Re: Kawanakajima-----historically modern?

With the reliance on firearms by Kenshin and Takeda, I believe that
Kawanakajima ought to be considered a Renaissance era battle. Indeed, I would submit
that, although a middle point in the Age of the Country at War, the
introduction at Tanegashima in 1543 of Portuguese firearms ought to be considered the
beginning of Modern War in Japan, as the large use of cannon in Italy in 1494
by the French is often considered the beginning of the epoch of modern war in
Europe. I know Chinese firearms were there from approximately 1511 [pace
Turnbull], but they were not nearly as sophisticated as the Portuguese, and the
large contracts vetted for Oda Nobunaga after their introduction seems to bear
out my point. I hope Tony Bryant has some thoughts he can share here?
Regards, Profmurf


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Again, I'm a little confused--you use the term
"renaissance".

The Renaissance took place in Europe. How exactly does
the term relate to Japan? I'm used to discussing
Japanese history in terms of Jidai (muromachi,
Sengoku, Azuchi-Momoyama, Tokugawa, whatever) or,
somewhat less familiar, by "Chusei", "Kinsei", etc.

Where does "renaissance" fall in this?

Nate


--- murphymurphyjohn@... wrote:

> With the reliance on firearms by Kenshin and Takeda,
> I believe that
> Kawanakajima ought to be considered a Renaissance
> era battle. Indeed, I would submit
> that, although a middle point in the Age of the
> Country at War, the
> introduction at Tanegashima in 1543 of Portuguese
> firearms ought to be considered the
> beginning of Modern War in Japan, as the large use
> of cannon in Italy in 1494
> by the French is often considered the beginning of
> the epoch of modern war in
> Europe. I know Chinese firearms were there from
> approximately 1511 [pace
> Turnbull], but they were not nearly as
> sophisticated as the Portuguese, and the
> large contracts vetted for Oda Nobunaga after their
> introduction seems to bear
> out my point. I hope Tony Bryant has some thoughts
> he can share here?
> Regards, Profmurf
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>

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Sure, guns were used since the 1550s, but it was at Nagashino, that
for the first time the "volley firing" was used. By having shooters
rotating behind a palisade, Nobunaga used for the first time firearms
in an effective way. The rotation of shooters meant no gap between one
bullet and the next, and the palisade defended them from the charging
opponent. No army fighting with medieval weapons and tactics could have
ever won against that, in fact in Nagashino some 10,000 of the Takeda's
men died, two third of the entire army.
Regarding firearms, the Japanese started to make their own in the
1550s, copying from the Portuguese models. One of the main foundries
was in Sakai (today South Osaka), and that's why Nobunaga really wanted
to take that town - which, of course, he did.
Cepo,
Honolulu

On Nov 16, 2003, at 8:55 AM, murphymurphyjohn@... wrote:

> With the reliance on firearms by Kenshin and Takeda, I believe that
> Kawanakajima ought to be considered a Renaissance era battle. 
> Indeed,  I would submit
> that, although a middle point in the Age of the Country at War,  the
> introduction at Tanegashima in 1543 of Portuguese firearms ought to be
> considered the
> beginning of Modern War in Japan,  as the large use of cannon in Italy
> in 1494
> by the French is often considered the beginning of the epoch of modern
> war in
> Europe.  I know Chinese firearms were there from approximately 1511
> [pace
> Turnbull],  but they were not nearly as sophisticated as the
> Portuguese,  and the
> large contracts vetted for Oda Nobunaga after their introduction seems
> to bear
> out my point.  I hope Tony Bryant has some thoughts he can share here? 
> Regards,  Profmurf
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> ADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree with Nate.
In particular, the term Renaissance is normally used in a cultural
context, so I do not understand the connection with warring...

If we should select a historical period in medieval Japan we could
"compare" (oowwww, here we go again??) with the Renaissance, it would
probably be the very late Muromachi+Azuchi-Momoyama period of "Gold and
Red," coming after the austere, heavily Zen influenced arts of the
Kamakura/Muromachi periods. Nobunaga and Hideyoshi castles were perfect
example of the artistic abundance and extravagance of the period.

Bye,
Cepo, Honolulu.

PS=I have a couple of very nice shots of Hideyoshi's castle in Momoyama
(Fushimi), is there any way I can share them with you? It will be
finally re-opened to the public in 2005.

On Nov 16, 2003, at 3:03 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> Again, I'm a little confused--you use the term
> "renaissance".
>
> The Renaissance took place in Europe. How exactly does
> the term relate to Japan? I'm used to discussing
> Japanese history in terms of Jidai (muromachi,
> Sengoku, Azuchi-Momoyama, Tokugawa, whatever) or,
> somewhat less familiar, by "Chusei", "Kinsei", etc.
>
> Where does "renaissance" fall in this?
>
> Nate
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

> Sure, guns were used since the 1550s, but it was at
> Nagashino, that
> for the first time the "volley firing" was used.

