Nobunaga as a villain

I've noticed this in the past but never paid much mind to it until I
was given a game called Samurai Warriors. In it, Oda is shown in
black/purplish armor, a red dracula-like cloak and a glowing purple
western style sword. This brought back some distant memories. I
remember seeing Nobunaga as a villain in a game from the mid 90s
called Sengoku..similar outfit.

My question is this: why is ALWAYS portrayed as some sort of unholy
monster in anime (stupid american otaku nerds) and video games?

Gabriel

On May 31, 2004, at 7:05 PM, Luis-Gabriel Leal wrote:

> I've noticed this in the past but never paid much mind to it until I
> was given a game called Samurai Warriors. In it, Oda is shown in
> black/purplish armor, a red dracula-like cloak and a glowing purple
> western style sword. This brought back some distant memories. I
> remember seeing Nobunaga as a villain in a game from the mid 90s
> called Sengoku..similar outfit.
>
> My question is this: why is ALWAYS portrayed as some sort of unholy
> monster in anime (stupid american otaku nerds) and video games?
>
> Gabriel

Because by modern standards (both Western and Japanese), he was a
villain.

I mean, you need a villain in a game, right?
Usually a guy who killed by the thousands will make a good one, I
reckon...

cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey.
I think I know why, Gabriel. In an interview with PrimaGames for the
PlayStation game Onimusha 2: Samurai's Destiny, executive producer Inafune
Keiji said that one reason he (Nobunaga) was portrayed as a villain was because,
in Japan (and I'm only paraphrasing his answer, not adding my own pitiful
"expertise"), Oda Nobunaga is seen as a hero, even though he was considered brutal
even for the time he lived. They made him the villain to show people this
sometimes-forgotten side of him. And I wouldn't knock these games too much,
everyone. It's what got ME interested in this time in Japan's history in the
FIRST place! :-) L8r

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Eponymous13@a... wrote:

> Hey.
> I think I know why, Gabriel. In an interview with

PrimaGames for the

> PlayStation game Onimusha 2: Samurai's Destiny, executive producer

Inafune

> Keiji said that one reason he (Nobunaga) was portrayed as a villain

was because,

> in Japan (and I'm only paraphrasing his answer, not adding my own

pitiful

> "expertise"), Oda Nobunaga is seen as a hero, even though he was

considered brutal

> even for the time he lived. They made him the villain to show

people this

> sometimes-forgotten side of him. And I wouldn't knock these games

too much,

> everyone. It's what got ME interested in this time in Japan's

history in the

> FIRST place! :-) L8r
>

This is the same case for me as well...I always had an interest in
the japanese, samurai especially. But this interest was bolstered 100
fold when I actually found my japanese family name in a video
game....being 'Nobanaga's Ambition'. A war general in one of the
western provinces had our family name..."masazumi". After seeing
this, my curiosity began to peak. However, having a young family,
full time job, and moving around the city....I can't find as much
time as I would like to satisfy my interest in the culture...past and
present.

Just thought I'd share this common point....have a great day everyone

> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i alwas figured it was because the samurai wernt christian so they *had* to be evil by some crazy western standard.

so thats my 2 cents





Tom Hatfield

"In all forms of stratagy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life, and to make your everyday stance your combat stance."

-Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings,

The Water Book

oneundeadlord@...








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well that explains alot then. It just seems so odd that someone who
had been successful in his endeavors for a united kingdom would be
portrayed as a half demon king with a flaming purple sword and
speaking in a voice that makes James Earl Jones seem like pee-wee
herman.

Gabriel

Tom Hatfield wrote:

> i alwas figured it was because the samurai wernt christian so they *had* to
> be evil by some crazy western standard.

So, then, they villify the powerful daimyo who had the closest ties to
Christianity -- including a Christian son -- and who was enamoured of European
exoticisim?

Right. :)

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

I must make be remembered that Oda Nobunaga attacked most buddhist temples,
and did several atrocities against his own people, with the money of the
jesuites...

And yes, Samurais was not christians.
as it was confirmed latter in Edo Jidai...

The one who brough real peace AND unification to Japan was Ieyassu Tokugawa

Just my two cents...

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
S�o Paulo - SP Brazil

>Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:58:59 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Tom Hatfield
>Subject: Re: Nobunaga as a villain
>
>i alwas figured it was because the samurai wernt christian so they *had* to
>be evil by some crazy western standard.
>
>so thats my 2 cents
>
>Tom Hatfield
>
>"In all forms of stratagy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in
>everyday life, and to make your everyday stance your combat stance."
>
>-Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings,
>
>The Water Book
>
>oneundeadlord@...

