battle between swords and guns

Group,
I lived in Japan for 3 years and I took many Japanese history
classes. I distinctly remember learning of a battle between samurai
using swords and samurai/soldiers using guns. The point was clear
that the army using guns won the battle. Does anyone know the name
of this battle? I think it is the basis and thus loosely related to
the Last Samurai movie.

Chuck

First off 007,
Shame on you for not paying attention in class! A the battle of
Toba--Fushimi ,which happened by accident, the Shinsen-gumi lead the
Tokugawa forces. They fought a bitter argument to be first in line
cause they thought so highly of themselves. Carrying sword and spear
they the first to encounter the Satsuma-Choshu troops and the first to
be cut down. Their retreat prevented the western trained Tokugawa
troops behind them to organize properly thus the advantage was given to
the loyalist army with the first shots. After this I beleive it was
Hijikata who said "swords are useless, the age of the gun is here.." or
something to that effect.
Surely though you are thinking of Tabaruzaka, 17 days of slaughter on
the outskirts of Kumamoto. In a small pass in the hills, covered by
thick bamboo grove, in the pouring rain (it rained for 15 days!) the
"samurai" army from Satsuma repeatedly attacked and repelled the
Government troops. Their guns were nearly useles in the constant
downpour, they couldn't maneuver as they had been trained and they had
no covering artillery.
On the 16th day the farmers were replaced by Aizu samurai, who carried
a burning hatred for Satsuma, artillery was finally in place nearby on
a commanding hilltop and the rain stopped. It was all she wrote after
that...
-t

Kosu ni kosarenu Tabaruzaka!!

I'm going to go see the movie today, but I cant remember the exact
name. I think it was soemthing like the Saigo or Meji Rebellion,
since those were the two involoved. It was in 1877 when the new
imperial geovernment was taking the samurai's swords from them. A
bunch of samurai rebelled, but were defeated rather easily with the
imperial armies guns.

One other one you might be thinking of happened earlier on, when the
country was being unified. The Hogen Rebellion, a samurai rebellion
against the imperial succession.

Those are the two I remember with guns vs. swords.

I hope Tom Cruise dies at the end.

It was the Satsuma Rebellion (aka the Last Samurai Rebellion).

Contrary to the message below, the Samurai were not defeated easily. The
Imperial forces outnumbered them approximately 4:1 and yet it took them about 7
months to defeat the Samurai. Casualties were approximately 10,000 for each
side.

That means that even though the Samurai were outnumbered 4:1 that they
inflicted equal casualties. If that constitutes being easily defeated than I hope I
never see a tough campaign. :)

Bob Burke


In a message dated 12/13/03 11:03:10 AM, mitsurugi_guy@... writes:

<< I'm going to go see the movie today, but I cant remember the exact

name. I think it was soemthing like the Saigo or Meji Rebellion,

since those were the two involoved. It was in 1877 when the new

imperial geovernment was taking the samurai's swords from them. A

bunch of samurai rebelled, but were defeated rather easily with the

imperial armies guns.


One other one you might be thinking of happened earlier on, when the

country was being unified. The Hogen Rebellion, a samurai rebellion

against the imperial succession.


Those are the two I remember with guns vs. swords.


I hope Tom Cruise dies at the end.

>>

This is great stuff. Thank you. I'd like to know what the source for this
information is? By any chance, is it in English?

Does the source provide an Order of Battle for either side?

Bob Burke

In a message dated 12/13/03 10:12:29 AM, junkmail@... writes:

<< First off 007,
Shame on you for not paying attention in class! A the battle of
Toba--Fushimi ,which happened by accident, the Shinsen-gumi lead the
Tokugawa forces. They fought a bitter argument to be first in line
cause they thought so highly of themselves. Carrying sword and spear
they the first to encounter the Satsuma-Choshu troops and the first to
be cut down. Their retreat prevented the western trained Tokugawa
troops behind them to organize properly thus the advantage was given to
the loyalist army with the first shots. After this I beleive it was
Hijikata who said "swords are useless, the age of the gun is here.." or
something to that effect.
Surely though you are thinking of Tabaruzaka, 17 days of slaughter on
the outskirts of Kumamoto. In a small pass in the hills, covered by
thick bamboo grove, in the pouring rain (it rained for 15 days!) the
"samurai" army from Satsuma repeatedly attacked and repelled the
Government troops. Their guns were nearly useles in the constant
downpour, they couldn't maneuver as they had been trained and they had
no covering artillery.
On the 16th day the farmers were replaced by Aizu samurai, who carried
a burning hatred for Satsuma, artillery was finally in place nearby on
a commanding hilltop and the rain stopped. It was all she wrote after
that...
-t

Kosu ni kosarenu Tabaruzaka!! >>

Wow, some good history! Do you happen to have any information on the
first Choshu expedition? For example, the numbers on each sides,
what hans participated, any tactics, other important information...

All the books ive looked at and websites ive read just keep
saying "and there was a first choshu expedition, which succeeded,
aww..., and then there was a second, which failed, yay..."

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Tom Helm
wrote:

> First off 007,
> Shame on you for not paying attention in class! A the battle

of

> Toba--Fushimi ,which happened by accident, the Shinsen-gumi lead

the

> Tokugawa forces. They fought a bitter argument to be first in line
> cause they thought so highly of themselves. Carrying sword and

spear

> they the first to encounter the Satsuma-Choshu troops and the

first to

> be cut down. Their retreat prevented the western trained Tokugawa
> troops behind them to organize properly thus the advantage was

given to

> the loyalist army with the first shots. After this I beleive it

was

> Hijikata who said "swords are useless, the age of the gun is

here.." or

> something to that effect.
> Surely though you are thinking of Tabaruzaka, 17 days of

slaughter on

> the outskirts of Kumamoto. In a small pass in the hills, covered

by

> thick bamboo grove, in the pouring rain (it rained for 15 days!)

the

> "samurai" army from Satsuma repeatedly attacked and repelled the
> Government troops. Their guns were nearly useles in the constant
> downpour, they couldn't maneuver as they had been trained and they

had

> no covering artillery.
> On the 16th day the farmers were replaced by Aizu samurai,

who carried

> a burning hatred for Satsuma, artillery was finally in place

nearby on

> a commanding hilltop and the rain stopped. It was all she wrote

after

> that...
> -t
>
> Kosu ni kosarenu Tabaruzaka!!