Completely not true. A common fallacy. Rotating volley
fire was used by Nobunaga as early as 1554:

"The following year, 1554, Nobunaga demonstrated that
he also knew how to use these new weapons when he
attacked Imagawa Yoshimoto's Muraki Castle on the Chit
Peninsula. Nobunaga advanced to the edge of the moat,
and organised relays of ashigaru with arquebuses to
keep up a constant fire. This was a clear example of
organised volley firing 25 years before Nagashino"
Turnbull, "The Samurai Sourcebook", p 135.

The Ikko-ikki used it against him MANY times, notable
the second siege of Nagashima. Nobunaga's brilliance
at Nagashino was combining the use of this tactic and
the terrain and obstacles to form a defense designed
specifically for his opponent's greatest strength, his
cavalry.


By

> having shooters
> rotating behind a palisade, Nobunaga used for the
> first time firearms
> in an effective way. The rotation of shooters meant
> no gap between one
> bullet and the next, and the palisade defended them
> from the charging
> opponent. No army fighting with medieval weapons and
> tactics could have
> ever won against that, in fact in Nagashino some
> 10,000 of the Takeda's
> men died, two third of the entire army.
> Regarding firearms, the Japanese started to make
> their own in the
> 1550s, copying from the Portuguese models. One of
> the main foundries
> was in Sakai (today South Osaka), and that's why
> Nobunaga really wanted
> to take that town - which, of course, he did.
> Cepo,
> Honolulu
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2003, at 8:55 AM,
> murphymurphyjohn@... wrote:
>
> > With the reliance on firearms by Kenshin and
> Takeda, I believe that
> > Kawanakajima ought to be considered a Renaissance
> era battle.
> > Indeed, I would submit
> > that, although a middle point in the Age of the
> Country at War, the
> > introduction at Tanegashima in 1543 of Portuguese
> firearms ought to be
> > considered the
> > beginning of Modern War in Japan, as the

large

> use of cannon in Italy
> > in 1494
> > by the French is often considered the beginning of
> the epoch of modern
> > war in
> > Europe. I know Chinese firearms were there

from

> approximately 1511
> > [pace
> > Turnbull], but they were not nearly as
> sophisticated as the
> > Portuguese, and the
> > large contracts vetted for Oda Nobunaga after
> their introduction seems
> > to bear
> > out my point. I hope Tony Bryant has some
> thoughts he can share here?
> > Regards, Profmurf
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> > Samurai Archives:http://www.samurai-archives.com
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> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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Read the Nagashino section of Rekishi Gunso (Chris or
William, can you give us the issue #? I forgot) or
Turnbull's "Nagashino 1575". These will help dispel
some of the more common misperceptions of this battle.


Nate

--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

> Sure, guns were used since the 1550s, but it was at
> Nagashino, that
> for the first time the "volley firing" was used. By
> having shooters
> rotating behind a palisade, Nobunaga used for the
> first time firearms
> in an effective way. The rotation of shooters meant
> no gap between one
> bullet and the next, and the palisade defended them
> from the charging
> opponent. No army fighting with medieval weapons and
> tactics could have
> ever won against that, in fact in Nagashino some
> 10,000 of the Takeda's
> men died, two third of the entire army.
> Regarding firearms, the Japanese started to make
> their own in the
> 1550s, copying from the Portuguese models. One of
> the main foundries
> was in Sakai (today South Osaka), and that's why
> Nobunaga really wanted
> to take that town - which, of course, he did.
> Cepo,
> Honolulu
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2003, at 8:55 AM,
> murphymurphyjohn@... wrote:
>
> > With the reliance on firearms by Kenshin and
> Takeda, I believe that
> > Kawanakajima ought to be considered a Renaissance
> era battle.
> > Indeed, I would submit
> > that, although a middle point in the Age of the
> Country at War, the
> > introduction at Tanegashima in 1543 of Portuguese
> firearms ought to be
> > considered the
> > beginning of Modern War in Japan, as the

large

> use of cannon in Italy
> > in 1494
> > by the French is often considered the beginning of
> the epoch of modern
> > war in
> > Europe. I know Chinese firearms were there

from

> approximately 1511
> > [pace
> > Turnbull], but they were not nearly as
> sophisticated as the
> > Portuguese, and the
> > large contracts vetted for Oda Nobunaga after
> their introduction seems
> > to bear
> > out my point. I hope Tony Bryant has some
> thoughts he can share here?
> > Regards, Profmurf
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> > Samurai Archives:http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
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> Terms of Service.
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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Good call--the cultural comparison is a valid one, and
may prove interesting.

