Most Admirable Samurai and also about Nobunaga

Are you kidding, Mr Alexander?

The one who did a real admirable work on this subject was Takeda Shingen!
One of the most admirable persons in the Japan History! Tokugawa did the
unifying of Japan because his incursions had peace as a goal, unlike the
christian Nobunaga, that only spread terrorism and genocide.

And yes, I admire him as well Musashi. Of course I am speaking about
Takeda...

Btw, that statements (babbling in japanese) about Musashi being not fammous
to real japan dwellers is ridiculous. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I have
some basis to call the attention of all.

First of all, his book Go Rin No Shou is obrigatory reading to several japan
executive staff people.

Second, There was a Japanese TV Series Drama about Miyamoto Musashi's
biography and it was very popular in Japan.

Third, there was TONS of manga and gekiga that was in homnage of Musashi,
mentioned him somewhere or used a version of him like an popular comic manga
of the 80s that had a kind of Musashi-Kid as its principal character.

I remember a joke very well inside such manga...

There was a duel between musashi-kid and another little samurai about who
would be a better samurai.

Musashi glared to him and he glared to Musashi, and no one lost this face
down. Then the little samurai told Musashi this:

"Bushido's way is to not be afraid of Death, in fact is to live in death",
then suddendly he killed himself in front of Musashi just to prove him that
he is better than Musashi.

With tears on his face, Musashi said that this is correct, but NOT NECESSARY
in this WAY!!!

(this was supposed to be a joke in such a dark humour typical of such comics
serie and of course, was not published in english)

Also, I've heard about Musashi much time before all this NIPON-Modism, and
it was around the 80's as well!

Sincerelly

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
São Paulo - SP Brazil


Message: 1
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 11:29:47 +0300
From: "Edward Alexander" <edy@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 768

No,Tokugawa and Hideyoshi would never have ended like they did.If Nobunaga
didn't take all that territory,Hideyoshi would have never been to
Korea.....and perhaps the Tokugawa dinasty would't have existed....

Edy

----- Original Message -----
From: Thiago Buschinelli Sorrentino
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 12:27 AM
Subject: RES: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 768



Anyways, would Hideiyoshi and Tokugawa have gotten that far without
Nobunaga´s incursions? Specially Tokuwaga, who seemed to be at the right
time, at the right place? Whilst I do not intend to set myself as an
expert
on the field (an enthusiast, rather - please bear this in mind), would it
be
too far from feasible bounds to hold that Tokugawa won by default (lack of
capable opponents)?

Thiago
-----

> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...>
> Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
>
> I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first
'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question itself,
surely
a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are not
mutually exclusive terms.
> Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question? When was
Japan
unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically part of
Japan
until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and expeditions
into
the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the Nansei
(SW)
Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first decades of
the
Edo-jidai.
>
> M.Lorimer
>
> "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> kentguy212002 wrote:
>
> > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan? steve
> > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
>
> Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was hardly
the
first
> "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>

On Apr 6, 2004, at 6:29 PM, Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson wrote:

> Are you kidding, Mr Alexander?
>
> The one who did a real admirable work on this subject was Takeda
> Shingen!
> One of the most admirable persons in the Japan History! Tokugawa did
> the
> unifying of Japan because his incursions had peace as a goal, unlike
> the
> christian Nobunaga, that only spread terrorism and genocide.

Sorry,
Nobunaga was not Christian at all. He had Christian "friends" because
they helped him to get fire-weapons, and because he really hated
organized Buddhism, especially the Ikki's. Bur Christian, he was not.

Regarding him being a terrorist and genocidal, I tend to disagree as
well. His war techniques had not much ado with terrorism, and -while he
killed many innocent, as most generals- it doesn't seem to me that he
was concerned with the destruction of any specific group.

And Hideyoshi was so obsessed with war that once Japan was at peace, he
attacked Korea.

Besides that, what are your basis on which judging a man who lived
centuries ago in a country engulfed in a civil war? He and Shingen were
warriors, and did what warriors do. They fought to win, I order to
obtain power.

Cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Exactly, "genocide" is the eradication (full or partial) of a race of people, be it the Jews in Europe (a series of pogroms which tragically dates back to the 11th Century in England, as a precursor to Crusades or responses to crises) or the clinically-entitled "ethnic-cleansing of the former Yugoslav Republics or such crisis-ridden countries as Rwanda. Oda Nobunaga undertook no such actions. He eradicated threats, admittedly ruthlessly and with little consideration for the status of those he deemed to be threats. Of course women and children were casualties, which is never right, but simply the way it was, and still is.
He held little regard for Buddhism, shown by his allegedly debaucherous formative years and lack of respect shown at his father's funeral, but he was no Christian hoping to destroy Buddhism, but only to destroy those who stood in his way. This may have lead to large loss of life but this wasn't genocide, and it struck terror into his opponents but was not what we now call terrorism.
The meas suited the objective, an objective that is hard to sum up in much of the language we are so used to today.
M.Lorimer

Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

On Apr 6, 2004, at 6:29 PM, Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson wrote:

> Are you kidding, Mr Alexander?
>
> The one who did a real admirable work on this subject was Takeda
> Shingen!
> One of the most admirable persons in the Japan History! Tokugawa did
> the
> unifying of Japan because his incursions had peace as a goal, unlike
> the
> christian Nobunaga, that only spread terrorism and genocide.

Sorry,
Nobunaga was not Christian at all. He had Christian "friends" because
they helped him to get fire-weapons, and because he really hated
organized Buddhism, especially the Ikki's. Bur Christian, he was not.

Regarding him being a terrorist and genocidal, I tend to disagree as
well. His war techniques had not much ado with terrorism, and -while he
killed many innocent, as most generals- it doesn't seem to me that he
was concerned with the destruction of any specific group.

And Hideyoshi was so obsessed with war that once Japan was at peace, he
attacked Korea.

Besides that, what are your basis on which judging a man who lived
centuries ago in a country engulfed in a civil war? He and Shingen were
warriors, and did what warriors do. They fought to win, I order to
obtain power.

Cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mr. Octavio,

First,don't call me mr. Alexander.Call me Edy because I'm nearly 13 years old.I admire very much Takeda Shingen.He is one of the most important persons in Japanese history.He was the first to build a dam on a river in Kozuke(I think) or something like that.He was an excellent commander,had excellent generals under his command,ex. Kosaka Masanobu,Yamamoto Kansuke,Itagaki Nobutaka(he did an excellent thing with Shingen,I'll explain in a mail) and many other........The part with excellent commanding is the 4th battle of Kawanakajima where he defeated the great Dragon of Echigo(Uesugi Kenshin)....Too bad that Takeda Katsuyori(his son,he was born by lady Suwa)wasn't such a good commander like him.If he was,he could have defeated Tokugawa and Oda and bring back the peace with the Takeda clan rulling all over Japan.

Edy

----- Original Message -----
From: Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 7:29 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Most Admirable Samurai and also about Nobunaga


Are you kidding, Mr Alexander?

The one who did a real admirable work on this subject was Takeda Shingen!
One of the most admirable persons in the Japan History! Tokugawa did the
unifying of Japan because his incursions had peace as a goal, unlike the
christian Nobunaga, that only spread terrorism and genocide.

And yes, I admire him as well Musashi. Of course I am speaking about
Takeda...

Btw, that statements (babbling in japanese) about Musashi being not fammous
to real japan dwellers is ridiculous. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I have
some basis to call the attention of all.

First of all, his book Go Rin No Shou is obrigatory reading to several japan
executive staff people.

Second, There was a Japanese TV Series Drama about Miyamoto Musashi's
biography and it was very popular in Japan.

Third, there was TONS of manga and gekiga that was in homnage of Musashi,
mentioned him somewhere or used a version of him like an popular comic manga
of the 80s that had a kind of Musashi-Kid as its principal character.

I remember a joke very well inside such manga...

There was a duel between musashi-kid and another little samurai about who
would be a better samurai.

Musashi glared to him and he glared to Musashi, and no one lost this face
down. Then the little samurai told Musashi this:

"Bushido's way is to not be afraid of Death, in fact is to live in death",
then suddendly he killed himself in front of Musashi just to prove him that
he is better than Musashi.

With tears on his face, Musashi said that this is correct, but NOT NECESSARY
in this WAY!!!

(this was supposed to be a joke in such a dark humour typical of such comics
serie and of course, was not published in english)

Also, I've heard about Musashi much time before all this NIPON-Modism, and
it was around the 80's as well!

Sincerelly

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
São Paulo - SP Brazil


Message: 1
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 11:29:47 +0300
From: "Edward Alexander" <edy@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 768

No,Tokugawa and Hideyoshi would never have ended like they did.If Nobunaga
didn't take all that territory,Hideyoshi would have never been to
Korea.....and perhaps the Tokugawa dinasty would't have existed....

