Japanese Samurai History - The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

#235 [2001-07-15 19:31:44]

The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by Eamon Murray

Hey listka,
Does anyone here know the origin of the ninja straight sword?
And would they share this information? Did the ninja actually train with or
use the straight sword?

E.

[Next #237]

#237 [2001-07-16 21:51:14]

Re: [samuraihistory] The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by erik baker

Hello,

The ninja straight sword is a myth. They used some
interesting tools but for the most part their entire
legend is movie myth.

Steven turnbull wrote a hard to get book called the
ninja that sets out all the myth and seperates it from
the truth.

The ninja were called shinobi among other things and
it is believed that this idea came from sun tzu among
other old chinese sources. Usually the "ninja" were
guys that would sneak in to a castle and set fire or
cause confusion in an enemy camp.

There is more but you can get the bokk by ordering
from amazon.uk

Musashi
--- Eamon Murray <eamonbm@...> wrote:

> Hey listka,
> Does anyone here know the origin of
> the ninja straight sword?
> And would they share this information? Did the ninja
> actually train with or
> use the straight sword?
>
> E.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

[Previous #235] [Next #238]

#238 [2001-07-17 07:04:59]

Re: [samuraihistory] The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by fifthchamber@aol.com

I think that if you search the forums such as E-Budo you will find the
answers in more depth there, anyway...
As far as I (or most people) know, the Ninja-To (straight blade) was first
used in the 1980's as a gimmick by people who were caught up in the
'Ninja-boom'. These weapons are not proven 'Ninja' tools, indeed why would
any spy wish to advertise his position as obviously as wearing a straight and
shorter blade? Their use by ninja is probably as real as their "as used by
Hattori Hanzo" stickers and labels.
Sensei Hatsumi says in his book that the Ninja families had made their own
blades due to the costs of getting Katana, and this is believable at
least..These swords may have been shorter, or had larger, square, Tsuba
(guards) but the Katana/Tachi shape of sword has been proven to be far more
effective than a straight bladed weapon in the way the Katana was used and
the Ninja families would probably have kept the basic shape similar.
Sensei Tanemura's book "Ninpo secrets" has an photograph of what he calls a
'Ninja-to" but it is a curved sword, similar to a Wakizashi in length and
with concealed pockets on the Saya for 'metsubishi' powders or to brath
through underwater.
As I said, none of this can be proven but check around and generally I think
most people see the Ninja-to as a bit of joke. (ala Teenage mutant ninja
Turtles et al..)
The debate continues......

[Previous #237] [Next #256]

#256 [2001-07-21 12:55:17]

Re: [samuraihistory] The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by Alexander M. Frazier

In regard to the ninja straight sword, something I would like to add to
this discussion may shed some light on the subject. I couldn't say
specifically or without doubt that ninja did or did not use some different
sort of weapon.
What I CAN say, though, is that ninja, if you consider them with some
modicum of common sense, were samurai. The "Ninjitsu" art is very skilled
and shows traces of the higher teachings of other martial arts belonging to
families of very high social status, including the Imperial family.
Arts such as these were not taught to the common soldier. More
specifically, they were rarely, if ever, taught to people outside the family
or clan. The ninja arts you see on the hyped up television shows are more
like karate, an art developed by peasants. The actual art of ninjitsu is
MUCH different. It is more like jujutsu, involving joint locks, pressure
points, balance breaking, and all the other fundamental principles of the
secret arts of the samurai clans.
What you must consider here is that ninja were not assassins sent to
murder the common folk. Soldiers would have done just fine for that task.
Ninja were assassins designated for murdering members of the higher social
status.
Send an ill-trained man to take out someone like Oda Nobunaga, Ieyesu
Tokugawa, Shingen Takeda, etc, and what you would likely end up with is a
botched assassination. Yes, it's true that any man can be gotten to, but men
of such stature were not so easy to kill, and only a fool would send a lacky
for such an important task knowing that if he failed, the blame might come
back on him. Japanese bravery or not, torture can motivate a lot of people.
Therefore, it is my educated guess that ninja had to be of at least
samurai status in order to have the training necessary to lay low someone so
well trained in the martial arts as the people they were sent to
assassinate. If they are samurai, then it is not likely they used anything
different than the typical samurai katana.
IF they used something different, it would have been for some sort of
practical purpose, like ease of movement, or the ability to move unhindered
in tight quarters. After all, they did not walk up to the front door and
announce that they were there to assassinate someone, and I imagine it would
have been cumbersome trying to scale a castle wall in the fancy samurai garb
and protruding katana at the hip. A shoulder harness would have been
appropriate for such tasks, and a curved katana blade would have been more
difficult to draw from such a position.
Sooo, although I am of the opinion that the ninja did not carry straight
swords, I can see the practicality in it given their task and the
circumstances surrounding the completion of it. The curved katana might have
been a better weapon, but the ninja did not intend to pitch battle. They
intended a sword in the back.
This, of course, is all just opinion and conjecture, but as with most
things, if you take a look at the root of something, a lot of truths come to
the surface.

