Question: Sins and Virtues

I have a question, and please be gentle, it's not really a history question in the truest sense.

The Question: Do Samurai have Sins?

I ask this because I'm trying to research them, and all I come across is Samurai Virtues. That's fine I guess- I'm a budding writer and you need to know the good things to, but for the life of me I can't find the appropriate list of matching Sins.

Christianity as a whole has Sins and Virtues, as do most religions and cultures in the world. They always come as a matching pair. So if Samurai have Virtues based on Bushido and the like, it would stand to reason they have Sins, too. But I can't find them.

So...do they exist, and I'm just missing them? If so, does anybody know what they are?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Junshin" wrote:

>
> I have a question, and please be gentle, it's not really a history question in the truest sense.
>
> The Question: Do Samurai have Sins?
>
> I ask this because I'm trying to research them, and all I come across is Samurai Virtues. That's fine I guess- I'm a budding writer and you need to know the good things to, but for the life of me I can't find the appropriate list of matching Sins.
>
> Christianity as a whole has Sins and Virtues, as do most religions and cultures in the world. They always come as a matching pair. So if Samurai have Virtues based on Bushido and the like, it would stand to reason they have Sins, too. But I can't find them.
>
> So...do they exist, and I'm just missing them? If so, does anybody know what they are?
>

Setting aside the debate about whether Samurai ever really "followed Bushido" for a moment - take whatever virtues you've found, and wouldn't the opposite be the "sin"? I don't think "sin" in a secular medieval Japanese context is the right word though - not to mention, Bushido is definitely not a religion, although the impression I get is that some modern Western martial artists will little knowledge of Japanese history treat it like it is.

You would be better off asking if Japanese culture has "sins" and how that
influenced the ethos of bushi culture. I recommend looking up the word
"tsumi".

On Aug 16, 2011 6:13 PM, "Junshin" <snowkane@...> wrote:
> I have a question, and please be gentle, it's not really a history
question in the truest sense.
>
> The Question: Do Samurai have Sins?
>
> I ask this because I'm trying to research them, and all I come across is
Samurai Virtues. That's fine I guess- I'm a budding writer and you need to
know the good things to, but for the life of me I can't find the appropriate
list of matching Sins.
>
> Christianity as a whole has Sins and Virtues, as do most religions and
cultures in the world. They always come as a matching pair. So if Samurai
have Virtues based on Bushido and the like, it would stand to reason they
have Sins, too. But I can't find them.
>
> So...do they exist, and I'm just missing them? If so, does anybody know
what they are?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
> Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think the word "sin" is really a christian terminology...
perhaps in Bushido you have "honor" and those "without honor".
a samurai in ancient times would ask "what is sin?"

On 8/16/2011 3:17 PM, kitsuno wrote:
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> , "Junshin" wrote:
> >
> > I have a question, and please be gentle, it's not really a history
> question in the truest sense.
> >
> > The Question: Do Samurai have Sins?
> >
> > I ask this because I'm trying to research them, and all I come
> across is Samurai Virtues. That's fine I guess- I'm a budding writer
> and you need to know the good things to, but for the life of me I
> can't find the appropriate list of matching Sins.
> >
> > Christianity as a whole has Sins and Virtues, as do most religions
> and cultures in the world. They always come as a matching pair. So if
> Samurai have Virtues based on Bushido and the like, it would stand to
> reason they have Sins, too. But I can't find them.
> >
> > So...do they exist, and I'm just missing them? If so, does anybody
> know what they are?
> >
>
> Setting aside the debate about whether Samurai ever really "followed
> Bushido" for a moment - take whatever virtues you've found, and
> wouldn't the opposite be the "sin"? I don't think "sin" in a secular
> medieval Japanese context is the right word though - not to mention,
> Bushido is definitely not a religion, although the impression I get is
> that some modern Western martial artists will little knowledge of
> Japanese history treat it like it is.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Everyone ,
What where the Virtues of Samurai ?
Did Samurais practiced Zen or Shinto apart from Bushido?
I'm Eager to know ,

Dos Asanga Chameera
Sri Lanka
www.taekwondoelite.tk<http://www.taekwondoelite.tk>


From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Delwayne Arakaki
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 7:40 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc: kitsuno
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Question: Sins and Virtues



I think the word "sin" is really a christian terminology...
perhaps in Bushido you have "honor" and those "without honor".
a samurai in ancient times would ask "what is sin?"

