Japanese Samurai History

#2060 [2003-08-16 13:57:29]

Samurai Women

by matthewhoyle2000

Could someone please explain to me what the difference is (was) between
a Geisha and a Courtisane ?

thankyou

- Matt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#2063 [2003-08-17 01:42:14]

Re: Samurai Women

by shogunmasami

A geisha's primary job is, simply, to entertain and comfort men.
This duty does not require sex. A geisha deals with sexiness, as
opposed to sex. A geisha will flirt, tease, and joke with men, but
always artfully, with finesse. A geisha will make herself a living
work of art, and the goal they work for is one that can never be
reached; perfection in their chosen skill, whether of music, dance,
or singing. A geisha attempts to make her life art, and polish her
character until she shines with it. She sells ideas, dreams, and
fantasies. She will hint at her sexuality, but never flaunt it.

This is a large part of the ideal that geisha aspire to, a style
called "Iki". Iki is a subtle elegance that intrigues, an alluring
style that reflects a whole philosophy of life, not mere
submissiveness as of a prostitute. The translation and explanation
of the many Japanese words for "prostitute" and geisha, were all
explained as "courtesans", Which resulted in obvious confusion.

A courtesan or concubine are in essence a prostitute, which also
existed along side the geishas. And even though a geisha might
please a man sexually on occasion, generally you had to see a
concubine for that service.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew E. Hoyle"
wrote:

> Could someone please explain to me what the difference is (was)

between

> a Geisha and a Courtisane ?
>
> thankyou
>
> - Matt
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2060] [Next #2064]

#2064 [2003-08-17 07:14:46]

Re: Samurai Women

by James Eckman

>
>
> From: "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
>
>Could someone please explain to me what the difference is (was) between
>a Geisha and a Courtisane ?
>
>

In many ways they are similar, but neither have anything to do with
samurai women.

Jim

[Previous #2063] [Next #2066]

#2066 [2003-08-17 15:20:25]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women

by matthewhoyle2000

Why not ?

- Matt

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: James Eckman [mailto:FUGU@...]
Verzonden: zondag 17 augustus 2003 16:15
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women

>
>
> From: "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
>
>Could someone please explain to me what the difference is (was) between
>a Geisha and a Courtisane ?
>
>

[Previous #2064] [Next #2067]

#2067 [2003-08-17 17:19:54]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women

by sengokudaimyo

"Matthew E. Hoyle" wrote:

> Why not ?
>

Umm... because samurai women wouldn't *be* geisha or courtesans, who were from the common class (i.e., peasants or
townspeople)?

Tony

>
> - Matt
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: James Eckman [mailto:FUGU@...]
> Verzonden: zondag 17 augustus 2003 16:15
> Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Onderwerp: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women
>
> >
> >
> > From: "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
> >
> >Could someone please explain to me what the difference is (was) between
> >a Geisha and a Courtisane ?
> >
> >
>
> In many ways they are similar, but neither have anything to do with
> samurai women.
>
> Jim
>
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#2069 [2003-08-17 19:21:40]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women

by holydemon13

Hi there.
Question about the geisha. I read in a book called "Geisha" (author's
name escapes me) that a geisha, at some point during her training, is -- to
use the word that that text uses -- "deflowered", and that the man that usually
has this honour is, for all intents and purposes, her owner or someone he
appoints. Why is this, when geisha are, from the description in the last email,
not primarily about sex, but sexiness? Is it so they will know better the
fantasy, dream or idea which they are attempting to sell? Thanx for clearing
that up.

Later.
Tim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#2070 [2003-08-17 19:08:16]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women

by matthewhoyle2000

So it was unthinkable for a samurai to fall in love with either a geisha
or more likely a courtesan, and then marry her ? The samurai certainly
visited the brothels often enough. I believe there were even large straw
hats for sale at the entrance to these lewd parts of town, so that the
samurai could "disguise" themselves to visit the courtesans.

Besides that this does bring up an interesting question. What exactly is
a "samurai woman", I presume the samurai were only allowed to marry
within their own class, but I would not be surprised if a bunch of them
ignored that rule.

- Matt

Ps. aren't there instances known of samurai women selling themselves to
brothels to pay for their family's debts ?

Van: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
Verzonden: maandag 18 augustus 2003 2:20
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women

"Matthew E. Hoyle" wrote:

> Why not ?
>

Umm... because samurai women wouldn't *be* geisha or courtesans, who
were from the common class (i.e., peasants or
townspeople)?

Tony

>
> - Matt
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: James Eckman [mailto:FUGU@...]
> Verzonden: zondag 17 augustus 2003 16:15
> Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Onderwerp: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women
>
> >
> >
> > From: "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
> >
> >Could someone please explain to me what the difference is (was)

between

> >a Geisha and a Courtisane ?
> >
> >
>
> In many ways they are similar, but neither have anything to do with
> samurai women.
>
> Jim
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>

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#2071 [2003-08-17 20:47:02]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women

by ltdomer98

--- "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
wrote:

> So it was unthinkable for a samurai to fall in love
> with either a geisha
> or more likely a courtesan, and then marry her ?