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On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 02:25:38 -0300, Medhal Mikit St�-ljon Oddhinssonさん wrote in message

>I must make be remembered that Oda Nobunaga attacked most buddhist temples,
>and did several atrocities against his own people, with the money of the
>jesuites...
>

This is a good illustration of the mindset that is behind the
"Nobunaga as villain" philosophy in the west. It's based on
modern/western sensibilities to reach the conclusion that "Nobunaga
was a villain". This philosophy really is not that popular
in Japan.

As several people have noted, including the original poster,
"Nobunaga as villain" is something you might see in computer or
video cames coming out of Japan. It also exists in some other
"pop" kinds of entertainment.

But in most Japanese sources, Nobunaga is not seen as a villain. His
more over-the-top things that in our day and age are quite shocking,
were even shocking when they happened. But the overall impression
is not Nobunaga as villain, but for the most part, Nobunaga as
heroic figure.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Someone had mentioned that Oda Nobunaga was the most Christian daimyo. Please review the daimyos of Hizen province, including Arima and Omura clans in the 16th Centure. It was the daimyo Omura who granted the Portugese Nagasaki port. And the ties with the Portugese in Nagasaki and Omura. There's even a St. Omura in the Catholic faith who is a canonized Saint.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rob wrote:

> Someone had mentioned that Oda Nobunaga was the most Christian daimyo. Please review the daimyos of Hizen province, including Arima and Omura clans in the 16th Centure. It was the daimyo Omura who granted the Portugese Nagasaki port. And the ties with the Portugese in Nagasaki and Omura. There's even a St. Omura in the Catholic faith who is a canonized Saint.

You misread my message (or I miswrote the intention). Nobunaga was the daimyo in
the greatest position to do good things for the Christians. Yes, there were
daimyo in Kyushu and elsewhere who converted, but they had little effect outside
their own domains. Nobunaga was quite different in his sphere of influence.

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

On Jun 4, 2004, at 1:54 PM, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

> Rob wrote:
>
> > Someone had mentioned that Oda Nobunaga was the most Christian
> daimyo. Please review the daimyos of Hizen province, including Arima
> and Omura clans in the 16th Centure. It was the daimyo Omura who
> granted the Portugese Nagasaki port. And the ties with the Portugese
> in Nagasaki and Omura. There's even a St. Omura in the Catholic faith
> who is a canonized Saint.
>
> You misread my message (or I miswrote the intention). Nobunaga was
> the daimyo in
> the greatest position to do good things for the Christians. Yes,
> there were
> daimyo in Kyushu and elsewhere who converted, but they had little
> effect outside
> their own domains. Nobunaga was quite different in his sphere of
> influence.
>
> Tony

I think Nobunaga was interested in Christianity mainly for two reasons:
1 - Guns. The Portuguese missionaries (and the merchants that arrived
with them) brought some, and promised more. I have even read somewhere
(but not sure, perhaps the experts of this list can confirm) that
Nobunaga wore a Portuguese armor, at times.
2 - Nobunaga hated organized Buddhism, not the religion or the
philosophy, but the "Buddhist posse" (the ikki). Christianity was thus
a convenient 'alternative.'
I really doubt Nobunaga was interested in the Christian ideals,
nonetheless he seemed to have an interest for things from the West,
especially if they could give him a political-ideological or martial
advantage.

cepo

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 19:58:18 -1000, Cesare Polenghiさん wrote in message <57EFA892-B6B5-11D8-A193-000393962F98@...>

>
>I think Nobunaga was interested in Christianity mainly for two reasons:

Very well said!

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

You must be kidding!!!
When you said
"But in most Japanese sources, Nobunaga is not seen as a villain."
You must had meant Japanese CHRISTIAN sources!!!

Oda Nobunaga still be an negative reference in Japan history even to
nowaddays.
It is not in videogames or in manga, and anime...
Some parents still tell nobunaga tales to scare ill behaved children at
Japan, and he is an very used character in some occult movies such as
Kujaku-Ou!

And HEROIC is the tales about those brave ninjas who exterminated the
bastard!

Nobunaga had the vicious addiction to do genocide against buddhist temples
and against vilages near those temples, and killed and maimed many just
because they dwelt near those temples, until he decided to mess with the
vilages inside the Iiga mountain... *a very big grim*...

The rest of the history, I let to the people who know what I am speak about,
to imagine. :-)

In fact, Oda Nobunaga was not too much different than the bastard of Adolf
Hitler himself.