On 8/16/2011 3:17 PM, kitsuno wrote:
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> , "Junshin" wrote:
> >
> > I have a question, and please be gentle, it's not really a history
> question in the truest sense.
> >
> > The Question: Do Samurai have Sins?
> >
> > I ask this because I'm trying to research them, and all I come
> across is Samurai Virtues. That's fine I guess- I'm a budding writer
> and you need to know the good things to, but for the life of me I
> can't find the appropriate list of matching Sins.
> >
> > Christianity as a whole has Sins and Virtues, as do most religions
> and cultures in the world. They always come as a matching pair. So if
> Samurai have Virtues based on Bushido and the like, it would stand to
> reason they have Sins, too. But I can't find them.
> >
> > So...do they exist, and I'm just missing them? If so, does anybody
> know what they are?
> >
>
> Setting aside the debate about whether Samurai ever really "followed
> Bushido" for a moment - take whatever virtues you've found, and
> wouldn't the opposite be the "sin"? I don't think "sin" in a secular
> medieval Japanese context is the right word though - not to mention,
> Bushido is definitely not a religion, although the impression I get is
> that some modern Western martial artists will little knowledge of
> Japanese history treat it like it is.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Interesting topic. In biblical theology, you will find a great deal of text dealing with what one should NOT do (sin)--the greatest example being the 10 commandment which is mostly a list of "thou shall nots." It is a commonality among Western religions, but not something that a philosophy like Zen, for example, adheres to. In that case you dealing more with "doing" than with not doing.

I am sure you could read idealistic literature like "Hagakure" and pull out some admonitions of what a samurai shouldn't do, but I view those more as advice than anything and not widespread law/rule. Using literature like that for historical purposes is a slippery enough slope as is... You may also look into clan policy or law, but as we have seen in Christian countries, religion and law are often miles apart.

The only "sin" that stands out to me would be disloyalty/dishonoring ones _____.

Coming up with a general list of samurai sins seems like a tall order to me, but I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with. I find it quite interesting.

Sent from my iPod
Jonathan P. Ellgen

On Aug 16, 2011, at 9:09 PM, Delwayne Arakaki <delwayne@...> wrote:

> I think the word "sin" is really a christian terminology...
> perhaps in Bushido you have "honor" and those "without honor".
> a samurai in ancient times would ask "what is sin?"
>
> On 8/16/2011 3:17 PM, kitsuno wrote:
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > , "Junshin" wrote:
> > >
> > > I have a question, and please be gentle, it's not really a history
> > question in the truest sense.
> > >
> > > The Question: Do Samurai have Sins?
> > >
> > > I ask this because I'm trying to research them, and all I come
> > across is Samurai Virtues. That's fine I guess- I'm a budding writer
> > and you need to know the good things to, but for the life of me I
> > can't find the appropriate list of matching Sins.
> > >
> > > Christianity as a whole has Sins and Virtues, as do most religions
> > and cultures in the world. They always come as a matching pair. So if
> > Samurai have Virtues based on Bushido and the like, it would stand to
> > reason they have Sins, too. But I can't find them.
> > >
> > > So...do they exist, and I'm just missing them? If so, does anybody
> > know what they are?
> > >
> >
> > Setting aside the debate about whether Samurai ever really "followed
> > Bushido" for a moment - take whatever virtues you've found, and
> > wouldn't the opposite be the "sin"? I don't think "sin" in a secular
> > medieval Japanese context is the right word though - not to mention,
> > Bushido is definitely not a religion, although the impression I get is
> > that some modern Western martial artists will little knowledge of
> > Japanese history treat it like it is.
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Asking if Japanese cultura has "sins" and how that influenced the bushido code could be a good start point, as it would also be asking about medieval Buddhism and its ideas of "sins".
But maybe what  in Western world would parallel bushido is not Christianity but code of chivalry,  or knighthood.  There would there the best English equivalent,  instead of "sin".
On the other side, one thing were ideas of  good and wrong  in bushido as well as  in the European code of chivalry  at their peak, 13 or 14 Centuries.  Things become different when  by end of those ages  the bushido or  the code of chivalry were matter of some thought and nostalgia. Sure by then everyone wanted to think only about virtues. So no "sins" or "wrongdoing" in bushido texts, all them  written after 18 Century.
 
