Re: TACHI and tai chi

Lord Wilson raises, as is usual, an interesting point. However, on the
surface, it appears that the samurai long sword, or tachi, seems to be
unrelated to tai chi, or more properly t'ai chi ch'uan. T'ai chi is mentioned
historically in the T'ang Dynasty (618---960AD), although is thought to be much older
in China. For more on its origins, consult Angus Clark, The Complete
Illustrated Guide to Ta'i Chi (2000). Regarding the tachi, studying pictorial
sources, it appears few riders used it in combat. This is understandable. Riding
a horse, keeping control of your mount is most important; in combat, your
horse is your best ally. Using a sword that seems to have required both hands
would have been hazardous indeed--for what would you use to control the
reins? Prof Murphy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tachi wasn't originally intended to be used with both hands. If you see
at the Tsuka of early curved Tachi (and not only) you'll find it
relatively shorter than that we find on Katana. And even with this
consideration, think that Samurai *were* able to control the horse
without hands. Their main weapon for centuries was the bow.
Non-prof Tsubame.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: murphymurphyjohn@... [mailto:murphymurphyjohn@...]
Inviato: giovedì 20 novembre 2003 19.11
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] TACHI and tai chi

Lord Wilson raises, as is usual, an interesting point. However, on
the
surface, it appears that the samurai long sword, or tachi, seems to be

unrelated to tai chi, or more properly t'ai chi ch'uan. T'ai chi is
mentioned
historically in the T'ang Dynasty (618---960AD), although is thought to
be much older
in China. For more on its origins, consult Angus Clark, The Complete
Illustrated Guide to Ta'i Chi (2000). Regarding the tachi, studying
pictorial
sources, it appears few riders used it in combat. This is
understandable. Riding
a horse, keeping control of your mount is most important; in combat,
your
horse is your best ally. Using a sword that seems to have required both
hands
would have been hazardous indeed--for what would you use to control the
reins? Prof Murphy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
---
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

That's great, but has nothing to do with the question:
Tai chi chuan and the tachi have NOTHING to do with
each other--there is no linguistic or martial link
between them.

Nate

--- murphymurphyjohn@... wrote:

> Lord Wilson raises, as is usual, an interesting
> point. However, on the
> surface, it appears that the samurai long sword, or
> tachi, seems to be
> unrelated to tai chi, or more properly t'ai chi
> ch'uan. T'ai chi is mentioned
> historically in the T'ang Dynasty (618---960AD),
> although is thought to be much older
> in China. For more on its origins, consult Angus
> Clark, The Complete
> Illustrated Guide to Ta'i Chi (2000). Regarding the
> tachi, studying pictorial
> sources, it appears few riders used it in combat.
> This is understandable. Riding
> a horse, keeping control of your mount is most
> important; in combat, your
> horse is your best ally. Using a sword that seems
> to have required both hands
> would have been hazardous indeed--for what would you
> use to control the
> reins? Prof Murphy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/

Prof. Murphy-
I beg to differ, tachi mountings of the Kamakura period would seem to
support a single-handed approach. However I agree that the bow was the
prime weapon of choice.
-t

I knew there was no martial connection whatsoever between the two.. but I did wonder about the linguistics.. I dont speak Japanese (yet) but I had hear the suffix -chi in relation to many swords such as tai CHI, taCHI, nodaCHI and odaCHI.. so that got me to wondering about the linguistic connection.. Thanx for all y'alls input..

Wilson


____________________________________________________________
Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail!
http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Probably my english was wrong. I meant that all tachi were intended to
be used with one hand only, from horseback, even it could be that once
dismounted the Samurai should have the possibility to handle them with
both hands. To stroke with both hands against a target on your side and
lower than you is rather difficult and probably senseless, worst if on
the left side !
But Yumi first and then Yari relegated the Tachi to a (relatively)
secondary role in horseback fighting. The assertion you made about the
control of horse is right when we speak about sword/sword or
cavalry/infantry close combat fight, but a good control could be made
also without hands on bridles when shooting arrows or fighting with
Yari.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Tom Helm [mailto:junkmail@...]
Inviato: venerdì 21 novembre 2003 4.44
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] TACHI and tai chi

Prof. Murphy-
I beg to differ, tachi mountings of the Kamakura period would seem to
support a single-handed approach. However I agree that the bow was the
prime weapon of choice.
-t



Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
---
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Josh-
Not sure anyone responded to this. The "chi" is not the same Chi you
are thinking of. Chinese and Japanese are based on pictographs; kanji.
They may have different "readings" but usually maintain very specific
meanings thus the character for energy, vitality (KI) can also be read
as chi. Or is it the other way round? Any way I learned the Japanese
readings which are in the end based on Chinese ones.
The character for tachi is usually but not always two characters which
are read O,Dai (big) and To,Katana(sword) seperately but "tachi" when
in compound. The tachi in the words Odachi, Nodachi, itodachi and
kenukigatatachi is all one word one idea with no emphasis on "chi."
Seperate the chi and it loses meaning. Don't feel I'm trouncing on you
everytime I ask my Japanese friends questions like this I get the same
lecture...
-t

I DO speak Japanese and a little bit of Mandarin.
There is no connection.

Nate

--- Josh Wilson <lordwilson@...> wrote:

> I knew there was no martial connection whatsoever
> between the two.. but I did wonder about the
> linguistics.. I dont speak Japanese (yet) but I had
> hear the suffix -chi in relation to many swords such
> as tai CHI, taCHI, nodaCHI and odaCHI.. so that got
> me to wondering about the linguistic connection..
> Thanx for all y'alls input..
>
> Wilson
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________

> Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail
> ... Get Lycos Mail!
> http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/

Josh Wilson wrote:

>
> I knew there was no martial connection whatsoever between the two.. but I did wonder about the linguistics.. I dont speak Japanese (yet) but I had hear the suffix -chi in relation to many swords such as tai CHI, taCHI, nodaCHI and odaCHI.. so that got me to wondering about the linguistic connection.. Thanx for all y'alls input..

There is no connection.

The "chi" in "tai chi" is the "energy" as in "ki" (Japanese) or "chi"
(Mandarin).


Tony

Tom Helm wrote:

> The character for tachi is usually but not always two characters which
> are read O,Dai (big) and To,Katana(sword) seperately but "tachi" when
> in compound.

Close. The first kanji is "futo(i)" (large, fat) not "(kii)" (big).

There is, in fact, no clear vocal connection between "tachi" the word
and the two kanji used to spell the word; in essence, the kanji seem to
be applied to an older Japanese word for meaning, rather than for
pronunciation.

The only time you see the "dai/kii" kanji first is when it's read
"dait", which is just another word for katana, typically.

Tony

You are correct as always my bad...
-t