>Possibly this is a nickname that only appears in English sources, see
>
> From: "Chris Danyael X" <danyael_x@...>
>
>
>Lion of the North? No thats more like Karl the 12th.
>
>
>>Time to crack the books again ;) I know from personal experience thatLucky dogs! American schools frankly teach very little history and don't
>>NONE of the juicy bits of history are taught in most grade schools.
>>
>>
>
>Not in Sweden, they teach it with a fair deal of gore and slaying to
>keep the class intrested.
>
>Fantastic Fact: Sweden is the only country in the world (to myThe French did the same, with the same results.
>knowledge) that has actually managed to conqer Russia, and Moscow.
>
>The Japanese military didnt evolv at all untill the meji revolution.Kind of my point with comparing the Tokugawa forces with armies of the
>Kinda stagnant for 400 years...
>
>
>From: "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>I know the jidai-geki answer (historical soap opera). They refused to
>
>Does anyone know why the Mongols tried to invade Japan ? They must have
>had a good reason as they tried twice in the late 13th cent ?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Eckman [mailto:FUGU@...]
> Sent: den 7 juni 2003 15:05
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 521
>
>
> >
> >
> > From: "Chris Danyael X" <danyael_x@...>
> >
> >
> >Lion of the North? No thats more like Karl the 12th.
> >
> >
> Possibly this is a nickname that only appears in English sources, see
> "The Dawn of Modern Warfare", West Point Military History Series. I
> don't know anything about Karl the 12th, but Gustavus was king in the
> 1630's during the 30 years war.
>
> >>Time to crack the books again ;) I know from personal
> experience that
> >>NONE of the juicy bits of history are taught in most grade schools.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Not in Sweden, they teach it with a fair deal of gore and slaying to
> >keep the class intrested.
> >
> Lucky dogs! American schools frankly teach very little
> history and don't
> do a very good job about what little they teach.
>
> >Fantastic Fact: Sweden is the only country in the world (to my
> >knowledge) that has actually managed to conqer Russia, and Moscow.
> >
> The French did the same, with the same results.
>
> >The Japanese military didnt evolv at all untill the meji revolution.
> >Kinda stagnant for 400 years...
> >
> >
> Kind of my point with comparing the Tokugawa forces with
> armies of the
> 30 years war in Europe. Mobile artillery would be a very bad
> surprise.
> Of course it gets even worse as time passes.
>
> >From: "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
> >
> >Does anyone know why the Mongols tried to invade Japan ?
> They must have
> >had a good reason as they tried twice in the late 13th cent ?
> >
> >
> I know the jidai-geki answer (historical soap opera). They refused to
> submit to the Khan and I think the Khan wanted to kill off
> some Korean
> conscripts as well as drain Korea of money so Korea (Korai
> sp?) would be
> less troublesome to rule. I'm not really sure if Japan really had any
> other importance other than as a method to drain subject states of
> excessive manpower.
>
> Jim Eckman
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your
> Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
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>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------~->
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> From: James Eckman [mailto:FUGU@...]
> Sent: den 7 juni 2003 15:05
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 521
>
>
> >
> >
> > From: "Chris Danyael X" <danyael_x@...>
> >
> >
> >Lion of the North? No thats more like Karl the 12th.
> >
> >
> Possibly this is a nickname that only appears in English sources, see
> "The Dawn of Modern Warfare", West Point Military History Series. I
> don't know anything about Karl the 12th, but Gustavus was king in the
> 1630's during the 30 years war.
>
> >>Time to crack the books again ;) I know from personal
> experience that
> >>NONE of the juicy bits of history are taught in most grade schools.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Not in Sweden, they teach it with a fair deal of gore and slaying to
> >keep the class intrested.
> >
> Lucky dogs! American schools frankly teach very little
> history and don't
> do a very good job about what little they teach.
>
> >Fantastic Fact: Sweden is the only country in the world (to my
> >knowledge) that has actually managed to conqer Russia, and Moscow.
> >
> The French did the same, with the same results.
>
> >The Japanese military didnt evolv at all untill the meji revolution.
> >Kinda stagnant for 400 years...
> >
> >
> Kind of my point with comparing the Tokugawa forces with
> armies of the
> 30 years war in Europe. Mobile artillery would be a very bad
> surprise.
> Of course it gets even worse as time passes.