Alex

----- Original Message -----
From: erik baker <musashieb@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

> Hello,
>
> The ninja straight sword is a myth. They used some
> interesting tools but for the most part their entire
> legend is movie myth.
>
> Steven turnbull wrote a hard to get book called the
> ninja that sets out all the myth and seperates it from
> the truth.
>
> The ninja were called shinobi among other things and
> it is believed that this idea came from sun tzu among
> other old chinese sources. Usually the "ninja" were
> guys that would sneak in to a castle and set fire or
> cause confusion in an enemy camp.
>
> There is more but you can get the bokk by ordering
> from amazon.uk
>
> Musashi
> --- Eamon Murray <eamonbm@...> wrote:
> > Hey listka,
> > Does anyone here know the origin of
> > the ninja straight sword?
> > And would they share this information? Did the ninja
> > actually train with or
> > use the straight sword?
> >
> > E.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.hn.org/samurai-archives/index.html
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Previous #238] [Next #260]

#260 [2001-07-22 15:52:28]

Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by fredjnsn@hotmail.com

Indirectly on topic, but a question/comment nonetheless. . . In all
my years of reading and studying Japanese Samurai history, I have
NEVER come accross anything even remotely resembling 'a group of
samurai practicing karate together in a dojo' (quote is my own). I
have never seen any references to unarmed combat training, and don't
see much use for it anyway. The samurai studied weapons, which is
common sense, of course. I don't believe (and this is opinion) that
even 'powerful samurai families' employed 'martial artists' to teach
them unarmed combat. from my limited (6 years of martial arts
training about 10 years ago or so - and my studying of martial arts
history) is that unarmed combat originated in Okinawa, and at best
200 - 300 years ago. I'm sure that judo or jujitsu-like 'wrestling'
probably existed, but I doubt that Takeda Shingen or Oda Nobunaga
hired martial arts experts to train there armies in the way of
unarmed combat. I would hazzard to guess based on what I've read
(and thus on what I 'haven't' come accross) that mass training for
the armies wasn't too common - even weapons training. most ashigaru
probably went out and cut themselves a bamboo spear and just charged
into battle hoping for the best. I would assume that any martial
training with weapons was done on one's own, and not through
a 'teacher' exept for perhaps the 'richest' or closest to the lord,
who would receive sword training. Anyway, my point is that I've
never seen ANYTHING regarding maritial arts training in
the 'scholarly' Japanese history books. At best the subject comes up
in the VERY questionable 'martial arts history books'. If someone
has info on martial arts training from a 'reputable source' PLEASE
respond to this post. I am curious about this simply because it is
not something covered by Hall, Varley, Sansom, Berry, or the others.