Edy
----- Original Message -----
From: Thiago Buschinelli Sorrentino
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 12:27 AM
Subject: RES: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 768



Anyways, would Hideiyoshi and Tokugawa have gotten that far without
Nobunaga´s incursions? Specially Tokuwaga, who seemed to be at the right
time, at the right place? Whilst I do not intend to set myself as an
expert
on the field (an enthusiast, rather - please bear this in mind), would it
be
too far from feasible bounds to hold that Tokugawa won by default (lack of
capable opponents)?

Thiago
-----

> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...>
> Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
>
> I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first
'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question itself,
surely
a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are not
mutually exclusive terms.
> Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question? When was
Japan
unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically part of
Japan
until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and expeditions
into
the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the Nansei
(SW)
Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first decades of
the
Edo-jidai.
>
> M.Lorimer
>
> "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> kentguy212002 wrote:
>
> > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan? steve
> > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
>
> Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was hardly
the
first
> "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>






---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Again, I do not claim mastership over Ancient Japanese History, however, stating that Tokugawa had peace as a goal doesn´t seem accurate enough. Unless, of course, peace is defined as the absence of opposition, by which any warlord and any warmonger may be shielded by the flag of peace. I can´t recall to whom it is ascribed, but a very interesting quotation sums it up: "diplomacy is the art of saying ´nice doggie, nice doggie´ until one finds a stick big enough".

I believe one of the most important conclusions we can harness from the Nobunaga-Akechi incident concerns the value of loyalty. It doesn´t matter how powerful and accomplished an enitity is, for the lack of loyal retainers may cause the collapse of any structure.

I tend to agree with Edy pertaining to the outcome of the Sengoku Jidai. Both Hideiyoshi´s and Tokugawa´s achievements laid heavily on the road paved by Nobunaga.

Also, it is important to note that the Tokugawa clan was not above employing social control measures in order to maintain power. The class restrictions and the creation of a "political police" (like the shinsengummi) are examples of that.

Cheers,

Thiago

p.s.: Octavio, would you attend classes at the Niten Institute?


A presente mensagem contém informações e/ou anexos confidenciais, protegidos pelas leis de sigilo de correspondência e profissional. Caso você não seja o destinatário correto da mensagem, por favor, apague-a imediatamente, bem como qualquer cópia impressa. Obrigado.

The following message and attachments contain priviledged information, which are protected by applicable laws. If you are not the intended addressee, please delete the email from all machines to which you have access, and destroy any printed copies. Thank you.

----- Original Message -----
From: Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 1:29 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Most Admirable Samurai and also about Nobunaga


Are you kidding, Mr Alexander?

The one who did a real admirable work on this subject was Takeda Shingen!
One of the most admirable persons in the Japan History! Tokugawa did the
unifying of Japan because his incursions had peace as a goal, unlike the
christian Nobunaga, that only spread terrorism and genocide.

And yes, I admire him as well Musashi. Of course I am speaking about
Takeda...

Btw, that statements (babbling in japanese) about Musashi being not fammous
to real japan dwellers is ridiculous. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I have
some basis to call the attention of all.

First of all, his book Go Rin No Shou is obrigatory reading to several japan
executive staff people.

Second, There was a Japanese TV Series Drama about Miyamoto Musashi's
biography and it was very popular in Japan.

Third, there was TONS of manga and gekiga that was in homnage of Musashi,
mentioned him somewhere or used a version of him like an popular comic manga
of the 80s that had a kind of Musashi-Kid as its principal character.

I remember a joke very well inside such manga...

There was a duel between musashi-kid and another little samurai about who
would be a better samurai.

Musashi glared to him and he glared to Musashi, and no one lost this face
down. Then the little samurai told Musashi this:

"Bushido's way is to not be afraid of Death, in fact is to live in death",
then suddendly he killed himself in front of Musashi just to prove him that
he is better than Musashi.

With tears on his face, Musashi said that this is correct, but NOT NECESSARY
in this WAY!!!

(this was supposed to be a joke in such a dark humour typical of such comics
serie and of course, was not published in english)

Also, I've heard about Musashi much time before all this NIPON-Modism, and
it was around the 80's as well!

