Oda Nobunaga

Moshi, Moshi!!

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Oguri

Hey fellow members, I just wanted to get some feedback on what you
guys thought of Nobunaga. Was he a great general who got done what
was needed? Or was he a brutal war monger? Did he realize the need
to unify Japan? Or was he just power-hungry?

Personally i think Nobunaga was a great visonary who saw the need,
and had the will, to unify Japan. And although some of his tactics
might have been considered brutal, Mount Hiei for example, in the
long run it presevered life. By committing one big act of violence,
such as Mount Hiei, it sent a message to any other warrior-monks or
samurai clans that might have been thinking of attacking the Oda. It
showed the consequences of messing with the Oda.

I also think that if Nobunaga wasn't betrayed by Akechi Mitsuhide,
he would have been successful in uniting Japan. Which would have
ushered in centuries of peace not seen until 18 years later under
the Tokugawa Shogunate.

Hi there.
I agree with you to a point. But only to a point. If Akechi
Mitsuhide had not intervened, there might have been peace earlier, certainly -- and
the key word is MIGHT, because it might NOT have -- but, come earlier or come
later, the cost of it would have been so much higher, starting with Nobunaga's
order for Akechi to reinforce Toyotomi. I read somewhere -- and I do not
remember where -- that Nobunaga's ultimate goal was to conquer all of Japan and
then replace the Emperor with himself. (Any truth to this, anybody?)
According to the readings I've done, as for Nobunaga himself, he was a
brutal man, one of the two most brutal men alive at the time. (The other was
Tsar Ivan IV of Russia, whose lifespan nearly mirrored that of Nobunaga, the
former barely outliving the latter, Ivan living 1530-1584 to Nobunaga's
1534-1582.) He killed his own brother because of a failed revolt in 1557 (sparing
his then-twice-future brother-in-law Shibata Katsuie), forced a sister (O-ichi)
to divorce Shibata, whom he had forced to MARRY (I believe around the age of
11!!!!!) to solidify an alliance, so he could marry her off to ANOTHER warlord
(Asai Nagamasa) to solidify THAT alliance, killed that brother-in-law when he
backed an (I believe) ages-old ally (the Asakura at Anegawa, 1570), remarried
the sister to her first husband, and rewarded a man (Toyotomi Hideyoshi) who
used dishonorable techniques to climb to his right hand position. He
needlessly had the captives that Akechi had spared to effect a surrender put to death
-- including a mother, which was the motivator that cost Akechi his own
mother, and in effect started the wheels turning which brought Nobunaga to his
seppuku at Honno-ji.
For the good he did, which there was certainly at least some --
including the invention of the sumo dohyo ring and the start of the unification
process -- it was better in my humble estimation that he not be the one to finish
the unification process. It was accomplished much more peacefully with
Hideyoshi and Tokugawa. (BTW, I have my thoughts about that 1591 edict, too, but I
don't want to get into them here.)
Hope this helps. :-D

Later
Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Tim,

If you could clear some things up I would appreciate it. For
instance, why would Nobunaga want to replace the Emperor, if he
conquered Japan he would have gotten the title of Shogun, which
carries all the power. The Emperor is just a figure head. It would
seem to make more sense to be Shogun than to try and over throw the
Emperor, where everyones ultimate loyalty laid.

Second, Nobunaga is betrayed twice by two brothers. In 1556,
Nobuhiro, Nobunaga's elder brother, plotted with the new (and
hostile) lord of Mino, Saitô Yoshitatsu, an act Nobunaga would later
pardon him for. In 1557, Oda Nobuyuki and Shibata Katsuie plot
against Oda Nobunaga in Owari. Though Shibata is spared, Nobuyuki is
killed. Back in feudal japan its more surprising that Nobuhiro was
spared, rather than Nobuyuki being killed.

Thirdly, why trust his sister (O-ichi) to some one who betrayed his
trust (Katsuie) when he could marry her off to Asai Nagamasa to
solitify an allaince (which was a very common practice). Then when
Asai back an enemy of Nobunaga, he became an enemy and by that time
Katsuie had earned back Nobunaga's trust, so why not reunite them?

Forthly, you say Toyotomi Hideyoshi used dishonorable techniques to
climb to his right hand position. I was just wondering if you could
give some examples?

Lastly, you say, "He needlessly had the captives that Akechi had
spared to effect a surrender put to death -- including a mother,
which was the motivator that cost Akechi his own mother."

If you could elaborate on how the death of a mother was
the "motivator that cost Akechi his own mother." I would appreciate
it.

Now I am not saying everything Nobunaga did was morally right. Its
true he used burtal tactics, but when the country has been at war
for 250 years, "death is necessary if you want peace."