[Previous #256] [Next #261]

#261 [2001-07-23 12:21:38]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by Anthony J. Bryant

fredjnsn@... wrote:

> Indirectly on topic, but a question/comment nonetheless. . . In all
> my years of reading and studying Japanese Samurai history, I have
> NEVER come accross anything even remotely resembling 'a group of
> samurai practicing karate together in a dojo' (quote is my own). I
> have never seen any references to unarmed combat training, and don't
> see much use for it anyway. The samurai studied weapons, which is
> common sense, of course. I don't believe (and this is opinion) that
> even 'powerful samurai families' employed 'martial artists' to teach
> them unarmed combat. from my limited (6 years of martial arts
> training about 10 years ago or so - and my studying of martial arts
> history) is that unarmed combat originated in Okinawa, and at best
> 200 - 300 years ago. I'm sure that judo or jujitsu-like 'wrestling'
> probably existed, but I doubt that Takeda Shingen or Oda Nobunaga
> hired martial arts experts to train there armies in the way of
> unarmed combat. I would hazzard to guess based on what I've read
> (and thus on what I 'haven't' come accross) that mass training for
> the armies wasn't too common - even weapons training. most ashigaru
> probably went out and cut themselves a bamboo spear and just charged
> into battle hoping for the best. I would assume that any martial
> training with weapons was done on one's own, and not through
> a 'teacher' exept for perhaps the 'richest' or closest to the lord,
> who would receive sword training. Anyway, my point is that I've
> never seen ANYTHING regarding maritial arts training in
> the 'scholarly' Japanese history books. At best the subject comes up
> in the VERY questionable 'martial arts history books'. If someone
> has info on martial arts training from a 'reputable source' PLEASE
> respond to this post. I am curious about this simply because it is
> not something covered by Hall, Varley, Sansom, Berry, or the others.
>

You'd be surprised. There is an old martial art (the name of which escapes
me for the moment) which is, essentially, "wrestling in armour."

It's a very practical thing to learn to do, if you're an armoured warrior
who periodically has to fight in close quarters. You learn how to grab and
secure people wearing armour (where to grab, etc.) and how to avoid being
grabbed while in armour.

Tony

[Previous #260] [Next #262]

#262 [2001-07-23 13:31:42]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by Tomás Aira

there are also woodblocks prints(is it ukyo-e?) showing armoured and
unarmoured samurai training and fighting in styles known now as martial
arts.

although you (fred) are not the first I hear on that matter. a few years
ago I heard from my kendo sensei that there were not a single record of
the word ninja nor their activity, even in tales or whatsoever,
regarding the ninja.

if this proves to be false (I have not found the evidences on the
contrary up to now), considering some serious publication or original
art, let me know, I am eager to believe in something :-o

and please, excuse my poor english,

Tomás

"Anthony J. Bryant" escribió:

>
> fredjnsn@... wrote:
>
> > Indirectly on topic, but a question/comment nonetheless. . . In all
> > my years of reading and studying Japanese Samurai history, I have
> > NEVER come accross anything even remotely resembling 'a group of
> > samurai practicing karate together in a dojo' (quote is my own). I
> > have never seen any references to unarmed combat training, and don't
> > see much use for it anyway. The samurai studied weapons, which is
> > common sense, of course. I don't believe (and this is opinion) that
> > even 'powerful samurai families' employed 'martial artists' to teach
> > them unarmed combat. from my limited (6 years of martial arts
> > training about 10 years ago or so - and my studying of martial arts
> > history) is that unarmed combat originated in Okinawa, and at best
> > 200 - 300 years ago. I'm sure that judo or jujitsu-like 'wrestling'
> > probably existed, but I doubt that Takeda Shingen or Oda Nobunaga
> > hired martial arts experts to train there armies in the way of
> > unarmed combat. I would hazzard to guess based on what I've read
> > (and thus on what I 'haven't' come accross) that mass training for
> > the armies wasn't too common - even weapons training. most ashigaru
> > probably went out and cut themselves a bamboo spear and just charged
> > into battle hoping for the best. I would assume that any martial
> > training with weapons was done on one's own, and not through
> > a 'teacher' exept for perhaps the 'richest' or closest to the lord,
> > who would receive sword training. Anyway, my point is that I've
> > never seen ANYTHING regarding maritial arts training in
> > the 'scholarly' Japanese history books. At best the subject comes
> up
> > in the VERY questionable 'martial arts history books'. If someone
> > has info on martial arts training from a 'reputable source' PLEASE
> > respond to this post. I am curious about this simply because it is
> > not something covered by Hall, Varley, Sansom, Berry, or the others.
> >
>
> You'd be surprised. There is an old martial art (the name of which
> escapes
> me for the moment) which is, essentially, "wrestling in armour."
>
> It's a very practical thing to learn to do, if you're an armoured
> warrior
> who periodically has to fight in close quarters. You learn how to grab
> and
> secure people wearing armour (where to grab, etc.) and how to avoid
> being
> grabbed while in armour.
>
> Tony
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.hn.org/samurai-archives/index.html
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Previous #261] [Next #263]

