Obata Kagenori &....

Konnichi wa,
I'm trying to put together a project that includes a discussion of
Obata(s) Kagenori, Toramori, Masamori, Nobusada, & Nobushige, but I'm
having a difficult time finding information and untangling some
features of how (or if) they are related. In sum, I have the
following questions:

1). Are they all from the same (general) lineage? Any details
available?
2). More specifically, how are Toramori, Masamori, and Kagenori
related? I have found conflicting info. on this.
3). Does anyone happen to know anything about them and their
activities beyond dates of birth/death and other surface info.? Or,
are there any decent sources in English (beyond Samurai Archives--
I've farmed as much as I can from there!) where I might find
something a bit more in-depth?

Thanks much in advance for any assistance and/or clues!

Marlene Harris

This is some of what I have, let me know if you want me to clarify
anything, or if you have other questions:

According to the 'Sengoku Jinmei Jiten', Obata Masamori was the son
of Obata Toramori. Obata Nobusada was the son of Obata Shigesada.
Obata Kagenori was the son of Obata Masamori.

OBATA Toramori 1505?-1561
Toramori first served Takeda Nobutora, from whom he was granted the
use of 'tora' in his name. He fought in many battles for Takeda
Shingen under the leadership of Baba Nobufusa and was said to have
been wounded no fewer then forty times over the course of career,
which came to an end when he died of illness in June 1561 at Kaizu
Castle.

OBATA Masamori 1534-1582
Masamori was the son of Obata Toranori and a noted general of Takeda
Shingen. For some time he acted as Kosaka Masanobu's second in
command at Kaizu Castle in northern Shinano Province. He was wounded
at the Battle of Nagashino and eventually died of illness. He was
married to a daughter of Hara Toratane.

OBATA Nobusada 1540-1592
Nobusada joined the Takeda around 1560 after fleeing his lands in
Kôzuke Province. He had his old fief restored to him by Shingen the
following year and proved to be one of Shingen's most dependable
generals. He led large forces at the Battles of Mimasetoge and
Mikatagahara and was very useful in the Takeda's Kôzuke campaigns. He
commanded somewhere around 500 men at the Battle of Nagashino for
Takeda Katsuyori. When the Takeda fell in 1582, he joined first
Takigawa Kazumasa and then the Hôjô, finally ending up with Sanada
Masayuki (1590).

OBATA Kagenori 1570-1644
Kagenori became a Tokugawa retainer following the fall of the Takeda
and was made a page to Tokugawa Hidetada. He is reputed to have been
sent to the Osaka garrison as a spy by the Tokugawa. Kagenori is
attributed with writing at least part (if not most) of the Koyo
Gunkan, the well-known history of the Takeda of Kai in the 16th
Century (which is sometimes also attributed to Kosaka Masanobu).



--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "jeff_l_harris"
wrote:

> Konnichi wa,
> I'm trying to put together a project that includes a discussion

of

> Obata(s) Kagenori, Toramori, Masamori, Nobusada, & Nobushige, but

I'm

> having a difficult time finding information and untangling some
> features of how (or if) they are related. In sum, I have the
> following questions:
>
> 1). Are they all from the same (general) lineage? Any details
> available?
> 2). More specifically, how are Toramori, Masamori, and Kagenori
> related? I have found conflicting info. on this.
> 3). Does anyone happen to know anything about them and their
> activities beyond dates of birth/death and other surface info.? Or,
> are there any decent sources in English (beyond Samurai Archives--
> I've farmed as much as I can from there!) where I might find
> something a bit more in-depth?
>
> Thanks much in advance for any assistance and/or clues!
>
> Marlene Harris

An ooki domo arigato gozaimashita to you, "Kitsuno"! Your
response went a great distance in clearing up some date and
relationship conflicts I had in my notes.

> This is some of what I have, let me know if you want me to clarify
> anything, or if you have other questions

If I may, just a couple/3:

First, what is the 'Sengoku Jinmei Jiten'--from the context, it's a
historical record, but to be able note a bit more detail about it
would be very helpful (year written, ect.).

Second, you noted that Obata Nobusada was the son of O. Shigesada--
once source I have listed "O. Norishige" as Nobusada's father.
Are "Shigesada" and "Norishige" the same person? Also, are there any
dates (b/d) for him? (BTW, I noted I erroneously wrote "Nobushige" in
my earlier post--sumimasen!).

