Re: Digest Number 768

I tend to agree that Nobunaga was not a Shogun. Not a dictator, much less a
unifier. Perhaps the better description to him would be

Terrorist!

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
São Paulo - SP Brazil

PS: Parents in Japan, still nowaddays, mention Nobunaga to ill-behaved
children in scaring stories, just like we do with our children using some
folklore mythic monster.

> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...>
> Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
>
> I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first

'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question itself, surely
a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are not
mutually exclusive terms.

> Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question? When was Japan

unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically part of Japan
until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and expeditions into
the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the Nansei (SW)
Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first decades of the
Edo-jidai.

>
> M.Lorimer
>
> "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> kentguy212002 wrote:
>
> > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan? steve
> > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
>
> Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was hardly the

first

> "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>

Well, since a concequence of his actions led to more and more
territory falling under his control, I think by default Nobunaga is
a 'unifier'...


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon
Oddhinsson wrote:

> I tend to agree that Nobunaga was not a Shogun. Not a dictator,

much less a

> unifier. Perhaps the better description to him would be
>
> Terrorist!
>
> Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> São Paulo - SP Brazil
>
> PS: Parents in Japan, still nowaddays, mention Nobunaga to ill-

behaved

> children in scaring stories, just like we do with our children

using some

> folklore mythic monster.
>
>
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> > From: Michael Lorimer
> > Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
> >
> > I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first
> 'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question

itself, surely

> a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are not
> mutually exclusive terms.
> > Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question? When

was Japan

> unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically part

of Japan

> until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and

expeditions into

> the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the

Nansei (SW)

> Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first

decades of the

> Edo-jidai.
> >
> > M.Lorimer
> >
> > "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > kentguy212002 wrote:
> >
> > > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan? steve
> > > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
> >
> > Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was

hardly the

> first
> > "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
> >
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >

Anyways, would Hideiyoshi and Tokugawa have gotten that far without
Nobunaga´s incursions? Specially Tokuwaga, who seemed to be at the right
time, at the right place? Whilst I do not intend to set myself as an expert
on the field (an enthusiast, rather - please bear this in mind), would it be
too far from feasible bounds to hold that Tokugawa won by default (lack of
capable opponents)?

Thiago
-----

> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...>
> Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
>
> I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first

'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question itself,
surely
a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are not
mutually exclusive terms.

> Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question? When was

Japan
unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically part of
Japan
until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and expeditions into
the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the Nansei
(SW)
Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first decades of
the
Edo-jidai.

>
> M.Lorimer
>
> "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> kentguy212002 wrote:
>
> > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan? steve
> > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
>
> Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was hardly

the
first

> "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>

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Kitsunoさんの<c4prc9+39l6@...>から

>Well, since a concequence of his actions led to more and more
>territory falling under his control, I think by default Nobunaga is
>a 'unifier'...
>

It's probably right to say that he was "a" unifyer, since he took seve
ral regions that had been under the control of various people and
unified them under his control.

But sometimes Nobunaga is referred to as "the" unifier implying that
he succeeded in pulling all of Japan under his rule. Clearly that
was not the case.

So he's "a" unifier in terms of what he accomplished, but he is not
"the" unifier of Sengoku Japan.

Does that make sense?

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

I believe Oda Nobunaga was a great, if (personally) not likeable person. He set himself (through ambition or just sheer consequence), and eventually Japan upon the route to unification. His control was far more effectual than that imposed four centuries earlier by either Taira no Kiyomori or Minamoto no Yoritomo, but like these earlier examples, his control was only over the central island of Honshu, not Kyushu, Shikoku, Chugoku (although that was under way at the time of his death), Tohoku or Hokkaido. Although more significant than Toyotomi Hideyoshi in what he established, it is Hideyoshi who brought the bulk of the archipelago under a central administration and was e facto unifier, although it was Nobunaga or set the work in motion and undertook much of the hard labour (smashing the Ikko ikki, the Enryakuji, the Imagawa, the Takeda, &c) that made the work of Toyotomi and the Tokugawa considerably easier.
M.Lorimer

Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:
Kitsuno､ｵ､�､ﾎ<c4prc9+39l6@...>､ｫ､�

>Well, since a concequence of his actions led to more and more
>territory falling under his control, I think by default Nobunaga is
>a 'unifier'...
>

It's probably right to say that he was "a" unifyer, since he took seve
ral regions that had been under the control of various people and
unified them under his control.