>
> >From: "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
> >
> >Does anyone know why the Mongols tried to invade Japan ?
> They must have
> >had a good reason as they tried twice in the late 13th cent ?
> >
> >
> I know the jidai-geki answer (historical soap opera). They refused to
> submit to the Khan and I think the Khan wanted to kill off
> some Korean
> conscripts as well as drain Korea of money so Korea (Korai
> sp?) would be
> less troublesome to rule. I'm not really sure if Japan really had any
> other importance other than as a method to drain subject states of
> excessive manpower.
>
> Jim Eckman
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your
> Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA> /BcOolB/TM
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------~->
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Burker1@... [mailto:Burker1@...]
> Sent: den 8 juni 2003 04:23
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 521
>
>
> It's not always just a matter of one's "point of view". Some
> people/groups
> are evil per se, the Nazis being a prime example.
>
> Bob Burke
> -----Original Message-----Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> From: Burker1@... [mailto:Burker1@...]
> Sent: den 8 juni 2003 04:23
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 521
>
>
> It's not always just a matter of one's "point of view". Some
> people/groups
> are evil per se, the Nazis being a prime example.
>
> Bob Burke
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Danyael X
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 9:42 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Seriously OT: The concept of Evil...
I beg to differ.
They are not evil. Just plain stupid in my view.
I dont belive in pure/diluted evil. I think that is a figment of the
christian church imagination.
Hitler was insane, yes. He hurt/killed alot of people and suronded
himself with people of the same belief.
Besides, there is no really good definition on what evil is.
Is one Evil for wanting to kill some one?
Is one Evil for wanting world domination?
Is one Evil for wanting to make money at any cost?
Is one Evil for wanting to hurt someone ?
But what about the reason of these desires?
What is the cause of them? And what will be the effect of them?
During the mideval ages, Evil was everyone who opposed the church, since
they were in liason with the devil. If you said something that differd
from the church doctrin, say the earth is not the center of the univers,
or the earth is not flat. Then you were evil and in liason with the
devil.
If you were an unknown coutry with black/yellow/red/blue/green skin
colur, with unknown kultural standards and belief. You were evil
heretics until you accepted jesus christ savior bla bla..
Until then you made good slaves, and colonies. Teh concept of Evil was
used as a method of control.
One could say that the British Empire was Evil, for using Opium to force
china into submission.
Some People I know say that USA is evil for interfering with other
states internal buissness.
Like getting Noriega (he was a CIA operative, but defekted after he got
elected) elected president and then assainated. USA put Pinochet into
power, and as such made life a living hell for alot of people.
There are always a cause and an effect. This to is important to
remember.
Take the now famous 9/11 incident.
The most elaborate, complex and best executed guerilla opperaiton ever
peformed by terrorists. Now why on earth would some one want to kill off
five to seven thousand people in a building?
Basically to make a point. The terrorists didnt care about the people in
the buildings, that only came as a bounus. It was what those buildings
represented that matterd. It was an awfull act, and persoanly I was in
chock for three days. I have relatives in the states so naturally I was
concernd.
Was that an evil act? If you ask the americans, it was definatly the
ultimate and purest Evil. But it was nothing but a political statement
from a group of people who thinks that USA should butt out of their
internal buissness.
I mean come on! Do you really think that the midle east is a new
problem? Hell no!
It has been a hodgepodge of assorted violence and territorial aggression
for over 5000 years. And the only difference now from then is that they
have the capacity to wipe each other out totally.
They are pissed off at the americans/allied for getting involved in a
several thousand year old conflict, and were telling them, and any other
nation that might get the idea to get involved to "stay the fuck away"
(pardon my language). If you dont, we will make sure that you feel the
effects of your actions in our home, at your home.
So the cause to ther 9/11 effect was all the acumulated actions the
USA/Allied had done in the past concentrated in one opretaion.
The effect after 9/11?
USA bombed two countries back to the darkages, and what to continue with
Iran.
Is USA Evil for doing so? Oh no would most people say, they are only
defending themself from evil.
Yeah, but you have to considerd what the other side will say about this.
They say that they were defending themself from the ultimate purest form
of Evil. Gerorge W Bush Junior the apostel of satan. Sounds familliar?
Now, we are all friendly peacefull people, arent we?