Third, and last, are the Toramori et.al. and Shigesada/Nobusada lines
related at all? If so, how?

Thanks again for the past assist, and in advance for any further
insights! This is very helpful!
Marlene Harris

The 'Sengoku Jinmei Jiten' is a biographical dictionary of Sengoku
Samurai that I picked up in kyoto. I wouldn't call it the 'be all,
end all' of biographies, because there are about 8000 names in there,
and so it only dedicates from 1 or 2 lines to a paragraph to each one.
First edition 1990 (I have the 12th edition, 2000) by Abe Takeshi.

As for the Obata Norishige / Obata Nobusada relation, I'm not sure
how they are related. They were both retainers of the Takeda,
however unless I'm missing something, they were not father and son.
It looks like Norishige joined the takeda in 1560, and was killed at
Nagashino.

This is all the relationships I can find in the Obata:

Toramori (D.1561)
Sons:
1.Mitsumori (fled to Echigo after the 1582 fall of the Takeda)
2.Masamori (1538-1582)
==Kagenori (1572-1661)


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "jeff_l_harris"
wrote:

> An ooki domo arigato gozaimashita to you, "Kitsuno"! Your
> response went a great distance in clearing up some date and
> relationship conflicts I had in my notes.
>
> > This is some of what I have, let me know if you want me to

clarify

> > anything, or if you have other questions
>
> If I may, just a couple/3:
>
> First, what is the 'Sengoku Jinmei Jiten'--from the context, it's a
> historical record, but to be able note a bit more detail about it
> would be very helpful (year written, ect.).
>
> Second, you noted that Obata Nobusada was the son of O. Shigesada--
> once source I have listed "O. Norishige" as Nobusada's father.
> Are "Shigesada" and "Norishige" the same person? Also, are there

any

> dates (b/d) for him? (BTW, I noted I erroneously wrote "Nobushige"

in

> my earlier post--sumimasen!).
>
> Third, and last, are the Toramori et.al. and Shigesada/Nobusada

lines

> related at all? If so, how?
>
> Thanks again for the past assist, and in advance for any further
> insights! This is very helpful!
> Marlene Harris

Once again, many thanks for the information and clarifications!
You have been extremely helpful!

One additional comment on the following:

> As for the Obata Norishige / Obata Nobusada relation, I'm not sure
> how they are related. They were both retainers of the Takeda,
> however unless I'm missing something, they were not father and son.
> It looks like Norishige joined the takeda in 1560, and was killed
> at Nagashino.

Under the mini-bio on Obata Nobusada on the Samurai Archives, it
noted something to the effect that "Nobusada's father, Norishige, was
killed at Nagashino." I know that warriors had a penchant for
changing names when life events inspired them and thought that
perhaps "Norishige" and "Shigesada' might be the same person.
However, some of my more central questions have been answered,
so I guess I can merely note what's reported from both sources.
I guess that any relationship between the Toramori, et. al. line and
the Nobusada line can likewise be reported as unknowns.
Domo arigato gozaimashita!
Marlene

I'll have to look further, and check other sources. As the person who put
together that bio is offline and currently incommunicado, I can't verify where he
got that info. So I'll see what else, if anything, I can find.

(anyone else here in the know can FEEL FREE to jump in at any time...!)

:)

>>>>Under the mini-bio on Obata Nobusada on the Samurai Archives, it

noted something to the effect that "Nobusada's father, Norishige, was
killed at Nagashino." I know that warriors had a penchant for
changing names when life events inspired them and thought that
perhaps "Norishige" and "Shigesada' might be the same person.
However, some of my more central questions have been answered,
so I guess I can merely note what's reported from both sources.
I guess that any relationship between the Toramori, et. al. line and
the Nobusada line can likewise be reported as unknowns.
Domo arigato gozaimashita!
Marlene

Re: Nobusada/Norishige:

> I'll have to look further, and check other sources. As the person
> who put together that bio is offline and currently incommunicado, I
> can't verify where he got that info. So I'll see what else, if
> anything, I can find.

If that's possible, that would be great! As prevoiously noted, I can
simply report the relationship between those two individuals (and the
two Obata lines) as "suspect, but unconfirmed". However, it would
really be a treat to be able to settle it all a bit more
definitively.

Thanks for your efforts on this--I'll hold off on the wrap-up of my
project for a bit in case any more clues emerge.
Arigato!

Marlene