The key there is the word *marry*. Yes, for the most
part it was unthinkable. A samurai could visit a
courtesan, patronize her, could buy her contract and
make her his exclusively, but wouldn't *marry* her.
Why would he? Marriage was for begetting heirs and
tying your family to other families--what advantage is
there in marrying someone with no family, and who's
lack of family would be detrimental to any offspring
you have? DOn't make the assumption that love and
marriage have anything to do with each other. There
was absolutely no shame in a married samurai
patronizing a prostitute. He could have his cake and
eat it too--what would he gain from marrying someone
who was only good at sex, and not at household
finances or raising children, like a samurai bride
would be?

> Besides that this does bring up an interesting
> question. What exactly is
> a "samurai woman", I presume the samurai were only
> allowed to marry
> within their own class, but I would not be surprised
> if a bunch of them
> ignored that rule.

Again, why ignore that rule? No reason to. If a
samurai fell in "love" (lust, whatever) with a
peasant woman, a courtesan, or whatever, then he'd
have sex with her, patronize her, whatever, but
there's no compulsion to marry her. It's not like
she'd be "damaged goods" after having an affair with
someone of a higher social class---might even improve
her standing.

Nate

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#2072 [2003-08-17 22:43:37]

Re: Samurai Women

by shogunmasami

All apprentice geisha go through something they call mizuage,
or "deflowering." It amounts to the sale of their virginity to the
highest bidder. However, after her mizuage, a first-class geisha
won't make herself available to men on a nightly basis. Although
she'll be a failure as a geisha if she didn't have a man to act as
her patron and pays her expenses. He'll keep her in an elegant
style, and in exchange she'll make herself sexually available to him
exclusively.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> Hi there.
> Question about the geisha. I read in a book
called "Geisha" (author's
> name escapes me) that a geisha, at some point during her training,
is -- to
> use the word that that text uses -- "deflowered", and that the man
that usually
> has this honour is, for all intents and purposes, her owner or
someone he
> appoints. Why is this, when geisha are, from the description in
the last email,
> not primarily about sex, but sexiness? Is it so they will know
better the
> fantasy, dream or idea which they are attempting to sell? Thanx
for clearing
> that up.
>
> Later.
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #2071] [Next #2073]

#2073 [2003-08-18 09:39:29]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women

by umaryu

Hi

if you would like to know about the history and life
of the geisha in the past and today I would suggest
'Geisha' by Liz Dalby.

Paul

--- "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
wrote:

---------------------------------
Why not ?

- Matt

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: James Eckman [mailto:FUGU@...]
Verzonden: zondag 17 augustus 2003 16:15
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [samuraihistory] Re: Samurai Women

>
>
> From: "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
>
>Could someone please explain to me what the

difference is (was) between

>a Geisha and a Courtisane ?
>
>

In many ways they are similar, but neither have
anything to do with
samurai women.

Jim

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#2074 [2003-08-18 07:35:56]

Re: Samurai Women

by James Eckman

Thinking about it, geisha are usually considered the upper crust of
entertainers, going down to the lowest which is a 'mat-girl'? can't
remember the Japanese for this and it could be an Edo-jidai term as
well. All she has is her clothes and a mat.

Jim

[Previous #2073] [Next #2075]

#2075 [2003-08-18 09:32:37]

Re: Straw hats

by miburo_saitoh

Speaking of straw hats, do they have a name? I have always wanted to
know the names of these chinese (?) hats, if they have one, or do
one calls them just "straw hats"?

Sam the Wolf of Mibu

[Previous #2074] [Next #2080]

#2080 [2003-08-18 23:35:58]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Straw hats

by umaryu

Hi

I think one of the names used is Amigasa

paul

--- Saitoh Hajime <the_sam_99@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Speaking of straw hats, do they have a name? I have
always wanted to
know the names of these chinese (?) hats, if they have
one, or do
one calls them just "straw hats"?

Sam the Wolf of Mibu

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#2088 [2003-08-21 03:39:38]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Straw hats

by deanwayland

The Japanese call them KASA, and they come in a wide variety of types
each with their own names, usually depending upon place of origin or
function, for example I've got one describe by the supplier as a "sando-
gasa". For fun see the modern replicas at;

http://http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/warring5.htm

Note: with the exception of the "ronin-gasa" and the "takuhatsu-gasa"
which seem to be entirely authentically made, all the others have an
internal plastic frame, which can be seen on the inside at the centre
only, enjoy:-)

Yours

Dean
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

[Previous #2080] [Next #4926]

#4926 [2004-07-29 04:29:35]

Samurai Women

by djinn djinn

I've attached my research as a word document, I am not sure if that works
with group mail but I guess I'll find out! Hopefully people will find
something interesting in it...

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#4927 [2004-07-29 04:43:49]

Re: [samuraihistory] Samurai Women

by ltdomer98

--- djinn djinn <x_djinn_x@...> wrote:

> I've attached my research as a word document, I am
> not sure if that works
> with group mail but I guess I'll find out! Hopefully
> people will find
> something interesting in it...

The list won't let you send attachments--a measure to
defeat spam.

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#4928 [2004-07-29 05:22:17]

Re: Samurai Women

by kitsuno

You can upload it to the Files section, and then let us know when it
is there:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/files

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "djinn djinn"
wrote:

> I've attached my research as a word document, I am not sure if that

works

> with group mail but I guess I'll find out! Hopefully people will

find

> something interesting in it...
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Searching for that dream home? Try

http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au for

> all your property needs.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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