I'll say again, comparing and contrasting is okay. but
you can't say "which is better, knight or samurai, or
samurai and ninja, or Leonardo Da Vinci or Kanno
Eitoku?" Ridiculous.

Nate

--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

> I agree with Nate.
> In particular, the term Renaissance is normally used
> in a cultural
> context, so I do not understand the connection with
> warring...
>
> If we should select a historical period in medieval
> Japan we could
> "compare" (oowwww, here we go again??) with the
> Renaissance, it would
> probably be the very late Muromachi+Azuchi-Momoyama
> period of "Gold and
> Red," coming after the austere, heavily Zen
> influenced arts of the
> Kamakura/Muromachi periods. Nobunaga and Hideyoshi
> castles were perfect
> example of the artistic abundance and extravagance
> of the period.
>
> Bye,
> Cepo, Honolulu.
>
> PS=I have a couple of very nice shots of Hideyoshi's
> castle in Momoyama
> (Fushimi), is there any way I can share them with
> you? It will be
> finally re-opened to the public in 2005.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2003, at 3:03 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> > Again, I'm a little confused--you use the term
> > "renaissance".
> >
> > The Renaissance took place in Europe. How exactly
> does
> > the term relate to Japan? I'm used to discussing
> > Japanese history in terms of Jidai (muromachi,
> > Sengoku, Azuchi-Momoyama, Tokugawa, whatever) or,
> > somewhat less familiar, by "Chusei", "Kinsei",
> etc.
> >
> > Where does "renaissance" fall in this?
> >
> > Nate
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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I've been a wargamer for over 30 years and we talk about "Renaissance
wargaming" all the time. It usually refers to the period when armies used artillery
and firearms (handguns, arquebusses, and early muskets).

Bob Burke


In a message dated 11/16/03 6:04:50 PM, cepo@... writes:

<< I agree with Nate.
In particular, the term Renaissance is normally used in a cultural
context, so I do not understand the connection with warring...

If we should select a historical period in medieval Japan we could
"compare" (oowwww, here we go again??) with the Renaissance, it would
probably be the very late Muromachi+Azuchi-Momoyama period of "Gold and
Red," coming after the austere, heavily Zen influenced arts of the
Kamakura/Muromachi periods. Nobunaga and Hideyoshi castles were perfect
example of the artistic abundance and extravagance of the period.

Bye,
Cepo, Honolulu.

PS=I have a couple of very nice shots of Hideyoshi's castle in Momoyama
(Fushimi), is there any way I can share them with you? It will be
finally re-opened to the public in 2005. >>

Thanks! Probably, Nagashino is only "more famous"???
I'll ask my teacher on Tuesday - To be honest, I'm not very strong on
sengoku, and that's why I joined this list (my specialty are... ahem...
Geisha-not very martial!!) - ;o)
xxx
Cepo, Honolulu

On Nov 16, 2003, at 6:23 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> Read the Nagashino section of Rekishi Gunso (Chris or
> William, can you give us the issue #? I forgot) or
> Turnbull's "Nagashino 1575". These will help dispel
> some of the more common misperceptions of this battle.
>
>
> Nate
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ah, that explains a lot! :oD
Is the term limited to wargames, or not??
Cepo, Honolulu

On Nov 16, 2003, at 8:57 PM, burker1@... wrote:

> I've been a wargamer for over 30 years and we talk about "Renaissance
> wargaming" all the time.  It usually refers to the period when armies
> used artillery
> and firearms (handguns, arquebusses, and early muskets).
>
> Bob Burke
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cesare Polenghi wrote:

> To be honest, I'm not very strong on
> sengoku, and that's why I joined this list (my specialty are... ahem...
> Geisha-not very martial!!) - ;o)

Hey, you have to specialize in what you like.


Tony

Not a problem. It gets talked about often like it was
a breakthrough in military tactics--and I think it
was. But not because of the rotating firing
lines--that had been done before.

To me, Nagashino confirms Nobunaga's military genius.
Not because he used rotating firing lines, but because
he analyzed his enemy and came up with a perfect plan
to defeat him. The way he combined the natural
terrain, the obstacles, and the fires is exactly like
they teach us as military officers. Unfortunately,
Takeda Katsuyori didn't listen to his officers, like
modern S-2's, who would have told him no way they
should go in there. Oh well.