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
S�o Paulo - SP

>Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:04:03 -0400
> From: Oyakata
>Subject: Re: Re: Nobunaga as a villain
>
>On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 02:25:38 -0300, Medhal Mikit St��-ljon Oddhinsson����
>wrote in message
>>I must make be remembered that Oda Nobunaga attacked most buddhist

temples,

>>and did several atrocities against his own people, with the money of the
>>jesuites...
>>
>This is a good illustration of the mindset that is behind the
>"Nobunaga as villain" philosophy in the west. It's based on
>modern/western sensibilities to reach the conclusion that "Nobunaga
>was a villain". This philosophy really is not that popular
>in Japan.
>
>As several people have noted, including the original poster,
>"Nobunaga as villain" is something you might see in computer or
>video cames coming out of Japan. It also exists in some other
>"pop" kinds of entertainment.
>
>But in most Japanese sources, Nobunaga is not seen as a villain. His
>more over-the-top things that in our day and age are quite shocking,
>were even shocking when they happened. But the overall impression
>is not Nobunaga as villain, but for the most part, Nobunaga as
>heroic figure.
>
>--
>Jay Kelly
>oyakata@...
>

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Everything else below aside, Nobunaga was not 'exterminated by
ninjas'.



--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Medhal Mikit Stór-ljon
Oddhinsson wrote:

> You must be kidding!!!
> When you said
> "But in most Japanese sources, Nobunaga is not seen as a villain."
> You must had meant Japanese CHRISTIAN sources!!!
>
> Oda Nobunaga still be an negative reference in Japan history even

to

> nowaddays.
> It is not in videogames or in manga, and anime...
> Some parents still tell nobunaga tales to scare ill behaved

children at

> Japan, and he is an very used character in some occult movies such

as

> Kujaku-Ou!
>
> And HEROIC is the tales about those brave ninjas who exterminated

the

> bastard!
>
> Nobunaga had the vicious addiction to do genocide against buddhist

temples

> and against vilages near those temples, and killed and maimed many

just

> because they dwelt near those temples, until he decided to mess

with the

> vilages inside the Iiga mountain... *a very big grim*...
>
> The rest of the history, I let to the people who know what I am

speak about,

> to imagine. :-)
>
> In fact, Oda Nobunaga was not too much different than the bastard

of Adolf

> Hitler himself.
>
> Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> São Paulo - SP
>
> >Message: 7
> > Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:04:03 -0400
> > From: Oyakata
> >Subject: Re: Re: Nobunaga as a villain
> >
> >On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 02:25:38 -0300, Medhal Mikit St…Ó-ljon

Oddhinsson､ｵ､�

> >wrote in message
> >>I must make be remembered that Oda Nobunaga attacked most

buddhist

> temples,
> >>and did several atrocities against his own people, with the money

of the

> >>jesuites...
> >>
> >This is a good illustration of the mindset that is behind the
> >"Nobunaga as villain" philosophy in the west. It's based on
> >modern/western sensibilities to reach the conclusion

that "Nobunaga

> >was a villain". This philosophy really is not that popular
> >in Japan.
> >
> >As several people have noted, including the original poster,
> >"Nobunaga as villain" is something you might see in computer or
> >video cames coming out of Japan. It also exists in some other
> >"pop" kinds of entertainment.
> >
> >But in most Japanese sources, Nobunaga is not seen as a villain.

His

> >more over-the-top things that in our day and age are quite

shocking,

> >were even shocking when they happened. But the overall impression
> >is not Nobunaga as villain, but for the most part, Nobunaga as
> >heroic figure.
> >
> >--
> >Jay Kelly
> >oyakata@O...
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vírus e spams?
> Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
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This is so true, in fact he was the exterminator of
ninja.

Paul


--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:---------------------------------
Everything else below aside, Nobunaga was not
'exterminated by
ninjas'.





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On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 05:53:24 -0300, Medhal Mikit St�-ljon Oddhinssonさん wrote in message

>You must be kidding!!!

No, I wasn't kidding.

>When you said
>"But in most Japanese sources, Nobunaga is not seen as a villain."
>You must had meant Japanese CHRISTIAN sources!!!

No, I don't mean Japanese Christian sources.

>Oda Nobunaga still be an negative reference in Japan history even to
>nowaddays.

No. And your use of "still" comes from your assumption that, at
some point, Nobunaga was seen as a villain. This is not the case,
either in the past or now.

>It is not in videogames or in manga, and anime...

Yes, it is. Obviously. That's where the whole conversation got
started. Plus it is seen in at least one "cult movie" as you have
taught me (see below).

>Some parents still tell nobunaga tales to scare ill behaved children at
>Japan, and he is an very used character in some occult movies such as
>Kujaku-Ou!

