW, and merges with the
Kamo and the Kizu to form the Yodo in Osaka)
Thus, you can say that Byodo-in is on the W bank, but at the same time
it's on the S bank as well... Basically it's SW of the river that runs
SE to NW.
Hope I didn't confuse you any further...

cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---
Yahoo! Groups Links

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:18:52 -0400, Bill M.さん wrote in message <DFENLMBNEOGPCPADPLAACEFDCAAA.billm@...>

>Jay,
>
>Thanks to you and others for al your help! I will scan the map and put it in
>the files section so that you and all who are interested may see it and
>offer their opinions and advice. I know that this seems like an awful lot of

Cool - thanks.

>other time period including the knights of the roundtable! I will start "The
>Tale of the Heike" when I finish Turnbull so please be prepared to put up
>with more questions as I try to fully learn about and understand this most
>fascinating history.

That certainly is a fascinating subject. Unfortunately it's alot
earlier than my main interest (late Sengoku). I'm not sure how much
I can offer - although I'm always glad to just chat about stuff.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Jay,

I am kind of swamped today but will get the scan done tomorrow,
Friday and I will let you know when it is up.

Cheers
Bill M.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:18:52 -0400, Bill M.､ｵ､� wrote in message

> >Jay,
> >
> >Thanks to you and others for al your help! I will scan the map and
put it in
> >the files section so that you and all who are interested may see
it and
> >offer their opinions and advice. I know that this seems like an
awful lot of
>
> Cool - thanks.
>
> >other time period including the knights of the roundtable! I will
start "The
> >Tale of the Heike" when I finish Turnbull so please be prepared to
put up
> >with more questions as I try to fully learn about and understand
this most
> >fascinating history.
>
> That certainly is a fascinating subject. Unfortunately it's alot
> earlier than my main interest (late Sengoku). I'm not sure how much
> I can offer - although I'm always glad to just chat about stuff.
>
> --
> Jay Kelly
> oyakata@O...