Nate

--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

> Thanks! Probably, Nagashino is only "more famous"???
> I'll ask my teacher on Tuesday - To be honest, I'm
> not very strong on
> sengoku, and that's why I joined this list (my
> specialty are... ahem...
> Geisha-not very martial!!) - ;o)
> xxx
> Cepo, Honolulu
>
> On Nov 16, 2003, at 6:23 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> > Read the Nagashino section of Rekishi Gunso (Chris
> or
> > William, can you give us the issue #? I forgot) or
> > Turnbull's "Nagashino 1575". These will help
> dispel
> > some of the more common misperceptions of this
> battle.
> >
> >
> > Nate
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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Ah ha. Wargaming. Not history. Hence my confusion.

It's generally not a term used to describe Japanese
history.

Nate

--- burker1@... wrote:

> I've been a wargamer for over 30 years and we talk
> about "Renaissance
> wargaming" all the time. It usually refers to the
> period when armies used artillery
> and firearms (handguns, arquebusses, and early
> muskets).
>
> Bob Burke
>
>
> In a message dated 11/16/03 6:04:50 PM,
> cepo@... writes:
>
> << I agree with Nate.
> In particular, the term Renaissance is normally used
> in a cultural
> context, so I do not understand the connection with
> warring...
>
> If we should select a historical period in medieval
> Japan we could
> "compare" (oowwww, here we go again??) with the
> Renaissance, it would
> probably be the very late Muromachi+Azuchi-Momoyama
> period of "Gold and
> Red," coming after the austere, heavily Zen
> influenced arts of the
> Kamakura/Muromachi periods. Nobunaga and Hideyoshi
> castles were perfect
> example of the artistic abundance and extravagance
> of the period.
>
> Bye,
> Cepo, Honolulu.
>
> PS=I have a couple of very nice shots of Hideyoshi's
> castle in Momoyama
> (Fushimi), is there any way I can share them with
> you? It will be
> finally re-opened to the public in 2005. >>
>
>

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William and I specialize in Eiko Koike.

(g)

Nate

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Cesare Polenghi wrote:
>
> > To be honest, I'm not very strong on
> > sengoku, and that's why I joined this list (my
> specialty are... ahem...
> > Geisha-not very martial!!) - ;o)
>
> Hey, you have to specialize in what you like.
>
>
> Tony
>
>

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Do I detect a hint of condescension? The key to successful wargaming is a thorough knowledge and understanding of history.

Bob Burke

In a message dated 11/17/2003 4:08:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> writes:

>Ah ha. Wargaming. Not history. Hence my confusion.
>
>It's generally not a term used to describe Japanese
>history.
>
>Nate
>
>--- burker1@... wrote:
>> I've been a wargamer for over 30 years and we talk
>> about "Renaissance
>> wargaming" all the time.  It usually refers to the
>> period when armies used artillery
>> and firearms (handguns, arquebusses, and early
>> muskets).
>>
>> Bob Burke
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 11/16/03 6:04:50 PM,
>> cepo@... writes:
>>
>> << I agree with Nate.
>> In particular, the term Renaissance is normally used
>> in a cultural
>> context, so I do not understand the connection with
>> warring...
>>
>> If we should select a historical period in medieval
>> Japan we could
>> "compare" (oowwww, here we go again??) with the
>> Renaissance, it would
>> probably be the very late Muromachi+Azuchi-Momoyama
>> period of "Gold and
>> Red," coming after the austere, heavily Zen
>> influenced arts of the
>> Kamakura/Muromachi periods. Nobunaga and Hideyoshi
>> castles were perfect
>> example of the artistic abundance and extravagance
>> of the period.
>>
>> Bye,
>> Cepo, Honolulu.
>>
>> PS=I have a couple of very nice shots of Hideyoshi's
>> castle in Momoyama
>> (Fushimi), is there any way I can share them with
>> you? It will be
>> finally re-opened to the public in 2005. >>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
>
>

Not at all, and I apologize if that's how it came out.


Wargaming, in a fashion, is an integral part of my
job. I've got no disrespect at all for someone else
who does it for fun.

The point of my post is that in studying Japanese
history, you do not use the term "renaissance" to
describe any particular period of JAPANESE history.
The "Renaissance" was a Western European phenomenon,
by no means a world-wide event, and the use of it in
connection with Japanese history smacks of cultural
bias. Japan didn't HAVE a "Renaissance", at least not
in the same sense Europe did, so you can hopefully see
my confusion as to the use of the word.

When you mentioned you used it because it's a term
used to describe that period in your wargaming, I
dismissed the question. I certainly didn't mean to
dismiss you--you answered my question for me. You were
using the term in a familiar application to you--and
now I understand that. If you had argued that it was a
valid HISTORICAL period of Japan, I would have still
been confused--would you mean the Azuchi-Momoyama
period, because there was a flourishing of the arts?
or would you mean the early Tokugawa, because of the
watershed political changes? Very confusing.