No. Of course I can't deny that some parents somewhere
might "tell nobunaga stories". But if they do I've never heard
of it. It is certainly not a common practice.

I've never heard of Kujaku-Ou. Anyway if the "Nobuanga as villain"
theme is used in this movies and others like it, it exactly fits my
point -- these are examples of this theme being used in very light
entertainment or pop culture.

>And HEROIC is the tales about those brave ninjas who exterminated the
>bastard!

This is a different use of the word heroic that is outside of the
scope of the current conversation.

>Nobunaga had the vicious addiction to do genocide against buddhist temples
>and against vilages near those temples, and killed and maimed many just
>because they dwelt near those temples, until he decided to mess with the
>vilages inside the Iiga mountain... *a very big grim*...

This paragraph again exactly illustrates my point. This is a western,
modern way of viewing what Nobunaga did.

>The rest of the history

Indeed.


--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Kitsuno wrote:

> Everything else below aside, Nobunaga was not 'exterminated by
> ninjas'.

Depends on what movies you watch. :)

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Nor have I YET to find anyone who tells their children
that "Nobunaga will get you if you don't eat your
kombu..."

This guy has issues.


--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Everything else below aside, Nobunaga was not
> 'exterminated by
> ninjas'.
>
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Medhal Mikit
> St-ljon
> Oddhinsson wrote:
> > You must be kidding!!!
> > When you said
> > "But in most Japanese sources, Nobunaga is not
> seen as a villain."
> > You must had meant Japanese CHRISTIAN sources!!!
> >
> > Oda Nobunaga still be an negative reference in
> Japan history even
> to
> > nowaddays.
> > It is not in videogames or in manga, and anime...
> > Some parents still tell nobunaga tales to scare
> ill behaved
> children at
> > Japan, and he is an very used character in some
> occult movies such
> as
> > Kujaku-Ou!
> >
> > And HEROIC is the tales about those brave ninjas
> who exterminated
> the
> > bastard!
> >
> > Nobunaga had the vicious addiction to do genocide
> against buddhist
> temples
> > and against vilages near those temples, and killed
> and maimed many
> just
> > because they dwelt near those temples, until he
> decided to mess
> with the
> > vilages inside the Iiga mountain... *a very big
> grim*...
> >
> > The rest of the history, I let to the people who
> know what I am
> speak about,
> > to imagine. :-)
> >
> > In fact, Oda Nobunaga was not too much different
> than the bastard
> of Adolf
> > Hitler himself.
> >
> > Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> > S縊 Paulo - SP
> >
> > >Message: 7
> > > Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:04:03 -0400
> > > From: Oyakata
> > >Subject: Re: Re: Nobunaga as a villain
> > >
> > >On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 02:25:38 -0300, Medhal Mikit
> St・-ljon
> Oddhinsson､ｵ､・
> > >wrote in message
> > >>I must make be remembered that Oda Nobunaga
> attacked most
> buddhist
> > temples,
> > >>and did several atrocities against his own
> people, with the money
> of the
> > >>jesuites...
> > >>
> > >This is a good illustration of the mindset that
> is behind the
> > >"Nobunaga as villain" philosophy in the west.
> It's based on
> > >modern/western sensibilities to reach the
> conclusion
> that "Nobunaga
> > >was a villain". This philosophy really is not
> that popular
> > >in Japan.
> > >
> > >As several people have noted, including the
> original poster,
> > >"Nobunaga as villain" is something you might see
> in computer or
> > >video cames coming out of Japan. It also exists
> in some other
> > >"pop" kinds of entertainment.
> > >
> > >But in most Japanese sources, Nobunaga is not
> seen as a villain.
> His
> > >more over-the-top things that in our day and age
> are quite
> shocking,
> > >were even shocking when they happened. But the
> overall impression
> > >is not Nobunaga as villain, but for the most
> part, Nobunaga as
> > >heroic figure.
> > >
> > >--
> > >Jay Kelly
> > >oyakata@O...
> > >
> >
> >
>

_________________________________________________________

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> > Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br
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> http://www.americanas.com.br/ig/
>
>

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On Jun 4, 2004, at 10:53 PM, Medhal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson wrote:

> You must be kidding!!!
> When you said
> "But in most Japanese sources, Nobunaga is not seen as a villain."
> You must had meant Japanese CHRISTIAN sources!!!
>
> Oda Nobunaga still be an negative reference in Japan history even to
> nowaddays.
> It is not in videogames or in manga, and anime...
> Some parents still tell nobunaga tales to scare ill behaved children at
> Japan, and he is an very used character in some occult movies such as
> Kujaku-Ou!
>
> And HEROIC is the tales about those brave ninjas who exterminated the
> bastard!