Sincerelly

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
São Paulo - SP Brazil


Message: 1
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 11:29:47 +0300
From: "Edward Alexander" <edy@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 768

No,Tokugawa and Hideyoshi would never have ended like they did.If Nobunaga
didn't take all that territory,Hideyoshi would have never been to
Korea.....and perhaps the Tokugawa dinasty would't have existed....

Edy
----- Original Message -----
From: Thiago Buschinelli Sorrentino
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 12:27 AM
Subject: RES: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 768



Anyways, would Hideiyoshi and Tokugawa have gotten that far without
Nobunaga´s incursions? Specially Tokuwaga, who seemed to be at the right
time, at the right place? Whilst I do not intend to set myself as an
expert
on the field (an enthusiast, rather - please bear this in mind), would it
be
too far from feasible bounds to hold that Tokugawa won by default (lack of
capable opponents)?

Thiago
-----

> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...>
> Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
>
> I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first
'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question itself,
surely
a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are not
mutually exclusive terms.
> Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question? When was
Japan
unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically part of
Japan
until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and expeditions
into
the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the Nansei
(SW)
Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first decades of
the
Edo-jidai.
>
> M.Lorimer
>
> "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> kentguy212002 wrote:
>
> > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan? steve
> > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
>
> Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was hardly
the
first
> "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>






---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Me�al_Mikit_St�r-ljon_Oddhinsson

>
> The one who did a real admirable work on this
> subject was Takeda Shingen!
> One of the most admirable persons in the Japan
> History! Tokugawa did the
> unifying of Japan because his incursions had peace
> as a goal, unlike the
> christian Nobunaga, that only spread terrorism and
> genocide.

1. Nobunaga--NOT CHRISTIAN.

2. TAKEDA SHINGEN'S GOAL: POWER AND CONTROL.
TOKUGAWA IEYASU'S GOAL: POWER AND CONTROL.
ODA NOBUNAGA'S GOAL: POWER AND CONTROL.

Takeda Shingen killed his own father. Sure, a lot of
people admire him, but you're mistaken if you think
he's perfect.

Tokugawa's goal wasn't peace--it was control. If it
was simply peace, why didn't he let Hideyori take
control? What was the need for a Sekigahara or Osaka
Campaign?

>
> Btw, that statements (babbling in japanese) about
> Musashi being not fammous
> to real japan dwellers is ridiculous.

No one said he wasn't famous in Japan--just that it's
sad that he's the one samurai that most Westerners
know. Sure, he's famous--why else do a Taiga Drama
based on him? However, he's overrated.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/

Good point Nate.Shingen wasn't perfect at all.He did some stupid things.One
of them was at the battle of Mikata Ga Hara.He let Tokugawa alive.Tokugawa
was nearly killed because he Shingen didn't order his men to kill Tokugawa.
Edy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nate Ledbetter" <ltdomer98@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 2:00 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Most Admirable Samurai and also about Nobunaga


>
> --- Meðal_Mikit_Stór-ljon_Oddhinsson
> >
> > The one who did a real admirable work on this
> > subject was Takeda Shingen!
> > One of the most admirable persons in the Japan
> > History! Tokugawa did the
> > unifying of Japan because his incursions had peace
> > as a goal, unlike the
> > christian Nobunaga, that only spread terrorism and
> > genocide.
>
> 1. Nobunaga--NOT CHRISTIAN.
>
> 2. TAKEDA SHINGEN'S GOAL: POWER AND CONTROL.
> TOKUGAWA IEYASU'S GOAL: POWER AND CONTROL.
> ODA NOBUNAGA'S GOAL: POWER AND CONTROL.
>
> Takeda Shingen killed his own father. Sure, a lot of
> people admire him, but you're mistaken if you think
> he's perfect.
>
> Tokugawa's goal wasn't peace--it was control. If it
> was simply peace, why didn't he let Hideyori take
> control? What was the need for a Sekigahara or Osaka
> Campaign?
>
> >
> > Btw, that statements (babbling in japanese) about
> > Musashi being not fammous
> > to real japan dwellers is ridiculous.
>
> No one said he wasn't famous in Japan--just that it's
> sad that he's the one samurai that most Westerners
> know. Sure, he's famous--why else do a Taiga Drama
> based on him? However, he's overrated.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Octavio-
I hope you will recall that what was said was "most Japanese would not
mention Musashi as the most famous 'samurai'" I think this is very
true, If you said swordsman or martial artist then of course Musashi
would be first....

-t