#263 [2001-07-23 17:26:45]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by Sami Liljavirta

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony J. Bryant
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

If someone
> has info on martial arts training from a 'reputable source' PLEASE
> respond to this post. I am curious about this simply because it is
> not something covered by Hall, Varley, Sansom, Berry, or the others.
>

-Try; http://koryu.com/index.html
http://koryu.com/library/mskoss8.html !

You'd be surprised. There is an old martial art (the name of which escapes
me for the moment) which is, essentially, "wrestling in armour."

-Yoroi kumiuchi?

It's a very practical thing to learn to do, if you're an armoured warrior
who periodically has to fight in close quarters. You learn how to grab and
secure people wearing armour (where to grab, etc.) and how to avoid being
grabbed while in armour.

-SWJL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #262] [Next #264]

#264 [2001-07-23 17:30:23]

Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by fredjnsn@hotmail.com

Actually, I have heard of that sort of thing, and it only makes sense,
anyway. What I haven't come across is a 'samurai bootcamp'. I notice
martial artists like to talk about 'training like the samurai' but
can't help but think there wasn't any real sort of 'regiment' that
they followed. It's not like china where you have a courtyard of 500
bald warriors in white robes practicing spear techniques. I just get
the impression that the samurai of the sengoku period lived war and
didn't particularly train for it - at least not in the 'boot camp'
sense...

>
> You'd be surprised. There is an old martial art (the name of which

escapes

> me for the moment) which is, essentially, "wrestling in armour."
>
> It's a very practical thing to learn to do, if you're an armoured

warrior

> who periodically has to fight in close quarters. You learn how to

grab and

> secure people wearing armour (where to grab, etc.) and how to avoid

being

> grabbed while in armour.
>
>
> Tony

[Previous #263] [Next #265]

#265 [2001-07-23 18:39:45]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by erik baker

Hey tony: I believe that, that art originated with
sumo which has the obi in a similar position to that
of armour and so would suit it quite well. sorry I
don't remember the name of the art either