I say everything is a matter of point of view. And in most cases,
economics and religion are the major contributers to so called "evil"
events. And in a few cases insanity with a little help from economics
and religon can end up in disatorus events. Like the world wars,
Togukawa regime and emperor Xiang of china. The guy who united al of
china and built the great wall of china. He did kill a lott of people,
was a cruel bastard, and probably slightly YoYo in the head. But he did
unite china, and gave it a very stable future. Evil or not? Point of
view.
(BTW, I have _no_ idea how to spell Xiang's name, I'm guessing this is
correct)
The other question we must ask ourself is this.
Does the means justify the goal?
or does the goal justify the means?
Emperor Xiang probably thought that if he united the people of what was
to be "China", a period of peace and prosperity would come. And the
country would flourish in the fields of science and economics. But it
would all come at a high price. He aparently thought it was worth it.
My point in all of this rambling is this.
1. Evil is a matter of point of view.
2. History is written by those who survive and comes out on top of
things.
3. Does the goal justefy the means, and does the means justify the goal.
4. Evil is a word used to describe "the others" in a way to de humanise
the opposit side.
And as such I do not belive in evil, deluted or pure, it does not matter
for it is all a point o view.
For it is all just the effect of a prior event.
/// Chris the agnostic realist
"We are friendly peacfull people. we're not the ones out there causing
troubble"
-The streets "Irony of it all" (as I was saying it is just a point of
view -C)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Burker1@... [mailto:Burker1@...]
> Sent: den 8 juni 2003 04:23
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 521
>
>
> It's not always just a matter of one's "point of view". Some
> people/groups
> are evil per se, the Nazis being a prime example.
>
> Bob Burke
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
---
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carlo Tacchini [mailto:TSUBAME1@...]
> Sent: den 8 juni 2003 21:23
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: R: [samuraihistory] Seriously OT: The concept of Evil...
>
>
> Quote..
> ''it was nothing but a political statement from a group of
> people who thinks that USA should butt out of their internal
> buissness.'' ...unquote.
>
> Political statement ? If this is the way to be politicians,
> lets go to nuclear disarm using the surplus for wipe out all
> the muslim countries concerned. Is this you means as
> ''political statement'' ? It was a massacre of innocent
> people. And blood call blood. If terrorists do not stop
> themselves, nor Israeli neither USA have to stop bombing. The
> problem is to properly choose the target avoiding the same
> atrocities. When muslim will stop to consider medieval
> doctrine as a must for the today's world, we will stop to
> consider B2B and Merkava as a solution.
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: Chris Danyael X [mailto:danyael_x@...]
> Inviato: domenica 8 giugno 2003 18.42
> A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: [samuraihistory] Seriously OT: The concept of Evil...
>
>
> I beg to differ.
>
> They are not evil. Just plain stupid in my view.
> I dont belive in pure/diluted evil. I think that is a figment
> of the christian church imagination. Hitler was insane, yes.
> He hurt/killed alot of people and suronded himself with
> people of the same belief.
>
> Besides, there is no really good definition on what evil is.
> Is one Evil for wanting to kill some one?
> Is one Evil for wanting world domination?
> Is one Evil for wanting to make money at any cost?
> Is one Evil for wanting to hurt someone ?
>
> But what about the reason of these desires?
> What is the cause of them? And what will be the effect of them?
>
> During the mideval ages, Evil was everyone who opposed the
> church, since they were in liason with the devil. If you said
> something that differd from the church doctrin, say the earth
> is not the center of the univers, or the earth is not flat.
> Then you were evil and in liason with the devil.
> If you were an unknown coutry with
> black/yellow/red/blue/green skin colur, with unknown kultural
> standards and belief. You were evil heretics until you
> accepted jesus christ savior bla bla.. Until then you made
> good slaves, and colonies. Teh concept of Evil was used as a
> method of control.
>
> One could say that the British Empire was Evil, for using
> Opium to force china into submission.
>
>
> Some People I know say that USA is evil for interfering with
> other states internal buissness. Like getting Noriega (he was
> a CIA operative, but defekted after he got
> elected) elected president and then assainated. USA put
> Pinochet into power, and as such made life a living hell for
> alot of people.
>
> There are always a cause and an effect. This to is important
> to remember.
>
> Take the now famous 9/11 incident.
