Re: Samurai History----resp ProfMurf: -------Bryant vs Turnbull

Hi,

I agree that Varley's is a good an interesting monograph, but I think it
should be noted that the full title is _Warriors of Japan as Portrayed in
the War Tales_ and as such should be recommended with that in mind. I
would also like to put in a plug for the work of Karl Friday, specifically
_Hired Swords: The Rise of Private Warrior Power in Japan_. One caveat
being that this book as well as the book book by William Wayne Farris deal
primarily with pre-Kamakura period developments.

-Shannon

----Original Message Follows----
From: Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...>

I think Paul Varley's "Warriors of Japan" and Wayne Ferris "Heavenly
Warriors" are two other crucial works. "Japan Before Tokugawa" (edited
by Hall) has a lot of great stuff as well. Of course, it all depends on
what aspect of the samurai history one is interested in.
Cepo, Honolulu

On Nov 20, 2003, at 7:39 AM, murphymurphyjohn@... wrote:

> Welcome aboard to samurai history. The best books as introduction are
> those
> by our Anthony Bryant at Indiana University, clearly written and
> factual.�
> Dr. Turnbull has a high reputation in the field, but I deem only so
> because,
> until the advent of Tony B. he was the only one who wrote in the field
> in
> English. I have found Turnbull to be distressingly contradictory
> about the Battle
> of Nagashino, in that an important raid that Oda Nobunaga launched
> against
> Takeda Katsuyori Turnbull said in one book the raid was launched the
> night
> before the battle. In another book, he said it was the morning of the
> battle.
> Also, his research on Japanese castle sieges seems way out of line
> with the
> contemporary battle screens which depicted such sieges! Therefore, go
> by Bryant
> in your research, and keep Turnbull for the supply train. Regards,
> Prof
> Murphy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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On Nov 24, 2003, at 6:16 PM, Parker S. Lyle wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I agree that Varley's is a good an interesting monograph, but I think
> it
> should be noted that the full title is _Warriors of Japan as Portrayed
> in
> the War Tales_ and as such should be recommended with that in mind. 
> [cut] -Shannon
>

You're right, but I believe that Dr.Varley made a wonderful work in
using the war-tales to point out to what the real character of the
Japanese warriors was. He is now writing a book on the Sengoku
Daimyo--I have read a chapter, and it's indeed awesome.
Bye, cepo

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cesare said:
You're right, but I believe that Dr.Varley made a wonderful work in
using the war-tales to point out to what the real character of the
Japanese warriors was. He is now writing a book on the Sengoku
Daimyo--I have read a chapter, and it's indeed awesome.
Bye, cepo

If you havent done so already, you should read Kenneth Butler's works on
the Heike Monogatari, specifically "The Heike Monogatari and the Japanese
Warrior Ethic" In Harvard Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 29 (1969), pp.
93-108.

In it, Butler makes a good case about the origins of the descriptions of
warriors in the Heike coming from the oral performers of the tale -- the
repetition a tool for both effect and ease of memorization. Even a
cursory reading of the text will provide one will the sense that there is
something formulaic to the descriptions of both the warriors' appearance
and many of the encounters.

Having personally not read them I cannot speak for the other war tales, but
my understanding is that most (if not all) of them, too, were oral
presentations and meant as entertainment. Although I look forward to
reading Varley's work, I remain skeptical that any book can claim that that
represented in the war tales can be taken to be as you say "what the real
character of the Japanese warriors was". More likely the tales represent
the way in which the warriors wanted the other strata of society to view
them, or simply an aggrandizement for dramatic effect in the same way that
we see now police "buddy movies" in which the characters are larger than
life, possess a moral rectitude that defies the corrupt system surrounding
them, etc.

We must remember that these are monogatari, "tales", and not meant to be
taken as historically accurate treatises. Had that been their purpose they
would have been named "ki" or "kagami."

Cheers,

Shannon


S. Lyle Parker
Ph.D Candidate
Philosophy Department
Gakushuin University

mailto: rntihg@...
phone mailto: eroga@...

mobile (from US): (011 81)90-6184-2565
mobile : 090-6184-2565



----Original Message Follows----
From: Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...>
Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re:Samurai History----resp ProfMurf:
-------Bryant vs Turnbull
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:04:54 -1000
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On Nov 24, 2003, at 6:16 PM, Parker S. Lyle wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I agree that Varley's is a good an interesting monograph, but I think
> it
> should be noted that the full title is _Warriors of Japan as Portrayed
> in
> the War Tales_ and as such should be recommended with that in mind.?
> [cut] -Shannon
>
You're right, but I believe that Dr.Varley made a wonderful work in
using the war-tales to point out to what the real character of the
Japanese warriors was. He is now writing a book on the Sengoku
Daimyo--I have read a chapter, and it's indeed awesome.
Bye, cepo

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_________________________________________________________________
あなたのPCを守るために定期的なセキュリティ対策を。マイクロソフト セキュリ
ティ情報センター http://www.microsoft.com/japan/protect/hm.asp

Well glad to know someone else on this egroup is in Japan too. I'm in the
Osaka area.

"He is now writing a book on the Sengoku
Daimyo--I have read a chapter, and it's indeed awesome."

That's awesome news to me. I have read several of his works (Japanese
Culture, The Onin War, and Warriors of Japan) and this Sengoku book looks
interesting. Could you tell us a bit more? What exactly is the content and
theme? When might it be available?