Again, nothing meant against wargaming--I was thinking
in terms of a historical definition of the word. You
merely were using it in a context unfamiliar to me,
and I thank you for clearing it up.

Nate

--- burker1@... wrote:

> Do I detect a hint of condescension? The key to
> successful wargaming is a thorough knowledge and
> understanding of history.
>
> Bob Burke
>
> In a message dated 11/17/2003 4:08:11 AM Eastern
> Standard Time, Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>
> writes:
>
> >Ah ha. Wargaming. Not history. Hence my confusion.
> >
> >It's generally not a term used to describe Japanese
> >history.
> >
> >Nate
> >
> >--- burker1@... wrote:
> >> I've been a wargamer for over 30 years and we
> talk
> >> about "Renaissance
> >> wargaming" all the time. It usually

refers to

> the
> >> period when armies used artillery
> >> and firearms (handguns, arquebusses, and early
> >> muskets).
> >>
> >> Bob Burke
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 11/16/03 6:04:50 PM,
> >> cepo@... writes:
> >>
> >> << I agree with Nate.
> >> In particular, the term Renaissance is normally
> used
> >> in a cultural
> >> context, so I do not understand the connection
> with
> >> warring...
> >>
> >> If we should select a historical period in
> medieval
> >> Japan we could
> >> "compare" (oowwww, here we go again??) with the
> >> Renaissance, it would
> >> probably be the very late
> Muromachi+Azuchi-Momoyama
> >> period of "Gold and
> >> Red," coming after the austere, heavily Zen
> >> influenced arts of the
> >> Kamakura/Muromachi periods. Nobunaga and
> Hideyoshi
> >> castles were perfect
> >> example of the artistic abundance and
> extravagance
> >> of the period.
> >>
> >> Bye,
> >> Cepo, Honolulu.
> >>
> >> PS=I have a couple of very nice shots of
> Hideyoshi's
> >> castle in Momoyama
> >> (Fushimi), is there any way I can share them with
> >> you? It will be
> >> finally re-opened to the public in 2005. >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>

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Nate,

Thank you for clarifying your comments. I appreciate it. I'm sorry if I was too quick to take offense. I suspect that there are "serious historians" out there who look down on wargaming. Of course, I would argue that wargaming has done more to teach history to the masses that all the serious historians put together (or at least most of them). :)

You are correct, I was using the term "Renaissance" to identify a particular period of time and not to identify a particular period in Japanese history. Or, at the most, a particular time in Japanese warfare involving the use of artillery and firearms.

If you don't mind sharing, I would be interested in hearing more about your job. How does one make a living involving wargames?

Thanks again.


Bob Burke

In a message dated 11/17/2003 11:44:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> writes:

>Not at all, and I apologize if that's how it came out.
>
>
>Wargaming, in a fashion, is an integral part of my
>job. I've got no disrespect at all for someone else
>who does it for fun.
>
>The point of my post is that in studying Japanese
>history, you do not use the term "renaissance" to
>describe any particular period of JAPANESE history.
>The "Renaissance" was a Western European phenomenon,
>by no means a world-wide event, and the use of it in
>connection with Japanese history smacks of cultural
>bias. Japan didn't HAVE a "Renaissance", at least not
>in the same sense Europe did, so you can hopefully see
>my confusion as to the use of the word.
>
>When you mentioned you used it because it's a term
>used to describe that period in your wargaming, I
>dismissed the question. I certainly didn't mean to
>dismiss you--you answered my question for me. You were
>using the term in a familiar application to you--and
>now I understand that. If you had argued that it was a
>valid HISTORICAL period of Japan, I would have still
>been confused--would you mean the Azuchi-Momoyama
>period, because there was a flourishing of the arts?
>or would you mean the early Tokugawa, because of the
>watershed political changes? Very confusing.
>
>Again, nothing meant against wargaming--I was thinking
>in terms of a historical definition of the word. You
>merely were using it in a context unfamiliar to me,
>and I thank you for clearing it up.
>
>Nate
>
>--- burker1@... wrote:
>> Do I detect a hint of condescension?  The key to
>> successful wargaming is a thorough knowledge and
>> understanding of history.
>>
>> Bob Burke
>>
>> In a message dated 11/17/2003 4:08:11 AM Eastern
>> Standard Time, Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>
>> writes:
>>
>> >Ah ha. Wargaming. Not history. Hence my confusion.
>> >
>> >It's generally not a term used to describe Japanese
>> >history.
>> >
>> >Nate
>> >
>> >--- burker1@... wrote:
>> >> I've been a wargamer for over 30 years and we
>> talk
>> >> about "Renaissance
>> >> wargaming" all the time. It usually
>refers to
>> the
>> >> period when armies used artillery
>> >> and firearms (handguns, arquebusses, and early
>> >> muskets).
>> >>
>> >> Bob Burke
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In a message dated 11/16/03 6:04:50 PM,
>> >> cepo@... writes:
>> >>
>> >> << I agree with Nate.
>> >> In particular, the term Renaissance is normally
>> used
>> >> in a cultural
>> >> context, so I do not understand the connection
>> with
>> >> warring...
>> >>
>> >> If we should select a historical period in
>> medieval
>> >> Japan we could
>> >> "compare" (oowwww, here we go again??) with the
>> >> Renaissance, it would
>> >> probably be the very late
>> Muromachi+Azuchi-Momoyama
>> >> period of "Gold and
>> >> Red," coming after the austere, heavily Zen
>> >> influenced arts of the
>> >> Kamakura/Muromachi periods. Nobunaga and
>> Hideyoshi
>> >> castles were perfect
>> >> example of the artistic abundance and
>> extravagance
>> >> of the period.
>> >>
>> >> Bye,
>> >> Cepo, Honolulu.
>> >>
>> >> PS=I have a couple of very nice shots of
>> Hideyoshi's
>> >> castle in Momoyama
>> >> (Fushimi), is there any way I can share them with
>> >> you? It will be
>> >> finally re-opened to the public in 2005. >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >__________________________________
>> >Do you Yahoo!?
>> >Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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>> >Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
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>> >samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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>> >
>> >
>>
>
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>
>

