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Saito's sword fight, injured at Toba-Fushimi, and new "towel" theory

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#985 [2004-06-05 16:37:43]

Saito's sword fight, injured at Toba-Fushimi, and new "towel" theory

by warg3791

Ok, I just looked at the www.3-hajime.com site with a different
translator and it offered a different interpretation of the first
police kendo competition that Saito competed in. According to this
translation the victory was actually awarded to him, but there were
some who spread the rumor that the fight had actually ended in a
draw.

I've also been considering the whole thing about him never wrapping a
towel about his neck. So far I've come up with two new clues that
have led me to a conclusion about what they mean. The first is the
fact that the word "neck" is not necessarily the correct translation.
The evil goldfish also has a tendency to say "neck" when it's talking
about Kondo's beheading. So it could actually be talking about his
head, not his neck. The second thing I found was a reference to
a "worktowel" that people wore wrapped around their head to keep the
sweat out of their eyes. It was in a book on the Edo period and
mentioned that people took these off in the presence of someone of
higher rank. As I recall, in the Shin Kepp miniseries many of the
scenes that featured training in the dojo showed the Shinsengumi
memebers wearing just such a towel on their head. So my conclusion is
that this is in fact the "towel" that Saito never wore around
his "neck" (or rather his head).

And I found another reference to Saito being wounded at the battle of
Toba-Fushimi in the 1to5.net notes. He went to a medical place at the
Kando Izumi bridge on the 19th it says. The assumption made was that
it was for treatment of injures substained during the battle. I just
finished watching "When the Last Sword is Drawn", courtesy of Barb.
In that movie, Saito is wounded in the leg in the Toba-Fushimi fight.
Coincidence or is this based on fact? I note that the movie also had
Saito referring to Kondo as a "snob". This becomes VERY relevant in
light of the info we just received about Kondo's attitude problem and
the quarrel within the ranks because of it.

-MissBehavin

[Next #986]

#986 [2004-06-05 17:14:16]

Re: Saito's sword fight, injured at Toba-Fushimi, and new "towel" theory

by secretarytocapt3

What new translator are you using? If you can translate all of
3-hajime and zip the files please do so because frankly, the fish is
killing me...I'll never finish babelfishing the entire site.

See I was thinking if in fact the kenjutsu tournaments in the TMPD
were in the process of "converting" to modern kendo it seems that they
would be using some new rules such as time limits. In modern
tournments there are set time limits---but back then there were no
stop watches?!? The fact that the TMPD adopted a kendo ranking
system, used till this very day in mainstream kendo, implies that
their tournaments MUST have had modern restrictions. Fujita Goro may
not have been able to land a decisive strike in the eyes of the
referee. It seems that Fujita Goro's opponent was from a different
department/ward so perhaps the opponent's buddies weren't happy. In a
kendo book I read, the tournaments were also used to encourage
vigorous training in the dept.

The problem I have with Saitou being that severely injured at
Toba-Fushimi is...he walks with a very impairing limp which to me
would be far too dangerous to send a guy to the Seinan war with that
"handicap" to begin with. The newspaper article clearly narrates that
he was actually on the field with whatever battalion he was assigned to.

The wrapping a towel around the head/neck...I see you haven't "let go"
of this detail either ^_^...I was thinking back to the film Bakumatsu
Mono....and the main character's stomache wound was aggravated by a
practice session and he ends up wrapping a towel around his neck. And
didn't someone say that guys did that to maintain their health or
something? I don't have my copy of Shinsengumi Kepp. with me but
towels called tenugui are wrapped around your head before you put on
the "men"/helmet for kenjutsu practice...but in this case you HAD to
wrap the towel around your head (looks easy but it ain't trust
me)...because the towel is supposed to prevent you from stinking up
the helmet. I think after the guys take off the "men" they still kept
the towels around their head...some will even wipe their faces with it
(eeeeeewwwwww). Hmmm so -wouldn't- he wrap a towel around his
neck/head. I think we have to ask momoiro about this question ^_^