(cut)

As said in a prevoius mail, sure, if we judge Nobunaga by modern
standards, he was a villain, indeed.

However, even if today Japan has digested a bit of the Western concept
of "good" and "bad," I can assure you that Nobunaga is NOT universally
seen as a murderer. Quite the opposite, I'd argue. He is the "cool bad
guy," eventually, somebody like Darth Vader... and to some, a hero,
embodying some of the highest values of the Japanese tradition.

I would say there are few reasons for that:

1 - He was a "strong man," and the Japanese revere people with strong
will.

2 - Asia has a tradition of men who cared about "duty," rather than
about individuals. Just think of the indian Prince Krishna in the
Bhagavad-Gita, of the Chinese first Emperor, Qin Shi Huang Di (who's
celebrated even in recent times, by Mao Tze Tung, rather than in Jet
Li's "Hero"), and of course of Nobunaga and Hideyoshi. Nobunaga had a
goal: to unify Japan. He dedicated his life to that, and he wouldn't
stop at nothing. Some people like such attitude.
Again, careful with comparisons with people such as Hitler. Hitler
invaded foreign countries, and he created a bureaucratic apparatus to
kill civilians (=concentration camps). Nobunaga played in his own
country and he killed simply what was on his way.

3 - Finally, it can be argued that Nobunaga, just as many other
unifiers, worked for a 'greater good.' The unification was necessarily
a bloodshed, but what emerged at its end (the Tokugawa Shogunate)
formed the basis for modern Japan and guaranteed 250+ years of relative
peace. Ultimately, if Japan would have go on "sengokuing" another
100-200 years, it would have been routed easily by the first Western
fleet arriving. So, the unification was a good thing for Japan, I would
say.

In general, our approach as historians (??) should be less judgmental.
We are here to observe, perhaps comment, but we are in no position to
judge the "morality" or the "sense of justice" of a man who lived some
500 years ago in a far away country, engulfed in a civil war.

Sure, by our modern Enlightenment-Christian influenced standard, he was
a villain. But this is a biased point of view. I think.

cepo

PS = I believe Nobunaga was not killed by ninja, but by Akechi
Mitsuhide's men. Apparently, Nobunaga was on his way to Kyoto to do
some tea ceremony. He stayed over at a temple, and there he's got it.
There is no historical evidence of his death, however. The temple
(Honnouji) burnt down, and he probably perished in the fire, perhaps
after committing seppuku. It was 1582. Hideyoshi, was campaigning in
the West, and once he heard the news he returned to Kyoto, and he
destroyed Akechi Mitsuhide, to become the new leader of Japan.

I agree with everything you've been saying on this topic. But, I
disagree with the analysis you provide below.


On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 22:33:15 -1000, Cesare Polenghiさん wrote in message <27DB0992-B794-11D8-8681-000393962F98@...>

>I would say there are few reasons for that:
>
>1 - He was a "strong man," and the Japanese revere people with strong
>will.

This is a bit too convenient. On the one hand it's too generalistic.
On the other hand there were plentoy of strong men to be had during
this period. Not many have become as talked about and as studied as
Nobunaga. So I guess at the least I could agree that this is part of
the reason - but it doesn't go very far in explaining Nobunaga's
legacy.

>2 - Asia has a tradition of men who cared about "duty," rather than
>about individuals. Just think of the indian Prince Krishna in the

First this again is too generalistic. We are not talking about
"Asia" we are specifically talking about Japan.

Second it can be argued that Nobunaga had no sense of duty whatsoever.
He killed several of his older relatives on his way to uniting his
own kuni (Owari). He got rid of several long-time family vassals and
is famous for his ability to pick and chose followers of ability.
This implies that he did not use tradition or loyalty or duty to
maintain his retainers.

>Li's "Hero"), and of course of Nobunaga and Hideyoshi. Nobunaga had a

I don't understand your reference here. How do Nobunaga and Hideyoshi
relate to "duty" here?

>goal: to unify Japan. He dedicated his life to that, and he wouldn't
>stop at nothing. Some people like such attitude.

This is not the sense of "duty" that is meant in Japan. Duty (in the
honorable, admirable sense) is not to a cause, but to a person of
autority, or one could say to a structure. Duty to one's own goal of
unifying Japan is not in and of itself an admirable trait that would
go down well in the annals of history.

>Again, careful with comparisons with people such as Hitler. Hitler
>invaded foreign countries, and he created a bureaucratic apparatus to
>kill civilians (=concentration camps). Nobunaga played in his own
>country and he killed simply what was on his way.