But sometimes Nobunaga is referred to as "the" unifier implying that
he succeeded in pulling all of Japan under his rule. Clearly that
was not the case.

So he's "a" unifier in terms of what he accomplished, but he is not
"the" unifier of Sengoku Japan.

Does that make sense?

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...


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Michael Lorimer wrote:

> I believe Oda Nobunaga was a great, if (personally) not likeable person.

I assume you mean "great, if unlikeable" -- "great, if not likeable" means a
*very* different thing.



Tony

Bryant-sensei
I just hope that my occasionally sloppy grammar is all that you are opposed to, not the comments themselves. Fuchyuui de honto ni moushiwake arimasen.
M.Lorimer

"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
Michael Lorimer wrote:

> I believe Oda Nobunaga was a great, if (personally) not likeable person.

I assume you mean "great, if unlikeable" -- "great, if not likeable" means a
*very* different thing.



Tony



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Michael Lorimer wrote:

> Bryant-sensei I just hope that my occasionally sloppy grammar is all that you
> are opposed to, not the comments themselves. Fuchyuui de honto ni moushiwake
> arimasen. M.Lorimer

Definitely.

I just thought it was an amusingly fortuitous oops, given Nobunaga's rep.

Tony

< children in scaring stories, just like we do with our children using some
folklore mythic monster.>>

Eleven years living in Japan and I have never heard of this happening. Most
parents never scare their children into good behavior. The few who do will
often use "tanuki" or something like that to warn their kids.

Quite, it was just too early in the a.m to have the 'English-head' on.
M.Lorimer

"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
Michael Lorimer wrote:

> Bryant-sensei I just hope that my occasionally sloppy grammar is all that you
> are opposed to, not the comments themselves. Fuchyuui de honto ni moushiwake
> arimasen. M.Lorimer

Definitely.

I just thought it was an amusingly fortuitous oops, given Nobunaga's rep.

Tony





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No,Tokugawa and Hideyoshi would never have ended like they did.If Nobunaga didn't take all that territory,Hideyoshi would have never been to Korea.....and perhaps the Tokugawa dinasty would't have existed....

Edy

----- Original Message -----
From: Thiago Buschinelli Sorrentino
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 12:27 AM
Subject: RES: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 768



Anyways, would Hideiyoshi and Tokugawa have gotten that far without
Nobunaga´s incursions? Specially Tokuwaga, who seemed to be at the right
time, at the right place? Whilst I do not intend to set myself as an expert
on the field (an enthusiast, rather - please bear this in mind), would it be
too far from feasible bounds to hold that Tokugawa won by default (lack of
capable opponents)?

Thiago
-----

> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...>
> Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
>
> I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first
'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question itself,
surely
a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are not
mutually exclusive terms.
> Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question? When was
Japan
unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically part of
Japan
until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and expeditions into
the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the Nansei
(SW)
Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first decades of
the
Edo-jidai.
>
> M.Lorimer
>
> "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> kentguy212002 wrote:
>
> > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan? steve
> > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
>
> Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was hardly
the
first
> "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>




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Interesting stuff.Ha Ha Ha!!!!I laughed much at this thing...

Edy

----- Original Message -----
From: Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 768


I tend to agree that Nobunaga was not a Shogun. Not a dictator, much less a
unifier. Perhaps the better description to him would be

Terrorist!

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
São Paulo - SP Brazil

PS: Parents in Japan, still nowaddays, mention Nobunaga to ill-behaved
children in scaring stories, just like we do with our children using some
folklore mythic monster.


> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...>
> Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
>
> I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first
'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question itself, surely
a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are not
mutually exclusive terms.
> Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question? When was Japan
unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically part of Japan
until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and expeditions into
the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the Nansei (SW)
Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first decades of the
Edo-jidai.
>
> M.Lorimer
>
> "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
> kentguy212002 wrote:
>
> > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan? steve
> > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
>
> Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was hardly the
first
> "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

maybe, with too much japanese study and his
'ancestry', he is maaad???!!!


--- William&Mikiko Letham <mickey.letham@...>
wrote:

> < > Nobunaga to ill-behaved
> children in scaring stories, just like we do with
> our children using some
> folklore mythic monster.>>
>
> Eleven years living in Japan and I have never heard
> of this happening. Most
> parents never scare their children into good
> behavior. The few who do will
> often use "tanuki" or something like that to warn
> their kids.
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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While its a minor quibble, you should know there's no "agreeing"
or "disagreeing" about Nobunaga being a Shogun. He wasn't. Only the
Tokugawa and the Ashikaga families had Shoguns during the Sengoku
Jidai, and, even had Nobunaga indeed conquered all of Japan, he
probably never would have been one either (probably a kempaku like
Hideyoshi).


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon
Oddhinsson wrote:

> I tend to agree that Nobunaga was not a Shogun. Not a dictator,

much less a

> unifier. Perhaps the better description to him would be
>
> Terrorist!
>
> Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> São Paulo - SP Brazil
>
> PS: Parents in Japan, still nowaddays, mention Nobunaga to ill-

behaved

> children in scaring stories, just like we do with our children

using some

> folklore mythic monster.
>
>
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> > From: Michael Lorimer
> > Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
> >
> > I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first
> 'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question

itself, surely

> a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are not
> mutually exclusive terms.
> > Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question? When

was Japan

> unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically part

of Japan

> until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and

expeditions into

> the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the

Nansei (SW)

> Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first

decades of the

> Edo-jidai.
> >
> > M.Lorimer
> >
> > "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > kentguy212002 wrote:
> >
> > > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan? steve
> > > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
> >
> > Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was

hardly the

> first
> > "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
> >
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >

Edward Alexanderさんの<002701c41ae8$27ce41a0$4664a8c0@P428>から

>No,Tokugawa and Hideyoshi would never have ended like they did.If Nobunaga
>didn't take all that territory,Hideyoshi would have never been to
>Korea.....and perhaps the Tokugawa dinasty would't have existed....

I agree with this assessment. It is in fact pretty much the orthodox
way to interpret Nobunaga's role. He was the one who broke down the
old barriers. At the same time he put together enough of the pieces
and had built up enough momentum in the unification effort to allow
someone else to succeed should he fail.

At the same time I've always enjoyed wondering if Nobunaga himself
could have carried it off. At times I'm not so sure if he had the
administrative and political skills to consolidate his gains. I'm
left to believe that each of the three men - Nobunaga, Hideyoshi,
Ieyasu - each played the role in the "unification" process that they
were perfectly suited to.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

I guess we will never know if Oda Nobunaga would "probably never" have been Shogun. He installed Ashikaga Yoshiaki, brother of the murdered Shogun Ashikaga Yoshiteru, in 1568, only to depose him in the early 1570s. Therefore between then and the victory of Tokugawa Ieyasu there were no Shogun. He was the leading commander in the country, and controller of the Kinai, who year after year was presented with titles from the court, finally reaching daijo daijin in 1578. Yes he never became Shogun, but equally should Ieyasu have become Shogun? (to follow your line of argument). Both were extremely ambitious, often treacherous, characters from equally obscure regional families, and both raised great opposition in and around the Court during their ascendancies. Why, therefore would Nobunaga "probably never" have been Shogun, when Ieyasu established a disciplined, effective Bakufu?
M.Lorimer

Kyle Segall <klancesegall@...> wrote:
While its a minor quibble, you should know there's no "agreeing"
or "disagreeing" about Nobunaga being a Shogun. He wasn't. Only the
Tokugawa and the Ashikaga families had Shoguns during the Sengoku
Jidai, and, even had Nobunaga indeed conquered all of Japan, he
probably never would have been one either (probably a kempaku like
Hideyoshi).