> The most elaborate, complex and best executed guerilla
> opperaiton ever peformed by terrorists. Now why on earth
> would some one want to kill off five to seven thousand people
> in a building?
> Basically to make a point. The terrorists didnt care about
> the people in the buildings, that only came as a bounus. It
> was what those buildings represented that matterd. It was an
> awfull act, and persoanly I was in chock for three days. I
> have relatives in the states so naturally I was concernd.
>
> Was that an evil act? If you ask the americans, it was
> definatly the ultimate and purest Evil. But it was nothing
> but a political statement from a group of people who thinks
> that USA should butt out of their internal buissness.
> I mean come on! Do you really think that the midle east is a
> new problem? Hell no! It has been a hodgepodge of assorted
> violence and territorial aggression for over 5000 years. And
> the only difference now from then is that they have the
> capacity to wipe each other out totally. They are pissed off
> at the americans/allied for getting involved in a several
> thousand year old conflict, and were telling them, and any
> other nation that might get the idea to get involved to "stay
> the fuck away" (pardon my language). If you dont, we will
> make sure that you feel the effects of your actions in our
> home, at your home.
>
> So the cause to ther 9/11 effect was all the acumulated
> actions the USA/Allied had done in the past concentrated in
> one opretaion.
> The effect after 9/11?
> USA bombed two countries back to the darkages, and what to
> continue with Iran. Is USA Evil for doing so? Oh no would
> most people say, they are only defending themself from evil.
> Yeah, but you have to considerd what the other side will say
> about this.
>
> They say that they were defending themself from the ultimate
> purest form of Evil. Gerorge W Bush Junior the apostel of
> satan. Sounds familliar?
>
> Now, we are all friendly peacefull people, arent we?
>
> I say everything is a matter of point of view. And in most
> cases, economics and religion are the major contributers to
> so called "evil" events. And in a few cases insanity with a
> little help from economics and religon can end up in
> disatorus events. Like the world wars, Togukawa regime and
> emperor Xiang of china. The guy who united al of china and
> built the great wall of china. He did kill a lott of people,
> was a cruel bastard, and probably slightly YoYo in the head.
> But he did unite china, and gave it a very stable future.
> Evil or not? Point of view.
> (BTW, I have _no_ idea how to spell Xiang's name, I'm guessing this is
> correct)
>
> The other question we must ask ourself is this.
> Does the means justify the goal?
> or does the goal justify the means?
> Emperor Xiang probably thought that if he united the people
> of what was to be "China", a period of peace and prosperity
> would come. And the country would flourish in the fields of
> science and economics. But it would all come at a high price.
> He aparently thought it was worth it.
>
> My point in all of this rambling is this.
> 1. Evil is a matter of point of view.
> 2. History is written by those who survive and comes out on
> top of things. 3. Does the goal justefy the means, and does
> the means justify the goal. 4. Evil is a word used to
> describe "the others" in a way to de humanise the opposit side.
>
> And as such I do not belive in evil, deluted or pure, it does
> not matter for it is all a point o view. For it is all just
> the effect of a prior event.
>
> /// Chris the agnostic realist
>
> "We are friendly peacfull people. we're not the ones out
> there causing troubble" -The streets "Irony of it all" (as I
> was saying it is just a point of view -C)
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Burker1@... [mailto:Burker1@...]
> > Sent: den 8 juni 2003 04:23
> > To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 521
> >
> >
> > It's not always just a matter of one's "point of view". Some
> > people/groups
> > are evil per se, the Nazis being a prime example.
> >
> > Bob Burke
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your
> Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA> /BcOolB/TM
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------~->
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Quaresma" <gquaresma@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Seriously OT: The concept of Evil... (this is
a long one...)
> Where does this social protocal come from. My point is that social
protocol from you might be different then what it is from me. So how do
disagreements get worked out. If there is no moral bases for us both to
live by, then we both can live however we chose, and not be responsible to
anyone or anything because we live according to our own needs, wants,
culture, up bringing, whatever. Your logic is flawed, you state that there
is a social protocol we must adhere too in one statement, and then you go on
to state that each culture has its own standard by which to live by. So I
guess in your logic I (being a country) can invade you (being another
country) for reason that are only believed or adhered too by my country and
be in the right. Or I being a thief can invade your house and still money
and say that society did it to me, I need to steal to survive, and not get
punished. Thank God there is a an ultimate moral truth or there would be
complete anarchy.
