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An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

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#2351 [2003-10-25 18:51:38]

An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by cepooooo

After studying premodern Japanese history for a few years through the texts of the
classic American historians (Keene, Varley, Hall, etc.), I finally got me a couple of
books from Stephen Turnbull. While he is not associated with any great University, his
work seems to me quite interesting. Perhaps he is not an amazing writer ( imean; his
style), but he seems to be truly in love with the subject, and I really like the way he
fills his books with pictures. I am happy this kind of (perhaps?) self-made scholarship
is available.
Since this is the first time I write, I was wondering what you "samurai-maniacs" public
think of Turnbull in general.
Any book you would suggest in particular?
Thanx,
cepo

[Next #2352]

#2352 [2003-10-25 18:56:11]

Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by kitsuno

Uh oh... Better put on your flak jacket, bullets are about to fly...

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "cepooooo" wrote:
> After studying premodern Japanese history for a few years through
the texts of the
> classic American historians (Keene, Varley, Hall, etc.), I finally
got me a couple of
> books from Stephen Turnbull. While he is not associated with any
great University, his
> work seems to me quite interesting. Perhaps he is not an amazing
writer ( imean; his
> style), but he seems to be truly in love with the subject, and I
really like the way he
> fills his books with pictures. I am happy this kind of (perhaps?)
self-made scholarship
> is available.
> Since this is the first time I write, I was wondering what
you "samurai-maniacs" public
> think of Turnbull in general.
> Any book you would suggest in particular?
> Thanx,
> cepo

[Previous #2351] [Next #2353]

#2353 [2003-10-25 19:01:29]

Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by cepooooo

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
> Uh oh... Better put on your flak jacket, bullets are about to fly...

Ahem.... :o)
I imagined Turnbull could be a -so to speak- controversial figure, so I suppose a debate
on his work might be interesting... perhaps... ugh...

Will I be sent in exile to the Oki island?
cepo

[Previous #2352] [Next #2355]

#2355 [2003-10-25 19:51:36]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by DAngelo72

I don't know who Turnbull is, but I'll look into him to see what he's about, then I'll have an opinion.
Phil


Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...> wrote:
Uh oh... Better put on your flak jacket, bullets are about to fly...

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "cepooooo" wrote:
> After studying premodern Japanese history for a few years through
the texts of the
> classic American historians (Keene, Varley, Hall, etc.), I finally
got me a couple of
> books from Stephen Turnbull. While he is not associated with any
great University, his
> work seems to me quite interesting. Perhaps he is not an amazing
writer ( imean; his
> style), but he seems to be truly in love with the subject, and I
really like the way he
> fills his books with pictures. I am happy this kind of (perhaps?)
self-made scholarship
> is available.
> Since this is the first time I write, I was wondering what
you "samurai-maniacs" public
> think of Turnbull in general.
> Any book you would suggest in particular?
> Thanx,
> cepo



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#2356 [2003-10-26 00:40:05]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by ltdomer98

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:
> Uh oh... Better put on your flak jacket, bullets are
> about to fly...
>


LOL

"Adjust fire, drop 500, fire for effect!!!"

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#2357 [2003-10-26 09:39:48]

Re: [samuraihistory] An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by nihontonut

Personally I like his books and I credit him with turning me on to this subject many years ago with his book,
Samurai a Military History. It is a nice big thick book with a fair bit of information in it, his best one I think.

regards
Dave Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: cepooooo
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:51 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work


After studying premodern Japanese history for a few years through the texts of the
classic American historians (Keene, Varley, Hall, etc.), I finally got me a couple of
books from Stephen Turnbull. While he is not associated with any great University, his
work seems to me quite interesting. Perhaps he is not an amazing writer ( imean; his
style), but he seems to be truly in love with the subject, and I really like the way he
fills his books with pictures. I am happy this kind of (perhaps?) self-made scholarship
is available.
Since this is the first time I write, I was wondering what you "samurai-maniacs" public
think of Turnbull in general.
Any book you would suggest in particular?
Thanx,
cepo


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#2358 [2003-10-26 07:02:30]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by matthewhoyle2000

I would also be interested in your professional opinions on this persons
work, I am thinking about getting some of his books.

Matt

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Kitsuno [mailto:samurai-listowner@...]
Verzonden: zondag 26 oktober 2003 2:56
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [samuraihistory] Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work


Uh oh... Better put on your flak jacket, bullets are about to fly...