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon
Oddhinsson wrote:

> I tend to agree that Nobunaga was not a Shogun. Not a dictator,

much less a

> unifier. Perhaps the better description to him would be
>
> Terrorist!
>
> Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> São Paulo - SP Brazil
>
> PS: Parents in Japan, still nowaddays, mention Nobunaga to ill-

behaved

> children in scaring stories, just like we do with our children

using some

> folklore mythic monster.
>
>
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> > From: Michael Lorimer
> > Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
> >
> > I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first
> 'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question

itself, surely

> a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are not
> mutually exclusive terms.
> > Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question? When

was Japan

> unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically part

of Japan

> until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and

expeditions into

> the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the

Nansei (SW)

> Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first

decades of the

> Edo-jidai.
> >
> > M.Lorimer
> >
> > "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > kentguy212002 wrote:
> >
> > > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan? steve
> > > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
> >
> > Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was

hardly the

> first
> > "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
> >
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >

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On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 03:22:02 +0100 (BST), Michael Lorimerさん wrote in message <20040406022202.40519.qmail@...>

>I guess we will never know if Oda Nobunaga would "probably never" have been
>Shogun. He installed Ashikaga Yoshiaki, brother of the murdered Shogun
>Ashikaga Yoshiteru, in 1568, only to depose him in the early 1570s. Therefore
>between then and the victory of Tokugawa Ieyasu there were no Shogun.

A question I can not seem to answer for my self is this: was Yoshiaki
was in fact still the official Shogun until his death in the 1590s
(1592 I believe off the top of my head)? It's said that 1573
represents the end of the Muromachi Bakufu, but I've always noticed
that Yoshiaki is allowed to stay alive. I have not been able to find
out for sure but as far as I can tell the Emperor did not rescind the
office of Shogun. If Yoshiaki still was Shogun even if in name only,
Nobunaga would have had to have waited until at least the 1590s (and
of course it's a requirement that Honnoji didn't end up happening). Or
he would have had to out and out kill Yoshiaki - which I don't think
would have happened.

Another factor is that Nobunaga had set him self up as being a
descendant of the Taira family. There is a common opinion that
there was no way that a Taira was going to be made Shogun instead of s
omeone of the Minamoto (which is why Hideyoshi wanted to be adopted an
d why Ieyasu changed his name). This same sentiment would have
applied to Nobunaga as well.


--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Jay,
That's very true.Tokugawa,Hideyoshi and Nobunaga each played an important part in the unification of Japan.

Edy

----- Original Message -----
From: Oyakata
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 1:51 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 768


Edward Alexanderさんの<002701c41ae8$27ce41a0$4664a8c0@P428>から
>No,Tokugawa and Hideyoshi would never have ended like they did.If Nobunaga
>didn't take all that territory,Hideyoshi would have never been to
>Korea.....and perhaps the Tokugawa dinasty would't have existed....

I agree with this assessment. It is in fact pretty much the orthodox
way to interpret Nobunaga's role. He was the one who broke down the
old barriers. At the same time he put together enough of the pieces
and had built up enough momentum in the unification effort to allow
someone else to succeed should he fail.

At the same time I've always enjoyed wondering if Nobunaga himself
could have carried it off. At times I'm not so sure if he had the
administrative and political skills to consolidate his gains. I'm
left to believe that each of the three men - Nobunaga, Hideyoshi,
Ieyasu - each played the role in the "unification" process that they
were perfectly suited to.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...