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> William and I specialize in Eiko Koike.
>

I could get into that.

Or maybe not...


Tony

Would depend on how the kami smile on you... (g)


--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> > William and I specialize in Eiko Koike.
> >
>
> I could get into that.
>
> Or maybe not...
>
>
> Tony
>
>

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It's probably Rekishi Gunzo #5 - Takeda Shingen, and/or #8 - Uesugi
Kenshin. I don't have them here with me, but the numbers are right.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> Read the Nagashino section of Rekishi Gunso (Chris or
> William, can you give us the issue #? I forgot) or
> Turnbull's "Nagashino 1575". These will help dispel
> some of the more common misperceptions of this battle.
>
>
> Nate
>
> --- Cesare Polenghi wrote:
> > Sure, guns were used since the 1550s, but it was at
> > Nagashino, that
> > for the first time the "volley firing" was used. By
> > having shooters
> > rotating behind a palisade, Nobunaga used for the
> > first time firearms
> > in an effective way. The rotation of shooters meant
> > no gap between one
> > bullet and the next, and the palisade defended them
> > from the charging
> > opponent. No army fighting with medieval weapons and
> > tactics could have
> > ever won against that, in fact in Nagashino some
> > 10,000 of the Takeda's
> > men died, two third of the entire army.
> > Regarding firearms, the Japanese started to make
> > their own in the
> > 1550s, copying from the Portuguese models. One of
> > the main foundries
> > was in Sakai (today South Osaka), and that's why
> > Nobunaga really wanted
> > to take that town - which, of course, he did.
> > Cepo,
> > Honolulu
> >
> >
> > On Nov 16, 2003, at 8:55 AM,
> > murphymurphyjohn@a... wrote:
> >
> > > With the reliance on firearms by Kenshin and
> > Takeda, I believe that
> > > Kawanakajima ought to be considered a Renaissance
> > era battle.
> > > Indeed, I would submit
> > > that, although a middle point in the Age of the
> > Country at War, the
> > > introduction at Tanegashima in 1543 of Portuguese
> > firearms ought to be
> > > considered the
> > > beginning of Modern War in Japan, as the
> large
> > use of cannon in Italy
> > > in 1494
> > > by the French is often considered the beginning of
> > the epoch of modern
> > > war in
> > > Europe. I know Chinese firearms were there
> from
> > approximately 1511
> > > [pace
> > > Turnbull], but they were not nearly as
> > sophisticated as the
> > > Portuguese, and the
> > > large contracts vetted for Oda Nobunaga after
> > their introduction seems
> > > to bear
> > > out my point. I hope Tony Bryant has some
> > thoughts he can share here?
> > > Regards, Profmurf
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >
> > > ADVERTISEMENT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Samurai Archives:http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > > ---
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> > > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > Terms of Service.
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
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> >
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You would know, I got it from you...