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "cepooooo" wrote:
> After studying premodern Japanese history for a few years through
the texts of the
> classic American historians (Keene, Varley, Hall, etc.), I finally
got me a couple of
> books from Stephen Turnbull. While he is not associated with any
great University, his
> work seems to me quite interesting. Perhaps he is not an amazing
writer ( imean; his
> style), but he seems to be truly in love with the subject, and I
really like the way he
> fills his books with pictures. I am happy this kind of (perhaps?)
self-made scholarship
> is available.
> Since this is the first time I write, I was wondering what
you "samurai-maniacs" public
> think of Turnbull in general.
> Any book you would suggest in particular?
> Thanx,
> cepo



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[Previous #2357] [Next #2359]

#2359 [2003-10-26 09:43:48]

Re: [samuraihistory] An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by rodjohnson001

Well..... Seeing battle lines are being drawn up I had better take up my position on the defences!!

Stephen Turnbull's books have done more to popularise the military history of the samurai and Japan in the western world than any other author. Whilst I would agree with some, and I do make some critisism at times, that his work is not perhaps 100% academic, contains some errors and does suffer from a degree of repetition, it has never the less provided a firm foundation over the past 25 years for the "samurai enthusiasts".

Stephen had an interest in Japan and the Far East from his early days and this no doubt helped him in his studies at Cambridge University and obtaining a Doctorate from Leeds with his thesis on the Hidden Christians of Japan. He has ben a member of the Japan Society for many years and is currently an Honorary Research Fellow at the Department of East Asian Studies at the University of Leeds. So on one point a small correction, he is associated with a great university.. He is also associated with the Samurai Gallery of the UK National Armouries and has acted as consultant to the BBC, The History Channel and "Shogun" anmongst others...

I first met Stephen in the early seventies when he and I were both members of the North Cheshire Military Modelling Society, there his infectious enthusiasm for the topic made me a convert. We still occassionally bump into each other up and down the country. His first book on the samurai published in 1977, "The Samurai: A Military History" was a mammoth task for those days and ignited a thirst for knowledge on the subject in the UK .

My own reasonably extensive library has over 20 Turnbull publications on various aspects of the samurai competing for space with books in japanese, german, french, italian and polish as well as many others in english. I have much respect for Stephen in that he "put pen to paper" and put "his head above the parapet!" (how's that for mixed metaphors...). It is almost a standing joke between us that my book has yet to come to fruition - but then I am an engineer!

I would recommend that you view his website and perhaps obtain a couple of the books from a library before you decide to purchase your first... I am presently making my way through the two great volumes of collected papers in his editorial work "The Samurai Tradition" {published cost over £200}

http://freespace.virgin.net/stephen.turnbull/publications.htm

Now, as another english author did say... "let loose the dogs of war!"

Rod Johnson :-)



--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "cepooooo" wrote:

> After studying premodern Japanese history for a few years through the texts of the
> classic American historians (Keene, Varley, Hall, etc.), I finally got me a couple of
> books from Stephen Turnbull. While he is not associated with any great University, his
> work seems to me quite interesting. Perhaps he is not an amazing writer ( imean; his
> style), but he seems to be truly in love with the subject, and I really like the way he
> fills his books with pictures. I am happy this kind of (perhaps?) self-made scholarship
> is available.
> Since this is the first time I write, I was wondering what you "samurai-maniacs" public
> think of Turnbull in general.
> Any book you would suggest in particular?
> Thanx,
> cepo





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2358] [Next #2360]

#2360 [2003-10-26 16:07:59]

Re: [samuraihistory] An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by cepooooo

On Sunday, October 26, 2003, at 06:43 AM, shogun.uk wrote:

> Stephen had an interest in Japan and the Far East from his early days
> and this no doubt helped him in his studies at Cambridge University
> and obtaining a Doctorate from Leeds with his thesis on the Hidden
> Christians of Japan. He has ben a member of the Japan Society for many
> years and is currently an Honorary Research Fellow at the Department
> of East Asian Studies at the University of Leeds.  So on one point a
> small correction, he is associated with a great university..  He is
> also associated with the Samurai Gallery of the UK National Armouries
> and has acted as consultant to the BBC, The History Channel and
> "Shogun" anmongst others...

Thanks so much Rod. I suppose I was the ignorant victim of (...ahem...)
American prejudice. Perhaps, because no reference to Cambridge and
Leeds can be found on most of his books, I believe people assumed he
was an independent. Thanks again for your comment!
Cepo, Honolulu


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2359] [Next #2362]

#2362 [2003-10-26 23:10:16]

Re: [samuraihistory] An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by ltdomer98

Very very well put. Seems you've got a personal
connection with the man--that's great.