I agree about the unfortunate temptation to compare with Hitler.
It's quite banal. But I would also caution that Nobunaga did kill more
than "those who were in his way". He was ruthless and certainly
over the top on more than one occasion.

>3 - Finally, it can be argued that Nobunaga, just as many other
>unifiers, worked for a 'greater good.' The unification was necessarily

I see this as being dangerously close to falling into the very trap
that you are cautioning against. Nobunaga's efforts were neither for
good nor for evil. He did what he did out of sheer personal ambition
and his sense of his place in the order of things.

>a bloodshed, but what emerged at its end (the Tokugawa Shogunate)
>formed the basis for modern Japan and guaranteed 250+ years of relative
>peace. Ultimately, if Japan would have go on "sengokuing" another
>100-200 years, it would have been routed easily by the first Western
>fleet arriving. So, the unification was a good thing for Japan, I would
>say.

I agree with this. Nobunaga's place in Japanese history comes, at
least in part, because he is seen as having kicked off the process
of ending the old order and bringing together the new order. His
role in the thing - whatever his motive - has been to put the nail in
the coffin of the old way, and to set the wheels in motion for
Tokugawa to finally pacify the country. He is seen as the terrible
destroyer and the mighty creator - a powerful, aweful, awesome man who
it is almost impossible to believe actually existed. It seems like
a fictional story. His impact on the direction of Japan is impossible
to measure. That is, at least to some degree, the simple reason why he
lives on in the imagination and in the popular culture.

>In general, our approach as historians (??) should be less judgmental.
>We are here to observe, perhaps comment, but we are in no position to
>judge the "morality" or the "sense of justice" of a man who lived some
>500 years ago in a far away country, engulfed in a civil war.

Yes yes yes. 1000 time yes. And this approach is much more
common among Japanese historians.

>Sure, by our modern Enlightenment-Christian influenced standard, he was
>a villain. But this is a biased point of view. I think.

Yes again!

>PS = I believe Nobunaga was not killed by ninja, but by Akechi
>Mitsuhide's men. Apparently, Nobunaga was on his way to Kyoto to do
>some tea ceremony. He stayed over at a temple, and there he's got it.
>There is no historical evidence of his death, however. The temple
>(Honnouji) burnt down, and he probably perished in the fire, perhaps
>after committing seppuku. It was 1582

There are volumes and volumes written about this one incident. Noone
will ever know just exactly what happened there. But the accepted
story is indeed that Akechi Mitsuhide arranged for the attack.
Nobunaga is said to have fought without armor for some time, then
when it was clear that the day was lost, he retreated into the
temple to commit seppuku.

If you enjoy Japanese there is a great site that I've enjoyed
reading over the years:
http://www.inv.co.jp/~yoshio/HJ/index.html

> Hideyoshi, was campaigning in
>the West, and once he heard the news he returned to Kyoto, and he
>destroyed Akechi Mitsuhide, to become the new leader of Japan.

Wow! Talk about a condensed version of events!

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Oyakata wrote:

> Second it can be argued that Nobunaga had no sense of duty whatsoever.

He was in charge. Duty was something others had to HIM. OTOH, he was very
respectful when dealing with the court.

> He killed several of his older relatives on his way to uniting his
> own kuni (Owari). He got rid of several long-time family vassals and
> is famous for his ability to pick and chose followers of ability.
> This implies that he did not use tradition or loyalty or duty to
> maintain his retainers.

On the contrary. He relied on it -- but it was duty and loyalty to HIM that
mattered. Anyone who betrayed him, plotted against him, or threatened his
position was no longer to be trusted, and needed to be dealt with.

Rather pragmatic, really.

> This is not the sense of "duty" that is meant in Japan. Duty (in the
> honorable, admirable sense) is not to a cause, but to a person of
> autority, or one could say to a structure. Duty to one's own goal of
> unifying Japan is not in and of itself an admirable trait that would
> go down well in the annals of history.

Not if one sees the unification as something that needs to be done, and one sees
oneself as the only one who can do it. It's the whole "duty to a higher cause"
thing. Ambition can figure into it, but there's a duty to one's vision.

> I agree about the unfortunate temptation to compare with Hitler.
> It's quite banal. But I would also caution that Nobunaga did kill more
> than "those who were in his way". He was ruthless and certainly
> over the top on more than one occasion.

True. But it discouraged a lot more outbreaks. It's a rather bloody version of
the "breaking eggs to make omelettes" thing, with a little bit of "pour
encourager les autres" as well. You wipe out a village or two now and five other
villages down the line will think twice about rising.

It's telling that the thing that did Nobunaga in was betrayal and treason rather
than an outside enemy. I don't think anyone but an insider COULD have gotten him.