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> Hi there.
> I agree with you to a point. But only to a point. If
Akechi
> Mitsuhide had not intervened, there might have been peace earlier,
certainly -- and
> the key word is MIGHT, because it might NOT have -- but, come
earlier or come
> later, the cost of it would have been so much higher, starting
with Nobunaga's
> order for Akechi to reinforce Toyotomi. I read somewhere -- and I
do not
> remember where -- that Nobunaga's ultimate goal was to conquer all
of Japan and
> then replace the Emperor with himself. (Any truth to this,
anybody?)
> According to the readings I've done, as for Nobunaga
himself, he was a
> brutal man, one of the two most brutal men alive at the time.
(The other was
> Tsar Ivan IV of Russia, whose lifespan nearly mirrored that of
Nobunaga, the
> former barely outliving the latter, Ivan living 1530-1584 to
Nobunaga's
> 1534-1582.) He killed his own brother because of a failed revolt
in 1557 (sparing
> his then-twice-future brother-in-law Shibata Katsuie), forced a
sister (O-ichi)
> to divorce Shibata, whom he had forced to MARRY (I believe around
the age of
> 11!!!!!) to solidify an alliance, so he could marry her off to
ANOTHER warlord
> (Asai Nagamasa) to solidify THAT alliance, killed that brother-in-
law when he
> backed an (I believe) ages-old ally (the Asakura at Anegawa,
1570), remarried
> the sister to her first husband, and rewarded a man (Toyotomi
Hideyoshi) who
> used dishonorable techniques to climb to his right hand position.
He
> needlessly had the captives that Akechi had spared to effect a
surrender put to death
> -- including a mother, which was the motivator that cost Akechi
his own
> mother, and in effect started the wheels turning which brought
Nobunaga to his
> seppuku at Honno-ji.
> For the good he did, which there was certainly at least
some --
> including the invention of the sumo dohyo ring and the start of
the unification
> process -- it was better in my humble estimation that he not be
the one to finish
> the unification process. It was accomplished much more peacefully
with
> Hideyoshi and Tokugawa. (BTW, I have my thoughts about that 1591
edict, too, but I
> don't want to get into them here.)
> Hope this helps. :-D
>
> Later
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To those concerned

I agree generally with Masamori Masami's general opinion of Nobunaga, that while certainly not being an enlightened despot, he was hardly the montrous singularity Tim seems he represented. Also, I find Hideyoshi a far more diligent character, and generally devoid of dishonour (despite the mental failings and brutality of the 1590s).
In regard though to what Tim mentioned about the Mother of Akechi Mitsuhide, because he had promised safe passage to the besieged parties, an agreement then overturned by Nobunaga, other retainers took it upon themselves to punish the "liar" Mitsuhide, and in the process killed his mother. There were other factors, such as his excellent poetry, which the lesser poet Nobunaga continuously abused, but the murder of his mother was probably a far more serious cause of the attack on Nobunaga at the Honno-ji.
Michael

Masamori Masami <oni_shogun@...> wrote:
Hey Tim,

If you could clear some things up I would appreciate it. For
instance, why would Nobunaga want to replace the Emperor, if he
conquered Japan he would have gotten the title of Shogun, which
carries all the power. The Emperor is just a figure head. It would
seem to make more sense to be Shogun than to try and over throw the
Emperor, where everyones ultimate loyalty laid.

Second, Nobunaga is betrayed twice by two brothers. In 1556,
Nobuhiro, Nobunaga's elder brother, plotted with the new (and
hostile) lord of Mino, Saitô Yoshitatsu, an act Nobunaga would later
pardon him for. In 1557, Oda Nobuyuki and Shibata Katsuie plot
against Oda Nobunaga in Owari. Though Shibata is spared, Nobuyuki is
killed. Back in feudal japan its more surprising that Nobuhiro was
spared, rather than Nobuyuki being killed.

Thirdly, why trust his sister (O-ichi) to some one who betrayed his
trust (Katsuie) when he could marry her off to Asai Nagamasa to
solitify an allaince (which was a very common practice). Then when
Asai back an enemy of Nobunaga, he became an enemy and by that time
Katsuie had earned back Nobunaga's trust, so why not reunite them?

Forthly, you say Toyotomi Hideyoshi used dishonorable techniques to
climb to his right hand position. I was just wondering if you could
give some examples?

Lastly, you say, "He needlessly had the captives that Akechi had
spared to effect a surrender put to death -- including a mother,
which was the motivator that cost Akechi his own mother."

If you could elaborate on how the death of a mother was
the "motivator that cost Akechi his own mother." I would appreciate
it.

Now I am not saying everything Nobunaga did was morally right. Its
true he used burtal tactics, but when the country has been at war
for 250 years, "death is necessary if you want peace."