Nate

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> It's probably Rekishi Gunzo #5 - Takeda Shingen,
> and/or #8 - Uesugi
> Kenshin. I don't have them here with me, but the
> numbers are right.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> wrote:
> > Read the Nagashino section of Rekishi Gunso (Chris
> or
> > William, can you give us the issue #? I forgot) or
> > Turnbull's "Nagashino 1575". These will help
> dispel
> > some of the more common misperceptions of this
> battle.
> >
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > --- Cesare Polenghi wrote:
> > > Sure, guns were used since the 1550s, but it was
> at
> > > Nagashino, that
> > > for the first time the "volley firing" was used.
> By
> > > having shooters
> > > rotating behind a palisade, Nobunaga used for
> the
> > > first time firearms
> > > in an effective way. The rotation of shooters
> meant
> > > no gap between one
> > > bullet and the next, and the palisade defended
> them
> > > from the charging
> > > opponent. No army fighting with medieval weapons
> and
> > > tactics could have
> > > ever won against that, in fact in Nagashino some
> > > 10,000 of the Takeda's
> > > men died, two third of the entire army.
> > > Regarding firearms, the Japanese started to make
> > > their own in the
> > > 1550s, copying from the Portuguese models. One
> of
> > > the main foundries
> > > was in Sakai (today South Osaka), and that's why
> > > Nobunaga really wanted
> > > to take that town - which, of course, he did.
> > > Cepo,
> > > Honolulu
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 16, 2003, at 8:55 AM,
> > > murphymurphyjohn@a... wrote:
> > >
> > > > With the reliance on firearms by Kenshin and
> > > Takeda, I believe that
> > > > Kawanakajima ought to be considered a
> Renaissance
> > > era battle.
> > > > Indeed, I would submit
> > > > that, although a middle point in the Age of
> the
> > > Country at War, the
> > > > introduction at Tanegashima in 1543 of
> Portuguese
> > > firearms ought to be
> > > > considered the
> > > > beginning of Modern War in Japan, as
> the
> > large
> > > use of cannon in Italy
> > > > in 1494
> > > > by the French is often considered the
> beginning of
> > > the epoch of modern
> > > > war in
> > > > Europe. I know Chinese firearms were
> there
> > from
> > > approximately 1511
> > > > [pace
> > > > Turnbull], but they were not nearly as
> > > sophisticated as the
> > > > Portuguese, and the
> > > > large contracts vetted for Oda Nobunaga after
> > > their introduction seems
> > > > to bear
> > > > out my point. I hope Tony Bryant has
> some
> > > thoughts he can share here?
> > > > Regards, Profmurf
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > > removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > >
> > > > ADVERTISEMENT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Samurai
> Archives:http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > > > ---
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> to:
> > > > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo!
> > > Terms of Service.
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > > removed]
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Hi there. I am writing a paper on the "Junk-trade" commerce between
Ayutthaya (Siam) and Nagasaki in the first half of the 17th c.
According to a Dutch source, the Siamese sent to Tokugawa Japan 500,000
deer skins in 1608.
Anybody has any idea why the Japanese would need so many deer skins-and
why Siamese?? Maybe they were cheaper? Better? If you have any kind of
source, even better, but reasonable guesses are ok too ;o)
THANK YOU!!
Cesare, Honolulu

gloves for archery...

-t

Sir, without being too acute in interpreting your
'literary' expression, I do agree that it was one of
turning points in the North Asian warfare.
The only one point that I want make is that it could
have been more complete if there were a distinction
between a small firearm and a large firearm. Unlike
their Europeans brothers, three North Asian countries
did not learn to combine arquebus and cannons in
proper ways until the modern times.





Sincerely,





Changsub Lee






--- murphymurphyjohn@... wrote:

> With the reliance on firearms by Kenshin and Takeda,
> I believe that
> Kawanakajima ought to be considered a Renaissance
> era battle. Indeed, I would submit
> that, although a middle point in the Age of the
> Country at War, the
> introduction at Tanegashima in 1543 of Portuguese
> firearms ought to be considered the
> beginning of Modern War in Japan, as the large use
> of cannon in Italy in 1494
> by the French is often considered the beginning of
> the epoch of modern war in
> Europe. I know Chinese firearms were there from
> approximately 1511 [pace
> Turnbull], but they were not nearly as
> sophisticated as the Portuguese, and the
> large contracts vetted for Oda Nobunaga after their
> introduction seems to bear
> out my point. I hope Tony Bryant has some thoughts
> he can share here?
> Regards, Profmurf
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>

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ps. Sir Montgomery and Napoleon were both good at
using the artillery after all. Personally, I can not
cound too many commanders other than these two great
men in history as far as I am concerned with tactical
and strategical ability.