> There are volumes and volumes written about this one incident. Noone
> will ever know just exactly what happened there. But the accepted
> story is indeed that Akechi Mitsuhide arranged for the attack.

"Arranged for"? What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Mitsuhide *ran* the attack, he ordered it. He didn't contract for someone from
New Jersey or Koka.


Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 19:26:58 -0500, Anthony J. Bryantさん wrote in message <40C3B652.8070003@...>

>Oyakata wrote:
>> Second it can be argued that Nobunaga had no sense of duty whatsoever.
>
>He was in charge. Duty was something others had to HIM. OTOH, he was very
>respectful when dealing with the court.

I think the broader context of the conversation would probably be
helpful.

The person who I was replying to said:
"Asia has a tradition of men who cared about "duty," rather than
about individuals."

I was replying to that comment. Which is why I said that Nobunaga
did not have a sense of duty. Which (in my opinion) he did not. That
is not a moralistic judgement on my part.

He was respectful to the court but he would not suffer to be bound by
duty. He showed minimal respect to his superiors in terms of rank
or life-station (ie his elders). This of course includes the Shogun.

>> He killed several of his older relatives on his way to uniting his
>> own kuni (Owari). He got rid of several long-time family vassals and
>> is famous for his ability to pick and chose followers of ability.
>> This implies that he did not use tradition or loyalty or duty to
>> maintain his retainers.
>
>On the contrary. He relied on it -- but it was duty and loyalty to HIM that
>mattered. Anyone who betrayed him, plotted against him, or threatened his
>position was no longer to be trusted, and needed to be dealt with.

Unfortunately I think you've missed my point. Maybe I didn't do a
very good job of explaining it. I hope that I did not say that
"Nobunaga did not demand loyalty or duty". What I meant to say is that
he did not practice it himself, either to his betters or to his own
vassals.

>Rather pragmatic, really.

Agreed. However it is often pointed out that Nobunaga was this
way to a much higher degree than most of his contemporaries. So
while it may be pragmatic it wasn't that common.

>> This is not the sense of "duty" that is meant in Japan. Duty (in the
>> honorable, admirable sense) is not to a cause, but to a person of
>> autority, or one could say to a structure. Duty to one's own goal of
>> unifying Japan is not in and of itself an admirable trait that would
>> go down well in the annals of history.
>
>Not if one sees the unification as something that needs to be done, and one
>sees
>oneself as the only one who can do it. It's the whole "duty to a higher cause"
>thing. Ambition can figure into it, but there's a duty to one's vision.

This is incorrect in the context of the discussion. It implies that
duty can somehow be judged based on one's own personal opinions of
what ought to be done. This is not how duty works, at least not in the
Japanese aethetic. You don't get to pick your duty. That is the very
essense of the thing.

To be clear I understand what you're saying and I agree that this
sense of purpose was what propelled Nobunaga (and I said as much in a
part of my message that you've chosen not to quote) . But again,
recall the context of this discussion. The messase I was replying to
somehow said that Nobunaga's sense of duty is what makes him such a
popular figure in Japan.

And I simply disagree with that assessment. This sense of "duty to
one's own vision" is not -- in Japan -- the kind of trait that would
be admired and would explain why Nobunaga has become such a grand
figure in Japan. Duty in the sense of 義理 or 義務 would have
explained it, but not "duty" to one's vision. This "being true to
one's own self" is called wagamama 吾がまま in Japan and it is almost
the oposite of admirable.

>> I agree about the unfortunate temptation to compare with Hitler.
>> It's quite banal. But I would also caution that Nobunaga did kill more
>> than "those who were in his way". He was ruthless and certainly
>> over the top on more than one occasion.
>
>True. But it discouraged a lot more outbreaks. It's a rather bloody version of
>the "breaking eggs to make omelettes" thing, with a little bit of "pour
>encourager les autres" as well. You wipe out a village or two now and five
>other
>villages down the line will think twice about rising.

100% agree. My overall point is that people tend to exaggerate
their 信長像 one way or the other. Either they have this "Nobunaga as
blood-sucking vampire" image or the have this "everything he did was
perfectly normal for his day and age" image. Both are incorrect. He
was not a blood-sucking vampire, but then again some of his actions
were seen as atrocious even at the time.

>> There are volumes and volumes written about this one incident. Noone
>> will ever know just exactly what happened there. But the accepted
>> story is indeed that Akechi Mitsuhide arranged for the attack.
>
>"Arranged for"? What the heck is that supposed to mean?
>
>Mitsuhide *ran* the attack, he ordered it. He didn't contract for someone from
>New Jersey or Koka.