--- El mar 16-ago-11, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> escribió:


De: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>
Asunto: Re: [samuraihistory] Question: Sins and Virtues
Para: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Fecha: martes, 16 de agosto de 2011, 19:20


 



You would be better off asking if Japanese culture has "sins" and how that
. I recommend looking up the word
"tsumi".

On Aug 16, 2011 6:13 PM, "Junshin" <snowkane@...> wrote:
> I have a question, and please be gentle, it's not really a history
question in the truest sense.
>
> The Question: Do Samurai have Sins?
>
> I ask this because I'm trying to research them, and all I come across is
Samurai Virtues. That's fine I guess- I'm a budding writer and you need to
know the good things to, but for the life of me I can't find the appropriate
list of matching Sins.
>
> Christianity as a whole has Sins and Virtues, as do most religions and
cultures in the world. They always come as a matching pair. So if Samurai
have Virtues based on Bushido and the like, it would stand to reason they
have Sins, too. But I can't find them.
>
> So...do they exist, and I'm just missing them? If so, does anybody know
what they are?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
> Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.htmlYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

According to my research, the Samurai adhered to seven base virtues: GI (Right Action, Duty), YUUKI (Courage), JIN (Benevolence), REI (Politeness/Morality), MAKOTO (Truthfulness), MEIYO (Honor), CHUUGI (Loyalty)

I know when things are translated from one language to another, things get lost in translation. Meaning and context, for one, so I know I don't grasp the whole understanding of the virtues.

As to Zen and Shinto... I'm not sure Zen is a religion, but the Art of Zen seems like it was widely practiced.... Zen is "at right with the universe", I think. Shinto was practiced by pretty much everybody not practicing Buddhism, but I couldn't say who practiced it win. Between Shinto and Buddhism, all I know is that modern-day Japanese pretty much do both, so the two couldn't have been class/sect-exclusive...

My logic might be wrong though.

Still looking for the Sins. Anybody else found any?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Asanga Chameera Wickramatunge wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone ,
> What where the Virtues of Samurai ?
> Did Samurais practiced Zen or Shinto apart from Bushido?
> I'm Eager to know ,
>
> Dos Asanga Chameera
> Sri Lanka
> www.taekwondoelite.tk<http://www.taekwondoelite.tk>
>
>
> From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Delwayne Arakaki
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 7:40 AM
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: kitsuno
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Question: Sins and Virtues
>
>
>
> I think the word "sin" is really a christian terminology...
> perhaps in Bushido you have "honor" and those "without honor".
> a samurai in ancient times would ask "what is sin?"
>
> On 8/16/2011 3:17 PM, kitsuno wrote:
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > , "Junshin" wrote:
> > >
> > > I have a question, and please be gentle, it's not really a history
> > question in the truest sense.
> > >
> > > The Question: Do Samurai have Sins?
> > >
> > > I ask this because I'm trying to research them, and all I come
> > across is Samurai Virtues. That's fine I guess- I'm a budding writer
> > and you need to know the good things to, but for the life of me I
> > can't find the appropriate list of matching Sins.
> > >
> > > Christianity as a whole has Sins and Virtues, as do most religions
> > and cultures in the world. They always come as a matching pair. So if
> > Samurai have Virtues based on Bushido and the like, it would stand to
> > reason they have Sins, too. But I can't find them.
> > >
> > > So...do they exist, and I'm just missing them? If so, does anybody
> > know what they are?
> > >
> >
> > Setting aside the debate about whether Samurai ever really "followed
> > Bushido" for a moment - take whatever virtues you've found, and
> > wouldn't the opposite be the "sin"? I don't think "sin" in a secular
> > medieval Japanese context is the right word though - not to mention,
> > Bushido is definitely not a religion, although the impression I get is
> > that some modern Western martial artists will little knowledge of
> > Japanese history treat it like it is.
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>