--- Lee Changsub <knorr31@...> wrote:

> Sir, without being too acute in interpreting your
> 'literary' expression, I do agree that it was one of
> turning points in the North Asian warfare.
> The only one point that I want make is that it could
> have been more complete if there were a distinction
> between a small firearm and a large firearm. Unlike
> their Europeans brothers, three North Asian
> countries
> did not learn to combine arquebus and cannons in
> proper ways until the modern times.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
>
>
> Changsub Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- murphymurphyjohn@... wrote:
> > With the reliance on firearms by Kenshin and
> Takeda,
> > I believe that
> > Kawanakajima ought to be considered a Renaissance
> > era battle. Indeed, I would submit
> > that, although a middle point in the Age of the
> > Country at War, the
> > introduction at Tanegashima in 1543 of Portuguese
> > firearms ought to be considered the
> > beginning of Modern War in Japan, as the large
> use
> > of cannon in Italy in 1494
> > by the French is often considered the beginning of
> > the epoch of modern war in
> > Europe. I know Chinese firearms were there from
> > approximately 1511 [pace
> > Turnbull], but they were not nearly as
> > sophisticated as the Portuguese, and the
> > large contracts vetted for Oda Nobunaga after
> their
> > introduction seems to bear
> > out my point. I hope Tony Bryant has some
> thoughts
> > he can share here?
> > Regards, Profmurf
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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>

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"The point of my post is that in studying Japanese
history, you do not use the term "renaissance" to
describe any particular period of JAPANESE history.
The "Renaissance" was a Western European phenomenon,
by no means a world-wide event, and the use of it in
connection with Japanese history smacks of cultural
bias. Japan didn't HAVE a "Renaissance", at least not
in the same sense Europe did, so you can hopefully see
my confusion as to the use of the word. "

Especially demonstrated in the case of Italy. THe italians wenth thru their renaissnce while England, France, Germany, etc.. were all still in the medieval age.. most deffinitely a cultural thing..

Wilson





--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 08:44:12
From: Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

Not at all, and I apologize if that's how it came out.


Wargaming, in a fashion, is an integral part of my
job. I've got no disrespect at all for someone else
who does it for fun.

The point of my post is that in studying Japanese
history, you do not use the term "renaissance" to
describe any particular period of JAPANESE history.
The "Renaissance" was a Western European phenomenon,
by no means a world-wide event, and the use of it in
connection with Japanese history smacks of cultural
bias. Japan didn't HAVE a "Renaissance", at least not
in the same sense Europe did, so you can hopefully see
my confusion as to the use of the word.

When you mentioned you used it because it's a term
used to describe that period in your wargaming, I
dismissed the question. I certainly didn't mean to
dismiss you--you answered my question for me. You were
using the term in a familiar application to you--and
now I understand that. If you had argued that it was a
valid HISTORICAL period of Japan, I would have still
been confused--would you mean the Azuchi-Momoyama
period, because there was a flourishing of the arts?
or would you mean the early Tokugawa, because of the
watershed political changes? Very confusing.

Again, nothing meant against wargaming--I was thinking
in terms of a historical definition of the word. You
merely were using it in a context unfamiliar to me,
and I thank you for clearing it up.

Nate

--- burker1@... wrote:

> Do I detect a hint of condescension? The key to
> successful wargaming is a thorough knowledge and
> understanding of history.
>
> Bob Burke
>
> In a message dated 11/17/2003 4:08:11 AM Eastern
> Standard Time, Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>
> writes:
>
> >Ah ha. Wargaming. Not history. Hence my confusion.
> >
> >It's generally not a term used to describe Japanese
> >history.
> >
> >Nate
> >
> >--- burker1@... wrote:
> >> I've been a wargamer for over 30 years and we
> talk
> >> about "Renaissance
> >> wargaming" all the time. It usually

refers to

> the
> >> period when armies used artillery
> >> and firearms (handguns, arquebusses, and early
> >> muskets).
> >>
> >> Bob Burke
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 11/16/03 6:04:50 PM,
> >> cepo@... writes:
> >>
> >> << I agree with Nate.
> >> In particular, the term Renaissance is normally
> used
> >> in a cultural
> >> context, so I do not understand the connection
> with
> >> warring...
> >>
> >> If we should select a historical period in
> medieval
> >> Japan we could
> >> "compare" (oowwww, here we go again??) with the
> >> Renaissance, it would
> >> probably be the very late
> Muromachi+Azuchi-Momoyama
> >> period of "Gold and
> >> Red," coming after the austere, heavily Zen
> >> influenced arts of the
> >> Kamakura/Muromachi periods. Nobunaga and
> Hideyoshi
> >> castles were perfect
> >> example of the artistic abundance and
> extravagance
> >> of the period.
> >>
> >> Bye,
> >> Cepo, Honolulu.
> >>
> >> PS=I have a couple of very nice shots of
> Hideyoshi's
> >> castle in Momoyama
> >> (Fushimi), is there any way I can share them with
> >> you? It will be
> >> finally re-opened to the public in 2005. >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> >http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
> >
> >
> >Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> >---
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>

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