As you can tell from my comment that "Noone will ever know just exa
ctly what happened there" I feel it's always best to hedge my
expressions when talking about this incident

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Come on!!! What of different was in his deeds that was so different of other
kings who supported kristendoom?

In Norway, Olaf Tryggvarsson killed more than 4000 people in his own country
just for the "crime" to refuse to accept the new unique god and betray their
ancestors gods and goddesses... The Helgar Kindir, Asar ok Vanir!

With Nobunaga was all the same...

"Don�t spread I am telling lies.
Just get up and PROVE I am wrong!
The history of the Church
is full of lies and conspiration for power!"
Goetche

The Kristendoom prommoted the idea of the divine right to rule, as well,
military support to those leaders who would support such religion
infiltration.

For those without honour like him, and with a lack of respect for his
ancestors and ancestral gods and goddesses, it would be easy to him, like
many christian kings did, to sell his soul for the undead god in echange to
more Power, disregarding the price that is the blood and soul of his own
people...

And yes! He hated buddhism! If would be just the organization, he would not
kill and torture poor and weaponless villagers for the crime of just
dwelling near those temples...

It is sad.... very sad...

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
S�o Paulo - SP Brazil

>Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 19:58:18 -1000
> From: Cesare Polenghi
>Subject: Re: Re: Nobunaga as a villain
>
>On Jun 4, 2004, at 1:54 PM, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
>
>> Rob wrote:
>>
>> > Someone had mentioned that Oda Nobunaga was the most Christian
>> daimyo. Please review the daimyos of Hizen province, including Arima
>> and Omura clans in the 16th Centure. It was the daimyo Omura who
>> granted the Portugese Nagasaki port. And the ties with the Portugese
>> in Nagasaki and Omura. There's even a St. Omura in the Catholic faith
>> who is a canonized Saint.
>>
>> You misread my message (or I miswrote the intention). Nobunaga was
>> the daimyo in
>> the greatest position to do good things for the Christians. Yes,
>> there were
>> daimyo in Kyushu and elsewhere who converted, but they had little
>> effect outside
>> their own domains. Nobunaga was quite different in his sphere of
>> influence.
>>
>> Tony
>
>I think Nobunaga was interested in Christianity mainly for two reasons:
>1 - Guns. The Portuguese missionaries (and the merchants that arrived
>with them) brought some, and promised more. I have even read somewhere
>(but not sure, perhaps the experts of this list can confirm) that
>Nobunaga wore a Portuguese armor, at times.
>2 - Nobunaga hated organized Buddhism, not the religion or the
>philosophy, but the "Buddhist posse" (the ikki). Christianity was thus
>a convenient 'alternative.'
>I really doubt Nobunaga was interested in the Christian ideals,
>nonetheless he seemed to have an interest for things from the West,
>especially if they could give him a political-ideological or martial
>advantage.
>
>cepo
>

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On Jun 6, 2004, at 2:26 PM, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

> On the contrary. He relied on it -- but it was duty and loyalty to
> HIM that
> mattered. Anyone who betrayed him, plotted against him, or threatened
> his
> position was no longer to be trusted, and needed to be dealt with.

...apart from Toshiie... at least in the drama...
Just kidding, uh :oD

cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Jun 6, 2004, at 2:59 AM, Oyakata wrote:

> 1 - He was a "strong man," and the Japanese revere people with strong
> >will.
> This is a bit too convenient. On the one hand it's too generalistic.
> On the other hand there were plentoy of strong men to be had during
> this period. Not many have become as talked about and as studied as
> Nobunaga. So I guess at the least I could agree that this is part of
> the reason - but it doesn't go very far in explaining Nobunaga's
> legacy.
>
> >2 - Asia has a tradition of men who cared about "duty," rather than
> >about individuals. Just think of the indian Prince Krishna in the
> First this again is too generalistic. We are not talking about
> "Asia" we are specifically talking about Japan.
>
> Second it can be argued that Nobunaga had no sense of duty whatsoever.
> He killed several of his older relatives on his way to uniting his
> own kuni (Owari). He got rid of several long-time family vassals and
> is famous for his ability to pick and chose followers of ability.
> This implies that he did not use tradition or loyalty or duty to
> maintain his retainers.
>
> >Li's "Hero"), and of course of Nobunaga and Hideyoshi. Nobunaga had a
>
> I don't understand your reference here. How do Nobunaga and Hideyoshi
> relate to "duty" here?

What I meant is that in east Asia the idea of "You've got to do what
you've got to do" is accepted without the moralistic filter of the West
that -once again- comes from our Christian/Enlightenment heritage.
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]