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> Hi there.
> I agree with you to a point. But only to a point. If
Akechi
> Mitsuhide had not intervened, there might have been peace earlier,
certainly -- and
> the key word is MIGHT, because it might NOT have -- but, come
earlier or come
> later, the cost of it would have been so much higher, starting
with Nobunaga's
> order for Akechi to reinforce Toyotomi. I read somewhere -- and I
do not
> remember where -- that Nobunaga's ultimate goal was to conquer all
of Japan and
> then replace the Emperor with himself. (Any truth to this,
anybody?)
> According to the readings I've done, as for Nobunaga
himself, he was a
> brutal man, one of the two most brutal men alive at the time.
(The other was
> Tsar Ivan IV of Russia, whose lifespan nearly mirrored that of
Nobunaga, the
> former barely outliving the latter, Ivan living 1530-1584 to
Nobunaga's
> 1534-1582.) He killed his own brother because of a failed revolt
in 1557 (sparing
> his then-twice-future brother-in-law Shibata Katsuie), forced a
sister (O-ichi)
> to divorce Shibata, whom he had forced to MARRY (I believe around
the age of
> 11!!!!!) to solidify an alliance, so he could marry her off to
ANOTHER warlord
> (Asai Nagamasa) to solidify THAT alliance, killed that brother-in-
law when he
> backed an (I believe) ages-old ally (the Asakura at Anegawa,
1570), remarried
> the sister to her first husband, and rewarded a man (Toyotomi
Hideyoshi) who
> used dishonorable techniques to climb to his right hand position.
He
> needlessly had the captives that Akechi had spared to effect a
surrender put to death
> -- including a mother, which was the motivator that cost Akechi
his own
> mother, and in effect started the wheels turning which brought
Nobunaga to his
> seppuku at Honno-ji.
> For the good he did, which there was certainly at least
some --
> including the invention of the sumo dohyo ring and the start of
the unification
> process -- it was better in my humble estimation that he not be
the one to finish
> the unification process. It was accomplished much more peacefully
with
> Hideyoshi and Tokugawa. (BTW, I have my thoughts about that 1591
edict, too, but I
> don't want to get into them here.)
> Hope this helps. :-D
>
> Later
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi there.
I will deal with much of the rest of my answer to this a bit later.
(Just how things are working out right now.) But I do want to answer a couple
things right now.
The Shogun question: If memory serves me correctly, at one point,
Emperor Ogimachi offered Nobunaga the Shogunate. And he turned it down. It seems
to me that, as long as anybody else over him lived, including a figurehead
emperor, he would never be satisfied. Why have a figurehead, when he himself
could be BOTH the Emperor (titular ruler) AND the Shogun (actual ruler)? If
Shogun Ashikaga Yoshitatsu was swept aside as so much chattel, what would stop
Oda from doing the same to the Emperor himself and unifying the two offices
under himself? (Granted, this was essentially done in reverse during the Meiji
Restoration in the late 1860s. But if memory serves me correctly, it was the
Emperor who directly challenged the Shogun in that one.)
The Akechi question: The incident I referred to was the 1577 Tamba
seige and the fall of the Hatano clan. Akechi achieved a bloodless surrender,
making it unnecessary for Oda to have them put to death. That was the start of
it. The remaining followers -- most likely the clan's retainers -- that
somehow survived the Oda fist, it appears, blamed Akechi for the deaths in that
incident, although it was not his fault. Among the deaths was a mother, as the
story goes, and the retainers claimed Akechi's mother in vengeance for it.
This may have been the last straw. The line from the death of his (Akechi's)
mother to the feet of Oda Nobunaga was, for Mitsuhide, a very short line. His
own mother was killed in vengeance by the Hatano retainers because Oda killed
those whom Akechi had said would not be, the Hatano retainers holding Akechi
Mitsuhide responsible for the lives that Nobunaga took. Granted, this story may
or may not be true, but it's just wacky enough to BE true.
In several readings I have done, although Akechi was one of Oda's
"inner circle generals", it seems that Nobunaga, though he treated his retainers
with not the greatest of respect, took special pleasure in the humiliation of
this one general. It is my estimation that, as the saying goes, enough became
too much, and when Oda made it personal -- even in a round-about way, and
regardless of the status of women, the killing of one's mother makes it VERY
personal -- that was all Akechi needed.
It is incidents like Tamba -- if completely true -- that make me
really wonder if Oda Nobunaga was not just in it for unification or power, but the
enjoyment of the brutality. (Owari isn't the biggest of provinces, after all,
and one can only get so much brutality there.)
For now, that's bout it. I'll get to the others in the next few days.
:-) Hope this clears some things up.

Later
Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dose anybody know what style of swordsmanship Oda Nobunaga used??
-Martin Jr

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "MNcoffey@f..."
wrote:

>
> Dose anybody know what style of swordsmanship Oda Nobunaga used??
> -Martin Jr
>

I think Nobunaga just used guns, he had swords but no sword style
other then the basic stuff.

Thanks, I just could not find anything on his sword style, now I know
why.Thanks again.-Martin Jr.
















Quoting Ijin Mibu <ijinmibu@...>:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "MNcoffey@f..."
> wrote:
>>
>> Dose anybody know what style of swordsmanship Oda Nobunaga used??
>> -Martin Jr
>>
> I think Nobunaga just used guns, he had swords but no sword style
> other then the basic stuff.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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