Musashi
--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> fredjnsn@... wrote:
>
> > Indirectly on topic, but a question/comment
> nonetheless. . . In all
> > my years of reading and studying Japanese Samurai
> history, I have
> > NEVER come accross anything even remotely
> resembling 'a group of
> > samurai practicing karate together in a dojo'
> (quote is my own). I
> > have never seen any references to unarmed combat
> training, and don't
> > see much use for it anyway. The samurai studied
> weapons, which is
> > common sense, of course. I don't believe (and
> this is opinion) that
> > even 'powerful samurai families' employed 'martial
> artists' to teach
> > them unarmed combat. from my limited (6 years of
> martial arts
> > training about 10 years ago or so - and my
> studying of martial arts
> > history) is that unarmed combat originated in
> Okinawa, and at best
> > 200 - 300 years ago. I'm sure that judo or
> jujitsu-like 'wrestling'
> > probably existed, but I doubt that Takeda Shingen
> or Oda Nobunaga
> > hired martial arts experts to train there armies
> in the way of
> > unarmed combat. I would hazzard to guess based on
> what I've read
> > (and thus on what I 'haven't' come accross) that
> mass training for
> > the armies wasn't too common - even weapons
> training. most ashigaru
> > probably went out and cut themselves a bamboo
> spear and just charged
> > into battle hoping for the best. I would assume
> that any martial
> > training with weapons was done on one's own, and
> not through
> > a 'teacher' exept for perhaps the 'richest' or
> closest to the lord,
> > who would receive sword training. Anyway, my
> point is that I've
> > never seen ANYTHING regarding maritial arts
> training in
> > the 'scholarly' Japanese history books. At best
> the subject comes up
> > in the VERY questionable 'martial arts history
> books'. If someone
> > has info on martial arts training from a
> 'reputable source' PLEASE
> > respond to this post. I am curious about this
> simply because it is
> > not something covered by Hall, Varley, Sansom,
> Berry, or the others.
> >
>
> You'd be surprised. There is an old martial art (the
> name of which escapes
> me for the moment) which is, essentially, "wrestling
> in armour."
>
> It's a very practical thing to learn to do, if
> you're an armoured warrior
> who periodically has to fight in close quarters. You
> learn how to grab and
> secure people wearing armour (where to grab, etc.)
> and how to avoid being
> grabbed while in armour.
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

[Previous #264] [Next #266]

#266 [2001-07-24 06:13:17]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by erik baker

yout right the word ninja was never used. There are
records with the word shinobi and someother word which
I can not remember right now. Shinobi is the word
used for ninja sometimes. But keep in mind the
shinobi talked about in records is not part of some
secret clan but could be nothing more than a warrior
or chugun (peasant style worker that cleans and works
with horses) sent in to an enemy camp to steal
something or cause a disturbance.

Musashi
--- Tom�s Aira <tomasaira@...> wrote:

> there are also woodblocks prints(is it ukyo-e?)
> showing armoured and
> unarmoured samurai training and fighting in styles
> known now as martial
> arts.
>
> although you (fred) are not the first I hear on that
> matter. a few years
> ago I heard from my kendo sensei that there were not
> a single record of
> the word ninja nor their activity, even in tales or
> whatsoever,
> regarding the ninja.
>
> if this proves to be false (I have not found the
> evidences on the
> contrary up to now), considering some serious
> publication or original
> art, let me know, I am eager to believe in something
> :-o
>
> and please, excuse my poor english,
>
> Tom�s
>
> "Anthony J. Bryant" escribi�:
> >
> > fredjnsn@... wrote:
> >
> > > Indirectly on topic, but a question/comment
> nonetheless. . . In all
> > > my years of reading and studying Japanese
> Samurai history, I have
> > > NEVER come accross anything even remotely
> resembling 'a group of
> > > samurai practicing karate together in a dojo'
> (quote is my own). I
> > > have never seen any references to unarmed combat
> training, and don't
> > > see much use for it anyway. The samurai studied
> weapons, which is
> > > common sense, of course. I don't believe (and
> this is opinion) that
> > > even 'powerful samurai families' employed
> 'martial artists' to teach
> > > them unarmed combat. from my limited (6 years
> of martial arts
> > > training about 10 years ago or so - and my
> studying of martial arts
> > > history) is that unarmed combat originated in
> Okinawa, and at best
> > > 200 - 300 years ago. I'm sure that judo or
> jujitsu-like 'wrestling'
> > > probably existed, but I doubt that Takeda
> Shingen or Oda Nobunaga
> > > hired martial arts experts to train there armies
> in the way of
> > > unarmed combat. I would hazzard to guess based
> on what I've read
> > > (and thus on what I 'haven't' come accross) that
> mass training for
> > > the armies wasn't too common - even weapons
> training. most ashigaru
> > > probably went out and cut themselves a bamboo
> spear and just charged
> > > into battle hoping for the best. I would assume
> that any martial
> > > training with weapons was done on one's own, and
> not through
> > > a 'teacher' exept for perhaps the 'richest' or
> closest to the lord,
> > > who would receive sword training. Anyway, my
> point is that I've
> > > never seen ANYTHING regarding maritial arts
> training in
> > > the 'scholarly' Japanese history books. At best
> the subject comes
> > up
> > > in the VERY questionable 'martial arts history
> books'. If someone
> > > has info on martial arts training from a
> 'reputable source' PLEASE
> > > respond to this post. I am curious about this
> simply because it is
> > > not something covered by Hall, Varley, Sansom,
> Berry, or the others.
> > >
> >
> > You'd be surprised. There is an old martial art
> (the name of which
> > escapes
> > me for the moment) which is, essentially,
> "wrestling in armour."
> >
> > It's a very practical thing to learn to do, if
> you're an armoured
> > warrior
> > who periodically has to fight in close quarters.
> You learn how to grab
> > and
> > secure people wearing armour (where to grab, etc.)
> and how to avoid
> > being
> > grabbed while in armour.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > Samurai Archives:
> http://www.hn.org/samurai-archives/index.html
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

