Question regarding Otate no Ran

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone knew where Otate castle was within Echigo--I'm assuming it was within Echigo. A map would be great, but a general sense would be fine too.

Also, does anyone know how the hostilities began between Kagetora and Kagekatsu? Kenshin dies in early 1578... and does conflict break out immediately, or is it more gradual? Kagetora ends up committing suicide in 1579.

There is very little information on this conflict, even though it essentially marks the end of all Uesugi expansion, while simultaneously allowing Oda expansion from Echizen through to Ecchu.

thanks!
-dennis

Otate is 御館. Think of it as a word like "White House" - it refers to where Kenshin originally had his Kanto Kanrei offices. The location is Kasugayama Castle - modern day Joetsu City in Niigata.

If you put these coordinates into Google Maps it will give you a sense of where this is today:
37.146689,138.205553

Hope others can help on the sibling rivalry part!

On Aug 21, 2011, at 8:14 PM, zenblade12 wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew where Otate castle was within Echigo--I'm assuming it was within Echigo. A map would be great, but a general sense would be fine too.
>
> Also, does anyone know how the hostilities began between Kagetora and Kagekatsu? Kenshin dies in early 1578... and does conflict break out immediately, or is it more gradual? Kagetora ends up committing suicide in 1579.
>
> There is very little information on this conflict, even though it essentially marks the end of all Uesugi expansion, while simultaneously allowing Oda expansion from Echizen through to Ecchu.
>
> thanks!
> -dennis
>
>
>

Thanks for the response, Oyakata.
Someone else had told me something similar with regards to the physical location...
But this then suggests that Kagekatsu and Kagetora were both situated in a basically identical physical location during this conflict...

Which then begs the question, why did it take about a year to resolve the conflict/fighting?

Anyone have some insights? Kagetora (according to Samurai Archives, which is a great source as you all know) gets at least some support from Uesugi retainers during this time... but was the conflict mostly just a cold war with little in the way of actual combat?

thanks again everyone,
-dennis

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:
>
> Otate is 蠕｡鬢ｨ. Think of it as a word like "White House" - it refers to where Kenshin originally had his Kanto Kanrei offices. The location is Kasugayama Castle - modern day Joetsu City in Niigata.
>
> If you put these coordinates into Google Maps it will give you a sense of where this is today:
> 37.146689,138.205553
>
> Hope others can help on the sibling rivalry part!
>
>
> On Aug 21, 2011, at 8:14 PM, zenblade12 wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone knew where Otate castle was within Echigo--I'm assuming it was within Echigo. A map would be great, but a general sense would be fine too.
> >
> > Also, does anyone know how the hostilities began between Kagetora and Kagekatsu? Kenshin dies in early 1578... and does conflict break out immediately, or is it more gradual? Kagetora ends up committing suicide in 1579.
> >
> > There is very little information on this conflict, even though it essentially marks the end of all Uesugi expansion, while simultaneously allowing Oda expansion from Echizen through to Ecchu.
> >
> > thanks!
> > -dennis
> >
> >
> >
>

Personally i am not that familiar with this episode. But this exchange has sparked my interest in this topic. I look forward to reading more about this.

If i come across anything interesting in my reading, I will let the group know.

On Aug 29, 2011, at 9:55 AM, zenblade12 wrote:

> Thanks for the response, Oyakata.
> Someone else had told me something similar with regards to the physical location...
> But this then suggests that Kagekatsu and Kagetora were both situated in a basically identical physical location during this conflict...
>
> Which then begs the question, why did it take about a year to resolve the conflict/fighting?
>
> Anyone have some insights? Kagetora (according to Samurai Archives, which is a great source as you all know) gets at least some support from Uesugi retainers during this time... but was the conflict mostly just a cold war with little in the way of actual combat?
>
> thanks again everyone,
> -dennis
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:
>>
>> Otate is 蠕｡鬢ｨ. Think of it as a word like "White House" - it refers to where Kenshin originally had his Kanto Kanrei offices. The location is Kasugayama Castle - modern day Joetsu City in Niigata.
>>
>> If you put these coordinates into Google Maps it will give you a sense of where this is today:
>> 37.146689,138.205553
>>
>> Hope others can help on the sibling rivalry part!
>>
>>
>> On Aug 21, 2011, at 8:14 PM, zenblade12 wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I was wondering if anyone knew where Otate castle was within Echigo--I'm assuming it was within Echigo. A map would be great, but a general sense would be fine too.
>>>
>>> Also, does anyone know how the hostilities began between Kagetora and Kagekatsu? Kenshin dies in early 1578... and does conflict break out immediately, or is it more gradual? Kagetora ends up committing suicide in 1579.
>>>
>>> There is very little information on this conflict, even though it essentially marks the end of all Uesugi expansion, while simultaneously allowing Oda expansion from Echizen through to Ecchu.
>>>
>>> thanks!
>>> -dennis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
> Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest: http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Any one ever herd of mitori if so please let me no

On 9/2/11, Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:
> Personally i am not that familiar with this episode. But this exchange has
> sparked my interest in this topic. I look forward to reading more about
> this.
>
> If i come across anything interesting in my reading, I will let the group
> know.
>
>
> On Aug 29, 2011, at 9:55 AM, zenblade12 wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the response, Oyakata.
>> Someone else had told me something similar with regards to the physical
>> location...
>> But this then suggests that Kagekatsu and Kagetora were both situated in a
>> basically identical physical location during this conflict...
>>
>> Which then begs the question, why did it take about a year to resolve the
>> conflict/fighting?
>>
>> Anyone have some insights? Kagetora (according to Samurai Archives, which
>> is a great source as you all know) gets at least some support from Uesugi
>> retainers during this time... but was the conflict mostly just a cold war
>> with little in the way of actual combat?
>>
>> thanks again everyone,
>> -dennis
>>
>> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:
>>>
>>> Otate is 蠕｡鬢ｨ. Think of it as a word like "White House" - it refers to
>>> where Kenshin originally had his Kanto Kanrei offices. The location is
>>> Kasugayama Castle - modern day Joetsu City in Niigata.
>>>
>>> If you put these coordinates into Google Maps it will give you a sense of
>>> where this is today:
>>> 37.146689,138.205553
>>>
>>> Hope others can help on the sibling rivalry part!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 21, 2011, at 8:14 PM, zenblade12 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if anyone knew where Otate castle was within Echigo--I'm
>>>> assuming it was within Echigo. A map would be great, but a general
>>>> sense would be fine too.
>>>>
>>>> Also, does anyone know how the hostilities began between Kagetora and
>>>> Kagekatsu? Kenshin dies in early 1578... and does conflict break out
>>>> immediately, or is it more gradual? Kagetora ends up committing
>>>> suicide in 1579.
>>>>
>>>> There is very little information on this conflict, even though it
>>>> essentially marks the end of all Uesugi expansion, while simultaneously
>>>> allowing Oda expansion from Echizen through to Ecchu.
>>>>
>>>> thanks!
>>>> -dennis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> ---
>> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>> ---
>>
>> Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
>> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
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