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Nobunaga was never particularly interested in titles, just power.
And I don't know what you mean about "should Ieyasu have been
Shogun...". Also, I don't really have an argument to follow. I was
just saying Nobunaga was never Shogun, so there's no "disagreeing"
or "agreeing" about it.
I feel that Nobunaga would not have become Shogun for similiar
reasons Hideyoshi could never have been Shogun. We all tend to
hear "Shogun" and think, aside from the occasional Emperor, that was
the s**t in Medieval Japan. There were plenty of other ways and
titles Nobunaga could have had to become the most powerful man in
Japan... but I don't think he really cared for them. As long as he
was in charge he could be called whatever they wanted to call him.
I'm pretty sure I recall that the court didn't so much
grant "Shogunates" as it was requested of the court, and I doubt
Nobunaga would have bothered. I'm not saying he couldn't have become
the leader of Japan, just not the leader using the particular
title "Shogun".

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Michael Lorimer
wrote:

> I guess we will never know if Oda Nobunaga would "probably never"

have been Shogun. He installed Ashikaga Yoshiaki, brother of the
murdered Shogun Ashikaga Yoshiteru, in 1568, only to depose him in
the early 1570s. Therefore between then and the victory of Tokugawa
Ieyasu there were no Shogun. He was the leading commander in the
country, and controller of the Kinai, who year after year was
presented with titles from the court, finally reaching daijo daijin
in 1578. Yes he never became Shogun, but equally should Ieyasu have
become Shogun? (to follow your line of argument). Both were
extremely ambitious, often treacherous, characters from equally
obscure regional families, and both raised great opposition in and
around the Court during their ascendancies. Why, therefore would
Nobunaga "probably never" have been Shogun, when Ieyasu established
a disciplined, effective Bakufu?

> M.Lorimer
>
> Kyle Segall wrote:
> While its a minor quibble, you should know there's no "agreeing"
> or "disagreeing" about Nobunaga being a Shogun. He wasn't. Only

the

> Tokugawa and the Ashikaga families had Shoguns during the Sengoku
> Jidai, and, even had Nobunaga indeed conquered all of Japan, he
> probably never would have been one either (probably a kempaku like
> Hideyoshi).
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon
> Oddhinsson wrote:
> > I tend to agree that Nobunaga was not a Shogun. Not a dictator,
> much less a
> > unifier. Perhaps the better description to him would be
> >
> > Terrorist!
> >
> > Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> > São Paulo - SP Brazil
> >
> > PS: Parents in Japan, still nowaddays, mention Nobunaga to ill-
> behaved
> > children in scaring stories, just like we do with our children
> using some
> > folklore mythic monster.
> >
> >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:26:01 +0000 (GMT)
> > > From: Michael Lorimer
> > > Subject: Re: oda nobunaga
> > >
> > > I tend to agree, Nobunaga was neither the unifier, or the first
> > 'dictator', he wasn't even shogun. In terms of the question
> itself, surely
> > a leader (anywhere) could be both dictator and unifier, they are

not

> > mutually exclusive terms.
> > > Sprouting from the term 'unifier' though I have a question?

When

> was Japan
> > unified? Considering, Hokkaiko was really only geographically

part

> of Japan
> > until the 18th and 19th Centuries, despite incursions and
> expeditions into
> > the north dating back to the Asuka-jidai, and before; while the
> Nansei (SW)
> > Islands (Okinawa, etc) were not part of Japan until the first
> decades of the
> > Edo-jidai.
> > >
> > > M.Lorimer
> > >
> > > "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > > kentguy212002 wrote:
> > >
> > > > oda nobunaga unifier of japan or first dictator of japan?

steve

> > > > turnbulls book seem to be divided on this anyone got a view
> > >
> > > Frankly, he was neither. He wasn't a total unifier, and he was
> hardly the
> > first
> > > "dictator" -- whatever that may mean in feudal Japanese terms.
> > >
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
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>
> Eleven years living in Japan and I have never heard of this
> happening. Most
> parents never scare their children into good behavior. The few who do
> will
> often use "tanuki" or something like that to warn their kids.

Kamikakushi!

>
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