[Previous #265] [Next #268]

#268 [2001-07-24 10:01:10]

Re: Samurai bootcamp

by fredjnsn@hotmail.com

Mr. Bryant -
Still on the subject of 'samurai bootcamp', I was wondering if you
might have come accross anything in your research regarding samurai
training - if there were any standards, training sessions, etc. I
recall that Nobunaga 'played war' with his men in the fields, which
apparently prepared them for okehazama - but did any lords have any
sort of 'training regiment'?

PS - loved your Sekigahara book - Excellent!

> You'd be surprised. There is an old martial art (the name of which

escapes

> me for the moment) which is, essentially, "wrestling in armour."
>
> It's a very practical thing to learn to do, if you're an armoured

warrior

> who periodically has to fight in close quarters. You learn how to

grab and

> secure people wearing armour (where to grab, etc.) and how to avoid

being

> grabbed while in armour.
>
>
> Tony

[Previous #266] [Next #269]

#269 [2001-07-24 12:02:01]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by Anthony J. Bryant

erik baker wrote:

> Hey tony: I believe that, that art originated with
> sumo which has the obi in a similar position to that
> of armour and so would suit it quite well. sorry I
> don't remember the name of the art either

I don't think so.

For one think, the sumo mawashi isn't an obi per se. And little in armour
grappling depends on the shiroobi, which is hard to get a hold of (it's
tight).

It's like saying football is a development of baseball because they both
wore shoes, or both shoes had spikes.

Is judo a development of sumo? They're both wrestling. Is Greco-Roman
wrestling?

Sometimes things just *are*....

Tony

[Previous #268] [Next #270]

#270 [2001-07-24 18:02:40]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by Alexander M. Frazier

This much I know ...
There were two schools that taught martial arts that I know of, the
information passed down through verbal transmission in the Takeda line. Aizu
had a school that taught Oshikiuchi, a weaponless martial art, and the other
was, I THINK, Onaha Itto-ryu. These schools were very prized, and they
taught to all the high ranking members of the Aizu and Takeda clans; the
dignitaries and political members specifically.
In direct regard to "martial arts training", Judo is an offspring of
Daito-ryu. Although it is powerful in and of itself, it's initial creation
was through a student of Daito-ryu, and all the original "advertisement" so
to speak, was a display of Daito-ryu by Shiro Tanomo, son of Saigo Tanomo.
Certain members of the higher ranking samurai, like Shingen Takeda, not
only learned their heritage art passed down through the family, but they
started at eight years old. The Daito-ryu art in particular, which is the
one Shingen would have studied through his youth and young adulthood, has
been in existence as far back as 1200 AD, formalized by Minamoto Yoshimitsu.
The original form included some weapon study, but it was still a form of
jujutsu, and jujutsu happens to be one of the most potent and deadly arts in
the history of the world. Just watch The Ultimate Fighting Championships if
you doubt that. :oP
As far as high ranking members of the Samurai tradition hiring martial
artists to teach them ... Tokugawa did just that. In the 1640s(?), following
his amnesty, Tokugawa sought out the remnants of the Takeda clan to train
his personal body guards.
The majority of this information is complements of Kondo Sensei. These
are his oral trasmissions as best as I know them, passed down from the
direct Takeda line.

