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4th Kawanakajima

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#1580 [2003-03-18 14:39:13]

4th Kawanakajima

by samuariempath

I bid you all greetings, I have just arrived but I will just into the
present question without delay.

Of the research I have done in the fields of War, politcial, milatary
and cultural history of Japan there is very little dispute that it
was in fact Kenshin, some sources even have him named Kagetoura, but
indeed they did meet though, face to face only that once.

I hope that was of some help, though it may not have been as
discriptive as it could have been

Atsi

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#1581 [2003-03-18 18:49:18]

Re: 4th Kawanakajima

by kitsuno

I find it very doubtful. I finally got myself a copy of the 'Koyo
Gunkan' - I have the book 'legends of the Samurai', and I found it in
the bibliography and ordered it off Amazon.co.jp (Koyo Gunkan, Edited
and translated into modern Japanese by Yukata Yoshida). It has both
the original text and the modern japanese 'translation'. I can't
hope to read the original text, but the 'modern' japanese version
says: "Ato de kikeba, kono Musha koso Terutora de atta to iu." That
doesn't sound too convincing to me. Here is a translation I did from
another book, "Sengoku Bushou Omoshiro Jiten", Naramoto Tatsuya, 1998:

"This is the same famous scene from books and movies; The warrior in
the white cowl is Kenshin, and Shingen's warfan bore eight sword
cuts. However, there are historical records that have been
discovered that dispute this personal combat. It is the 'Kenshin
Nenpu' (Kenshin Chronological Record), which states Arakawa Izu no
Kami rides at Shingen, shingen cant draw his sword and instead blocks
with his fan, and Hara Oosumi no Kami steps forward with a spear and
strikes at the rider, missing him but hitting the horse, startling
it. The rider fled"

It goes on to say:

"In short, it is thought that the man that Shingen fought at
Kawanakajima was Kenshin's kagemusha, Arakawa Izu no Kami. Also,
according to the "Hokuetsu Gunki", Shingen recieved a visit from a
monk by the name of Tenkai who would later become and advisor to
Ieyasu, and he told him that "the man who crossed swords with Kenshin
was not me, but someone who looks like/resembles me."

So Shingen said that it was his Kagemusha that fought with Kenshin,
not himself. Therefore, there is also the possiblity that they were
BOTH kagemusha. Kenshin and Shingen were both worthy opponents who
had never seen eachother's face. That may have also added to the
confusion as well. Although the personal combat between Kenshin and
Shingen is recorded in the Koyo Gunkan, however in truth, there isn't
any evidence to support this."

Based on the above, you have to wonder if Kenshin and Shingen ever
really DID fight...




--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Atisi Kazuari"
wrote:
> I bid you all greetings, I have just arrived but I will just into
the
> present question without delay.
>
> Of the research I have done in the fields of War, politcial,
milatary
> and cultural history of Japan there is very little dispute that it
> was in fact Kenshin, some sources even have him named Kagetoura,
but
> indeed they did meet though, face to face only that once.
>
> I hope that was of some help, though it may not have been as
> discriptive as it could have been
>
> Atsi

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#1582 [2003-03-18 19:51:32]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: 4th Kawanakajima

by holydemon13

Hey there, y'all.
It's me again. Just wondering something. In some of the things I have
read, although where escapes me, I have seen it attributed to Uesugi Kenshin
and Takeda Shingen that they were great rivals with each other. The evidence
y'all have presented paints a somewhat different picture. Did they ever
battle each other than the Kawanakajima series of battles? And another
question: what's a Kagemusha? (Or an "onimusha" for that matter -- other
than the incredible video game series.) And this Arakawa Izu no Kami -- am I
correct, from what I've learned from the Samurai Archives site, in
translating this to mean Arakawa, Lord of Izu? Just wondering. :-) Thanks,
y'all. Y'all are a wonderful help to me to understand this fascinating
period and place in history, especially since the story I'm writing's set in
it. :-D Thanks again. :-D

Later.
Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#1584 [2003-03-19 13:23:12]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: 4th Kawanakajima

by Francisco Manuel Luna Zapata

Hello Tim:
I can answer your second questión What is Kagemusha? the meaning of word
kagesmusha is the Shadow of the warrior. Kagemusha is name of greats movie
of the japanese Akira Kurozawa. Is a good movie and it can help you to
answer more question about this word.


good luck
francisco luna from Colombia






>From: Eponymous13@...
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: 4th Kawanakajima
>Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:51:32 EST
>
>Hey there, y'all.
> It's me again. Just wondering something. In some of the things I have
>read, although where escapes me, I have seen it attributed to Uesugi
>Kenshin
>and Takeda Shingen that they were great rivals with each other. The
>evidence
>y'all have presented paints a somewhat different picture. Did they ever
>battle each other than the Kawanakajima series of battles? And another
>question: what's a Kagemusha? (Or an "onimusha" for that matter -- other
>than the incredible video game series.) And this Arakawa Izu no Kami -- am
>I
>correct, from what I've learned from the Samurai Archives site, in
>translating this to mean Arakawa, Lord of Izu? Just wondering. :-)
>Thanks,
>y'all. Y'all are a wonderful help to me to understand this fascinating
>period and place in history, especially since the story I'm writing's set
>in
>it. :-D Thanks again. :-D
>
>Later.
>Tim
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


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#1585 [2003-03-19 15:14:49]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: 4th Kawanakajima

by sengokudaimyo

Kagemusha: Basically, it's a body double. Saddam Hussein is currently famous for having
about ten kagemusha who make public appearances for him so he doesn't have to take the
risks.

There's a scene in Henry IV, Part Two during a battle where Hotspur, wondering where the
king is, rages that he has killed four Henrys already yet hasn't found the king.
Apparently, it's an old trick.

Tony

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