Indeed, Shannon, I did not word well my sentence very well... :oO ---
Sorry.
Be them Monogatari or Kagami, they would always show only a part of the
(hi)story. What I meant to say is basically what you underlined:
Varley's book is a great book on the characterization of the Samurai,
as it emerges from their wartales. I am sure you'd like it, while I'll
make sure I'll check out Butler - as soon as I am done with the
semester!
Bye, and thanks
Cepo, Honolulu

On Nov 28, 2003, at 10:31 PM, Parker S. Lyle wrote:

> Cesare said:
> You're right, but I believe that Dr.Varley made a wonderful work in
> using the war-tales to point out to what the real character of the
> Japanese warriors was. He is now writing a book on the Sengoku
> Daimyo--I have read a chapter, and it's indeed awesome.
> Bye, cepo
>
> If you havent done so already, you should read Kenneth Butler's works
> on
> the Heike Monogatari, specifically "The Heike Monogatari and the
> Japanese
> Warrior Ethic" In Harvard Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 29 (1969), pp.
> 93-108.
>
> In it, Butler makes a good case about the origins of the descriptions
> of
> warriors in the Heike coming from the oral performers of the tale --
> the
> repetition a tool for both effect and ease of memorization. Even a
> cursory reading of the text will provide one will the sense that there
> is
> something formulaic to the descriptions of both the warriors'
> appearance
> and many of the encounters.
>
> Having personally not read them I cannot speak for the other war
> tales, but
> my understanding is that most (if not all) of them, too, were oral
> presentations and meant as entertainment. Although I look forward to
> reading Varley's work, I remain skeptical that any book can claim that
> that
> represented in the war tales can be taken to be as you say "what the
> real
> character of the Japanese warriors was". More likely the tales
> represent
> the way in which the warriors wanted the other strata of society to
> view
> them, or simply an aggrandizement for dramatic effect in the same way
> that
> we see now police "buddy movies" in which the characters are larger
> than
> life, possess a moral rectitude that defies the corrupt system
> surrounding
> them, etc.
>
> We must remember that these are monogatari, "tales", and not meant to
> be
> taken as historically accurate treatises. Had that been their purpose
> they
> would have been named "ki" or "kagami."
>
> Cheers,
>
> Shannon
>
>
> S. Lyle Parker
> Ph.D Candidate
> Philosophy Department
> Gakushuin University
>
> mailto: rntihg@...
> phone mailto: eroga@...
>
> mobile (from US): (011 81)90-6184-2565
> mobile : 090-6184-2565
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...>
> Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re:Samurai History----resp ProfMurf:
> -------Bryant vs Turnbull
> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:04:54 -1000
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> Nov
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> On Nov 24, 2003, at 6:16 PM, Parker S. Lyle wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I agree that Varley's is a good an interesting monograph, but I think
> > it
> > should be noted that the full title is _Warriors of Japan as
> Portrayed
> > in
> > the War Tales_ and as such should be recommended with that in mind.?
> > [cut] -Shannon
> >
> You're right, but I believe that Dr.Varley made a wonderful work in
> using the war-tales to point out to what the real character of the
> Japanese warriors was. He is now writing a book on the Sengoku
> Daimyo--I have read a chapter, and it's indeed awesome.
> Bye, cepo
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Nov 29, 2003, at 5:42 AM, William&Mikiko Letham wrote:

> "He is now writing a book on the Sengoku
> Daimyo--I have read a chapter, and it's indeed awesome."
>
> That's awesome news to me. I have read several of his works (Japanese
> Culture, The Onin War, and Warriors of Japan) and this Sengoku book
> looks
> interesting. Could you tell us a bit more? What exactly is the content
> and
> theme? When might it be available?

Since it might be Varley's last book (the man is 73!!), I think he
hopes to write the "ultimate" academic treaty on the Sengoku years. I
think it's going to go all the way, at least till the 1580s, since he
has been researching intensively on Nobunaga as well. He is retiring
from teaching in May 2004 (sigh), therefore he'll have much more time
to write. I suppose it will be out in 2005.
Cheers,
cepo



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

> Since it might be Varley's last book (the man is 73!!), I think he
> hopes to write the "ultimate" academic treaty on the Sengoku years. I
> think it's going to go all the way, at least till the 1580s, since he
> has been researching intensively on Nobunaga as well. He is retiring
> from teaching in May 2004 (sigh), therefore he'll have much more time
> to write. I suppose it will be out in 2005.
> Cheers,
> cepo

In which case I'm sure we would all like to wish Dr. Varley an extremely
long, healthy and productive retirement!!!
Michael

William,

Things have been very interesting on the list of late. I have come to look
forward to reading the exhanges (diatribes and so forth) that go back and
forth. Though, I must admit, that I dont read all of the posts.

I, as you probably guessed, am living in Western Tokyo and will be here for
the next few years or so. I dont get to Kansai very often, but if I am
heading your way perhaps we could get together for coffee or a bottle of
fermented barley and hops.

Cheers,

Shannon


S. Lyle Parker
Ph.D Candidate
Philosophy Department
Gakushuin University

mailto: rntihg@...
phone mailto: eroga@...

mobile (from US): (011 81)90-6184-2565
mobile : 090-6184-2565

_________________________________________________________________
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"if I am heading your way perhaps we could get together for coffee or a
bottle of fermented barley and hops."

I would be honored, but we should make that Takoyaki.