Alex

----- Original Message -----
From: <fredjnsn@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 3:52 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

> Indirectly on topic, but a question/comment nonetheless. . . In all
> my years of reading and studying Japanese Samurai history, I have
> NEVER come accross anything even remotely resembling 'a group of
> samurai practicing karate together in a dojo' (quote is my own). I
> have never seen any references to unarmed combat training, and don't
> see much use for it anyway. The samurai studied weapons, which is
> common sense, of course. I don't believe (and this is opinion) that
> even 'powerful samurai families' employed 'martial artists' to teach
> them unarmed combat. from my limited (6 years of martial arts
> training about 10 years ago or so - and my studying of martial arts
> history) is that unarmed combat originated in Okinawa, and at best
> 200 - 300 years ago. I'm sure that judo or jujitsu-like 'wrestling'
> probably existed, but I doubt that Takeda Shingen or Oda Nobunaga
> hired martial arts experts to train there armies in the way of
> unarmed combat. I would hazzard to guess based on what I've read
> (and thus on what I 'haven't' come accross) that mass training for
> the armies wasn't too common - even weapons training. most ashigaru
> probably went out and cut themselves a bamboo spear and just charged
> into battle hoping for the best. I would assume that any martial
> training with weapons was done on one's own, and not through
> a 'teacher' exept for perhaps the 'richest' or closest to the lord,
> who would receive sword training. Anyway, my point is that I've
> never seen ANYTHING regarding maritial arts training in
> the 'scholarly' Japanese history books. At best the subject comes up
> in the VERY questionable 'martial arts history books'. If someone
> has info on martial arts training from a 'reputable source' PLEASE
> respond to this post. I am curious about this simply because it is
> not something covered by Hall, Varley, Sansom, Berry, or the others.
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.hn.org/samurai-archives/index.html
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Previous #269] [Next #272]

#272 [2001-07-24 23:51:42]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The origins of the Ninja straight sword.

by S. Lyle Parker

Hi All,

Went home and looked at what resources I have desk-side.

As mentioned in my previous post, Hideyoshi did indeed study under the
Chikurin style of archery. What is more, so did Nobunaga and Hidetsugu.

Still did not find much in the way of information about samurai practising
unarmed combat, except for the following short mention by John Rogers:

p. 416 "Most of the martial traditions of the [late Muromachi] period were
composite arts that taught the use of a number of bladed weapons as wells as
armed and unarmed combat."

"Arts of War in Times of Peace" _Monumenta Nipponica_, Vol. 45, no. 4

Another interesting article is by Hurst and may (for some) be a little more
accessible than his book:

"Ryuha in the Martial and Other Japanese Arts". _Journal of Asian Martial
Arts_, Vol. 4, no. 4, 1995.

This article likely is like an abstract of the information on ryuha in the
book (_Armed Martial Arts of Japan_), and is good supplementary info if a
bit off-thread.

Cheers,

Shannon

_________________________________________________________
There is a wisdom that is woe; but there is a woe that is madness. And there
is a Catskill eagle in some souls that can dive alike down into the blackest
gorges, and soar out of them again and become invisible in the sunny spaces.
And even if he for ever flies within the gorge, that gorge is in the
mountains; so that even in his lowest swoop the mountain eagle is still
higher than other birds upon the plain, even though they soar.
-- Herman Melville, _Moby Dick_, "The Try-works"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Previous #270] [Next #277]

#277 [2001-07-25 18:21:29]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai bootcamp

by Anthony J. Bryant

fredjnsn@... wrote:

> Mr. Bryant -

Ach... Tony, please.