>
> How are the world wars an example of the moral codes being bent. They
where unjust acts that where wrong. Simple as that, it doesnt take rocket
science to figure out that killing millions of people is evil.
>
> The commandment is Thou shall not murder.
>
> Its always easier to do evil then good, and people are by nature going to
do wrong before they do good. But then again according to your logic there
is no good or evil because we all have different opinions.
>
> Regards,
> Greg Quaresma
>
> gquaresma@...
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Kocot [mailto:dmkocot@...]
> Sent: den 9 juni 2003 07:12
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Seriously OT: The concept of
> Evil... (this is a long one...)
>
>
> Folks,
>
> Can we please take this "Seriously OT" topic off the list?
>
> If any of us want to discuss the nature of evil, the validity
> of Christianity, modern geopolitics, or whether or not the
> moon is made out of cheese, there are plenty of other
> yahoogroups on those very topics.
>
> Thank you.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg Quaresma" <gquaresma@...>
> To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 8:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Seriously OT: The concept of
> Evil... (this is a long one...)
>
>
> > Where does this social protocal come from. My point is that social
> protocol from you might be different then what it is from me.
> So how do disagreements get worked out. If there is no
> moral bases for us both to live by, then we both can live
> however we chose, and not be responsible to anyone or
> anything because we live according to our own needs, wants,
> culture, up bringing, whatever. Your logic is flawed, you
> state that there is a social protocol we must adhere too in
> one statement, and then you go on to state that each culture
> has its own standard by which to live by. So I guess in your
> logic I (being a country) can invade you (being another
> country) for reason that are only believed or adhered too by
> my country and be in the right. Or I being a thief can
> invade your house and still money and say that society did it
> to me, I need to steal to survive, and not get punished.
> Thank God there is a an ultimate moral truth or there would
> be complete anarchy.
> >
> > How are the world wars an example of the moral codes being
> bent. They
> where unjust acts that where wrong. Simple as that, it
> doesnt take rocket science to figure out that killing
> millions of people is evil.
> >
> > The commandment is Thou shall not murder.
> >
> > Its always easier to do evil then good, and people are by
> nature going
> > to
> do wrong before they do good. But then again according to
> your logic there is no good or evil because we all have
> different opinions.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg Quaresma
> >
> > gquaresma@...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> From: Carlo Tacchini [mailto:TSUBAME1@...]
> Sent: den 8 juni 2003 21:23
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: R: [samuraihistory] Seriously OT: The concept of Evil...
>
>
> Quote..
> ''it was nothing but a political statement from a group of
> people who thinks that USA should butt out of their internal
> buissness.'' ...unquote.
>
> Political statement ? If this is the way to be politicians,
> lets go to nuclear disarm using the surplus for wipe out all
> the muslim countries concerned. Is this you means as
> ''political statement'' ? It was a massacre of innocent
> people. And blood call blood. If terrorists do not stop
> themselves, nor Israeli neither USA have to stop bombing. The
> problem is to properly choose the target avoiding the same
> atrocities. When muslim will stop to consider medieval
> doctrine as a must for the today's world, we will stop to
> consider B2B and Merkava as a solution.
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: Chris Danyael X [mailto:danyael_x@...]
> Inviato: domenica 8 giugno 2003 18.42
> A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: [samuraihistory] Seriously OT: The concept of Evil...
>
>
> I beg to differ.
>
> They are not evil. Just plain stupid in my view.
> I dont belive in pure/diluted evil. I think that is a figment
> of the christian church imagination. Hitler was insane, yes.
> He hurt/killed alot of people and suronded himself with
> people of the same belief.
>
> Besides, there is no really good definition on what evil is.
> Is one Evil for wanting to kill some one?
> Is one Evil for wanting world domination?
> Is one Evil for wanting to make money at any cost?
> Is one Evil for wanting to hurt someone ?
>
> But what about the reason of these desires?
> What is the cause of them? And what will be the effect of them?
>
> During the mideval ages, Evil was everyone who opposed the
> church, since they were in liason with the devil. If you said
> something that differd from the church doctrin, say the earth
> is not the center of the univers, or the earth is not flat.
> Then you were evil and in liason with the devil.