Turnbull takes a lot of flak for not being very
"academic". That's fine, as far as most people are
concerned--how many of us here REALLY care to read
about the shift in the Kokudaka taxation system and
it's effects on Sanuki province in 1590? Fascinating
stuff, let me tell you.

Turnbull has done excellent work in making Samurai
history ACCESSIBLE. It's popular history--not going to
win praise from people who shut themselves in academic
ivory towers, but if someone wants to read about the
Samurai, they have someone to read--between Turnbull
and Tony Bryant, that covers about all you'll find in
your average B.Dalton's.

Yes, Turnbull's work IS repetitive, which can be
maddening--sometimes it appears that he is a master at
repackaging in order to make more money. He uses the
same anecdotes in many of his books--I can find at
least one that he uses three seperate times. And
someteimes what he writes is flat wrong, or
contradictory. I've heard many people criticize that,
as have I in the past. BUT--while I won't hold him up
as a paragon of research, did anyone ever stop to
think that maybe the reason he wrote one thing in 1979
and something contradictory in 1995 is that he found
NEW evidence or realized he was wrong? Could be...

No one is perfect. But no one else has made available,
in English, the sheer amount of information that he
has--who cares if it's rehashes of Rekishi Gunzo or if
there are minor mistakes? I'm a qualified Japanese
linguist according to the US Army (just took my
recertification test and passed this morning! go me!)
and Rekishi Gunzo kicks my behind when I try to read
it! And I'd rather have people confused or mistaking
the date that a particular battle took place because
they read Turnbull than believing HALF the crap we see
come across the board about "ninjas" vs. "samurais"
and so forth.

I don't think I'd use Turnbull as a major source in a
doctoral thesis--I'd probably go to HIS sources and
use them directly. BUT, I have many of his books, plan
to get more, and they are great to read to get good
information in an engaging way.


Nate


--- "shogun.uk" <shogun.uk@...> wrote:
> Well..... Seeing battle lines are being drawn up I
> had better take up my position on the defences!!
>

> Now, as another english author did say... "let loose
> the dogs of war!"
>
> Rod Johnson :-)
>
\

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[Previous #2360] [Next #2363]

#2363 [2003-10-27 13:44:26]

Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by kitsuno

I'm going to limit my commments--

"...did anyone ever stop to think that maybe the reason he wrote one thing in 1979 and something contradictory in 1995 is that he found NEW evidence or realized he was wrong?"

I'm pretty sure the issue was that he has been rewriting old mistakes - he HASN'T corrected them. He's been reproducing errors along with his other stuff.

There is also the issue of outright plagarism from Papinot (not only does he essentially take much of what Papinot wrote word for word, but he includes the errors as well) as well possible plagarism from at least one Rekishi Gunzo picture (an issue where he draws a picture and calls it the 'author's representation' whereas it is actually essentially a hand tracing from one of the Rekishi Gunzo books). I have never found a citation for Papinot, and I don't know if a blanket citation from Rekishi Gunzo counts for the pic. I might have missed the Papinot citation, though - and would greatly appreciate it if someone did find one. It would set my mind at ease ;)

Also, although he cites nearly all the Rekishi Gunzo books, it is apparent that in reality he has barely touched them as a resource. I agree, it is VERY nice having this information in English, but I also DEFINITELY agree that I would be very wary of using any of his books as a source without corroboration from another source.

"but if someone wants to read about the Samurai, they have someone to read--between Turnbull and Tony Bryant, that covers about all you'll find in your average B.Dalton's."

I can think of at least one website, too! ;)~

Also, I'm sure it doesn't matter, but my impression was at least at first he wasn't associated with any university and essentially was an independent.

That's my two pennies, and they could be wrong.

[Previous #2362] [Next #2364]

#2364 [2003-10-27 13:50:21]

Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by iganokami

>>>>Turnbull has done excellent work in making Samurai
history ACCESSIBLE. It's popular history--not going to
win praise from people who shut themselves in academic
ivory towers, but if someone wants to read about the
Samurai, they have someone to read--between Turnbull
and Tony Bryant, that covers about all you'll find in
your average B.Dalton's.<<<<

Just because there is only one show in town, that doesn't
make it a GOOD show....

IgaNoKami

==========
"Let a man warm himself by your fire and he will be warm
for an hour;
set him on fire [by soaking him in gasoline and lighting
him up], and he will be warm for the rest of his [very
short] life."*

*Modified for clarity.
--
Visit Things From Another World for the best
comics, movies, toys, collectibles and more.
http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf

[Previous #2363] [Next #2365]

#2365 [2003-10-27 19:11:59]

Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by kitsuno

Interesting, and valid point. Interesting sig, too.