>
> Still on the subject of 'samurai bootcamp', I was wondering if you
> might have come accross anything in your research regarding samurai
> training - if there were any standards, training sessions, etc. I
> recall that Nobunaga 'played war' with his men in the fields, which
> apparently prepared them for okehazama - but did any lords have any
> sort of 'training regiment'?
>

I don't know about specific training regiments, but units must have drilled in some fashion.
It's only logical to assume that they did, but I don't know about any specific
organizational details. Each house probably did things in their own way, of course...

>
> PS - loved your Sekigahara book - Excellent!

Thank you. Of the Osprey titles, it's my favorite. It was also the most work. There must be
something to that.

Tony

[Previous #272] [Next #278]

#278 [2001-07-26 02:30:46]

Re: Samurai bootcamp

by tom.davidson@realtime.co.uk

I have been following this thread with interest and wondering
whether training etc. was a lot more 'organic' rather than
organised. Presumably dad (or uncle, or someone in the family
group) would take it upon themselves to teach junior how to
hold a sword properly, how to do this, how to do that . . . the
same applies to the bow, horse-riding, etc. Surely in military
households boys would have learned this the same as how to
dress themselves.

Similarly, although we look at maps of old battles showing the
dispositions of various lords and clans, the model might have
been closer to the Scottish clans (my own heritage) who
just turned up on the day with the boys and were told to 'stand
there - go when I say' rather than forming an organised army as
we understand it. (My family got effectively wiped out when one
of our confederation clans pulled out of the battle moments
before it began because they were refused the 'place of honour'
in the line!)

The skill of the major daimyo must have been organisational as
well as military, in raising and managing large armies. Even at
the last Osaka battle was there not confusion when one unit
moved causing another to cry 'treachery', and wasn't someone
unwilling to move because he hadn't finished breakfast? This
suggests a lot more of a confederation of allies liable to do
their own thing rather than, say, a Napoleonic Grande Armee.

Also, daimyo being the tin-pot dictators a lot of them probably
were, I can well see them calling the troops out on a Sunday
morning and marching them up and down - perhaps if one thinks
of the local militia units raised by the 'lord of the manor'?

I think that the Dojo and Ryu we have today was always a rather
on the esoteric side of things - the exception rather than the
rule? Masters opened schools and took students, yes, but not as
part of a cohesive daimyo training programme. Also, presumably,
skilled warriors on their travels would stop off and avail
themselves of local hospitality in exchange for a few tips?

In the Hagakure there's that bit where the young lord is taken
to the execution grounds to test his cutting skills . . .
presumably again by dad or someone?

We might well ask where the mafia learn all their skills? I
doubt there's some secret training school in Sicily - more
likely within the family, and by trail and error, and luck.

Just some thoughts for the mix

Tom

[Previous #277] [Next #280]

#280 [2001-07-25 22:31:51]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai bootcamp

by Arashisan@aol.com

Tony-sama has classes at Pennsic for those of you going, LOTS of VERY cool
classes. I for one look forward to finaly meeting this honored sensei. see
you there.

Arashi (SCA)

[Previous #278] [Next #281]

#281 [2001-07-26 14:55:16]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai bootcamp

by Anthony J. Bryant

Arashisan@... wrote:

> Tony-sama has classes at Pennsic for those of you going, LOTS of VERY cool
> classes. I for one look forward to finaly meeting this honored sensei. see
> you there.
>
> Arashi (SCA)
>

You're coming to Pennsic? Spiffers! See you there!

Tony

[Previous #280] [Next #284]

#284 [2001-07-27 08:32:21]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai bootcamp

by Cesar Orunoco

When will the armies of SCA coalesce in Pennsic?
What role will the Samurais play?
How do I get there?

Altin Kagan of Kuzey-Ordu

>Arashisan@... wrote:
>
> > Tony-sama has classes at Pennsic for those of you going, LOTS of VERY
>cool
> > classes. I for one look forward to finaly meeting this honored sensei.
>see
> > you there.
> >
> > Arashi (SCA)
> >
>
>You're coming to Pennsic? Spiffers! See you there!
>
>
>Tony
>
>
>
>Samurai Archives: http://www.hn.org/samurai-archives/index.html
>---
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Previous #281]