> If you were an unknown coutry with
> black/yellow/red/blue/green skin colur, with unknown kultural
> standards and belief. You were evil heretics until you
> accepted jesus christ savior bla bla.. Until then you made
> good slaves, and colonies. Teh concept of Evil was used as a
> method of control.
>
> One could say that the British Empire was Evil, for using
> Opium to force china into submission.
>
>
> Some People I know say that USA is evil for interfering with
> other states internal buissness. Like getting Noriega (he was
> a CIA operative, but defekted after he got
> elected) elected president and then assainated. USA put
> Pinochet into power, and as such made life a living hell for
> alot of people.
>
> There are always a cause and an effect. This to is important
> to remember.
>
> Take the now famous 9/11 incident.
> The most elaborate, complex and best executed guerilla
> opperaiton ever peformed by terrorists. Now why on earth
> would some one want to kill off five to seven thousand people
> in a building?
> Basically to make a point. The terrorists didnt care about
> the people in the buildings, that only came as a bounus. It
> was what those buildings represented that matterd. It was an
> awfull act, and persoanly I was in chock for three days. I
> have relatives in the states so naturally I was concernd.
>
> Was that an evil act? If you ask the americans, it was
> definatly the ultimate and purest Evil. But it was nothing
> but a political statement from a group of people who thinks
> that USA should butt out of their internal buissness.
> I mean come on! Do you really think that the midle east is a
> new problem? Hell no! It has been a hodgepodge of assorted
> violence and territorial aggression for over 5000 years. And
> the only difference now from then is that they have the
> capacity to wipe each other out totally. They are pissed off
> at the americans/allied for getting involved in a several
> thousand year old conflict, and were telling them, and any
> other nation that might get the idea to get involved to "stay
> the fuck away" (pardon my language). If you dont, we will
> make sure that you feel the effects of your actions in our
> home, at your home.
>
> So the cause to ther 9/11 effect was all the acumulated
> actions the USA/Allied had done in the past concentrated in
> one opretaion.
> The effect after 9/11?
> USA bombed two countries back to the darkages, and what to
> continue with Iran. Is USA Evil for doing so? Oh no would
> most people say, they are only defending themself from evil.
> Yeah, but you have to considerd what the other side will say
> about this.
>
> They say that they were defending themself from the ultimate
> purest form of Evil. Gerorge W Bush Junior the apostel of
> satan. Sounds familliar?
>
> Now, we are all friendly peacefull people, arent we?
>
> I say everything is a matter of point of view. And in most
> cases, economics and religion are the major contributers to
> so called "evil" events. And in a few cases insanity with a
> little help from economics and religon can end up in
> disatorus events. Like the world wars, Togukawa regime and
> emperor Xiang of china. The guy who united al of china and
> built the great wall of china. He did kill a lott of people,
> was a cruel bastard, and probably slightly YoYo in the head.
> But he did unite china, and gave it a very stable future.
> Evil or not? Point of view.
> (BTW, I have _no_ idea how to spell Xiang's name, I'm guessing this is
> correct)
>
> The other question we must ask ourself is this.
> Does the means justify the goal?
> or does the goal justify the means?
> Emperor Xiang probably thought that if he united the people
> of what was to be "China", a period of peace and prosperity
> would come. And the country would flourish in the fields of
> science and economics. But it would all come at a high price.
> He aparently thought it was worth it.
>
> My point in all of this rambling is this.
> 1. Evil is a matter of point of view.
> 2. History is written by those who survive and comes out on
> top of things. 3. Does the goal justefy the means, and does
> the means justify the goal. 4. Evil is a word used to
> describe "the others" in a way to de humanise the opposit side.
>
> And as such I do not belive in evil, deluted or pure, it does
> not matter for it is all a point o view. For it is all just
> the effect of a prior event.
>
> /// Chris the agnostic realist
>
> "We are friendly peacfull people. we're not the ones out
> there causing troubble" -The streets "Irony of it all" (as I
> was saying it is just a point of view -C)
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Burker1@... [mailto:Burker1@...]
> > Sent: den 8 juni 2003 04:23
> > To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Digest Number 521
> >
> >
> > It's not always just a matter of one's "point of view". Some
> > people/groups
> > are evil per se, the Nazis being a prime example.
> >
> > Bob Burke
>
>
>
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