>
> Just because there is only one show in town, that doesn't
> make it a GOOD show....
>
> IgaNoKami
>
> ==========
> "Let a man warm himself by your fire and he will be warm
> for an hour;
> set him on fire [by soaking him in gasoline and lighting
> him up], and he will be warm for the rest of his [very
> short] life."*
>
> *Modified for clarity.
> --
> Visit Things From Another World for the best
> comics, movies, toys, collectibles and more.
> http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf

[Previous #2364] [Next #2367]

#2367 [2003-10-27 21:04:53]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by ltdomer98

--- samurai-listowner@... wrote:

>
> I'm pretty sure the issue was that he has been
> rewriting old mistakes - he HASN'T corrected them.
> He's been reproducing errors along with his other
> stuff.

Valid complaint.

>
> There is also the issue of outright plagarism from
> Papinot (not only does he essentially take much of
> what Papinot wrote word for word, but he includes
> the errors as well) as well possible plagarism from
> at least one Rekishi Gunzo picture

Also valid. Again, never defended him as a paragon of
research or academic virtue.

I agree, it is VERY
> nice having this information in English, but I also
> DEFINITELY agree that I would be very wary of using
> any of his books as a source without corroboration
> from another source.
>

Yep. That's why I said it. He's a good place to
START--but we should all realize that no author is
ever free from mistakes 100% of the time. Just because
you read it in Turnbull or whomever, doesn't make it
correct, necessarily. It should be cross-checked and
verified elsewhere.

I STILL stand by my point that I'd rather someone
mistake the date of a battle because they read it
several times in incorrect Turnbull editions than to
go off reading half the crap about ninja and samurai
that people THINK is real.

>
> I can think of at least one website, too! ;)~
>

When did they start selling websites in B. Dalton's?
LOL

> Also, I'm sure it doesn't matter, but my impression
> was at least at first he wasn't associated with any
> university and essentially was an independent.

That's my impression also. That he was an independent,
and then got associated with some Univ as an outside
expert. My main problem with Turnbull is that he's
full of himself--I think it's great to have the info
in English and accesible, but when he does the above
mentioned things and tries to pass it off as his great
original research...

Anyways, I'll see your tuppence and raise you 10 yen.


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#2368 [2003-10-28 00:28:51]

Re: [samuraihistory] An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by umaryu

Hi

I agree with Dave

I too was drawn to the Samurai history by his books.
My girlfriend when I was 17 went mental went I bought
Samurai a Military history saying i had spent far too
much on one book.

As a result of that one expensive book (at the time) I
now have over 180 books on japanese related subjects,
own several swords and have a successful martial arts
career that has taken me out of the UK over 30 times
all over eruope and the uSA to teach.

I know some of the other authors and scholars dont
like his work, but with out Turnbull we would have a
small handful of books on Japanese subject

What somepeople have to realise is that Turnbull is
providing a service to many that otherwise would not
be available. His books are cheap and full of plenty
of basic man on the street style info.

I am sorry but I think a lot of the attacks on him are
jealous because he is out there knocking the info out
and making moneyout of it. I am on several lists and
apart form one or two names that have a dig at him I
cant find anything published by the others who
complain. If you can do better then do it. Just think
of how many who are interested in Japanese history
wouldnt be with out Turnbull

I will add however that his ninja books are crap and
so full of bad informatiion I was amazed he actually
put some of the stuff in them which he did

Paul



--- Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Personally I like his books and I credit him with
turning me on to this subject many years ago with his
book,
Samurai a Military History. It is a nice big thick
book with a fair bit of information in it, his best
one I think.

regards
Dave Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: cepooooo
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:51 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] An opinion on Stephen
Turnbull's work


After studying premodern Japanese history for a few
years through the texts of the
classic American historians (Keene, Varley, Hall,
etc.), I finally got me a couple of
books from Stephen Turnbull. While he is not
associated with any great University, his
work seems to me quite interesting. Perhaps he is
not an amazing writer ( imean; his
style), but he seems to be truly in love with the
subject, and I really like the way he
fills his books with pictures. I am happy this kind
of (perhaps?) self-made scholarship
is available.
Since this is the first time I write, I was
wondering what you "samurai-maniacs" public
think of Turnbull in general.
Any book you would suggest in particular?
Thanx,
cepo


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[Previous #2367] [Next #2373]

#2373 [2003-10-28 11:48:56]

Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by iganokami

I beg to differ - I think the complaint is poor
scholarship. Like I said, just because you are the only
show in town, it doesn't make you a good show. He has no
competition, so his lazy research gets him by. There is
nothing wrong with faulting a scholar for poor
scholarship. If you are going to do it, do it right. For
whatever reason, he is very topical and misses a lot of
good research opportunities. If I had the resources he
SHOULD have to put together a book on Samurai history, I
sure as hell would put as much effort into the research as
possible. I and others don't get that feeling from his
books. I am dissapointed that one would rest on their
laurels the way he has - a scholar should endeavor to
contribute more each time around. But if he isn't a
scholar, and is just simply a popular writer who likes to
put out books on samurai history with no qualifications,
then that is absolutely fine. but if that is the case, he
should admit it. As it is, his website makes him out to be
the preeminent scholar of Japanese history in the West,
which he isn't. I'd expect better scholarship from such a
person. And if you noticed the issues with the "Ninja"
book (see below) you should understand why the people who
study japanese military history have issues with his
"samurai" books.
I think the issues that people have is not that he is
making money, but simply shoddy scholarship. It IS good
for a solid general overview, but like they say "the
quality is in the details".

IgaNoKami

>>>>>I am sorry but I think a lot of the attacks on him are
jealous because he is out there knocking the info out
and making moneyout of it. I am on several lists and
apart form one or two names that have a dig at him I
cant find anything published by the others who
complain. If you can do better then do it. Just think
of how many who are interested in Japanese history
wouldnt be with out Turnbull

I will add however that his ninja books are crap and
so full of bad informatiion I was amazed he actually
put some of the stuff in them which he did<<<<<

==========
"Let a man warm himself by your fire and he will be warm
for an hour;
set him on fire [by soaking him in gasoline and lighting
him up], and he will be warm for the rest of his [very
short] life."*

*Modified for NF benifit.
--
Visit Things From Another World for the best
comics, movies, toys, collectibles and more.
http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf

[Previous #2368] [Next #2374]

#2374 [2003-10-28 11:52:15]

Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by iganokami

To be fair, I haven't seen his any of his newer books
(from the last 2 or 3 years - Nagashino, The S. Korea
campaign book, Kawanakajima, etc.) so I'm basing my
thoughts & comments on the previous. I don't know the
level of scholarship in the new stuff. Perhaps he has
redeemed himself.......?

==========
"Let a man warm himself by your fire and he will be warm
for an hour;
set him on fire [by soaking him in gasoline and lighting
him up], and he will be warm for the rest of his [very
short] life."*

*Modified for NF benifit.
--
Visit Things From Another World for the best
comics, movies, toys, collectibles and more.
http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf

[Previous #2373] [Next #2375]

#2375 [2003-10-28 15:00:37]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by ltdomer98

I have the Nagashino book and the Samurai
Sourcebook--both are quite good. Much better than
previous work.
Again, I would hesitate to use either as a primary
source without verifying data included (unless pressed
for time, like I was with the paper on the
website--one day I'm going to finish redoing that!)



Nate



--- eatswithscissorsrunswithmonkeys
<intp@...> wrote:
> To be fair, I haven't seen his any of his newer
> books
> (from the last 2 or 3 years - Nagashino, The S.
> Korea
> campaign book, Kawanakajima, etc.) so I'm basing my
> thoughts & comments on the previous. I don't know
> the
> level of scholarship in the new stuff. Perhaps he
> has
> redeemed himself.......?
>
> ==========
> "Let a man warm himself by your fire and he will be
> warm
> for an hour;
> set him on fire [by soaking him in gasoline and
> lighting
> him up], and he will be warm for the rest of his
> [very
> short] life."*
>
> *Modified for NF benifit.
> --
> Visit Things From Another World for the best
> comics, movies, toys, collectibles and more.
> http://www.tfaw.com/?qt=wmf
>


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#2380 [2003-10-28 20:38:29]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: An opinion on Stephen Turnbull's work

by cepooooo

On Tuesday, October 28, 2003, at 08:52 AM,
eatswithscissorsrunswithmonkeys wrote:

> To be fair, I haven't seen his any of his newer books
> (from the last 2 or 3 years - Nagashino, The S. Korea
> campaign book, Kawanakajima, etc.) so I'm basing my
> thoughts & comments on the previous.  I don't know the
> level of scholarship in the new stuff.  Perhaps he has
> redeemed himself.......?

The book on the Invasions in Korea (actually the invasion went up to
almost to the Yalu River, so, even if one judged by today boundaries,
it's not only S.Korea) is not bad. A lot of maps and info from Korean
sources too. Unfortunately, the crucial role of the Ming Celestial Army
is generally ignored. So, I'd say it's a good work, but partially
incomplete.
cepo


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