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "warg3791" wrote:
> Ok, I just looked at the www.3-hajime.com site with a different
> translator and it offered a different interpretation of the first
> police kendo competition that Saito competed in. According to this
> translation the victory was actually awarded to him, but there were
> some who spread the rumor that the fight had actually ended in a
> draw.
>
> I've also been considering the whole thing about him never wrapping a
> towel about his neck. So far I've come up with two new clues that
> have led me to a conclusion about what they mean. The first is the
> fact that the word "neck" is not necessarily the correct translation.
> The evil goldfish also has a tendency to say "neck" when it's talking
> about Kondo's beheading. So it could actually be talking about his
> head, not his neck. The second thing I found was a reference to
> a "worktowel" that people wore wrapped around their head to keep the
> sweat out of their eyes. It was in a book on the Edo period and
> mentioned that people took these off in the presence of someone of
> higher rank. As I recall, in the Shin Kepp miniseries many of the
> scenes that featured training in the dojo showed the Shinsengumi
> memebers wearing just such a towel on their head. So my conclusion is
> that this is in fact the "towel" that Saito never wore around
> his "neck" (or rather his head).
>
> And I found another reference to Saito being wounded at the battle of
> Toba-Fushimi in the 1to5.net notes. He went to a medical place at the
> Kando Izumi bridge on the 19th it says. The assumption made was that
> it was for treatment of injures substained during the battle. I just
> finished watching "When the Last Sword is Drawn", courtesy of Barb.
> In that movie, Saito is wounded in the leg in the Toba-Fushimi fight.
> Coincidence or is this based on fact? I note that the movie also had
> Saito referring to Kondo as a "snob". This becomes VERY relevant in
> light of the info we just received about Kondo's attitude problem and
> the quarrel within the ranks because of it.
>
> -MissBehavin

[Previous #985] [Next #988]

#988 [2004-06-05 18:40:46]

Re: Saito's sword fight, injured at Toba-Fushimi, and new "towel" theory

by mg_batt

Sec, that is a little unsettling... I've always wondered why there
were no fansites for Kondou Isami, especially since I started
watching NHK... This would explain it... I wonder what other
forums/boards (japanese) has to say.


On another note... was that an online translation software MissB or
a local program in your PC?

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "secretary"
wrote:
> What new translator are you using? If you can translate all of
> 3-hajime and zip the files please do so because frankly, the fish
is
> killing me...I'll never finish babelfishing the entire site.
>
> See I was thinking if in fact the kenjutsu tournaments in the TMPD
> were in the process of "converting" to modern kendo it seems that
they
> would be using some new rules such as time limits. In modern
> tournments there are set time limits---but back then there were no
> stop watches?!? The fact that the TMPD adopted a kendo ranking
> system, used till this very day in mainstream kendo, implies that
> their tournaments MUST have had modern restrictions. Fujita Goro
may
> not have been able to land a decisive strike in the eyes of the
> referee. It seems that Fujita Goro's opponent was from a different
> department/ward so perhaps the opponent's buddies weren't happy.
In a
> kendo book I read, the tournaments were also used to encourage
> vigorous training in the dept.
>
> The problem I have with Saitou being that severely injured at
> Toba-Fushimi is...he walks with a very impairing limp which to me
> would be far too dangerous to send a guy to the Seinan war with
that
> "handicap" to begin with. The newspaper article clearly narrates
that
> he was actually on the field with whatever battalion he was
assigned to.
>
> The wrapping a towel around the head/neck...I see you haven't "let
go"
> of this detail either ^_^...I was thinking back to the film
Bakumatsu
> Mono....and the main character's stomache wound was aggravated by a
> practice session and he ends up wrapping a towel around his neck.
And
> didn't someone say that guys did that to maintain their health or
> something? I don't have my copy of Shinsengumi Kepp. with me but
> towels called tenugui are wrapped around your head before you put
on
> the "men"/helmet for kenjutsu practice...but in this case you HAD
to
> wrap the towel around your head (looks easy but it ain't trust
> me)...because the towel is supposed to prevent you from stinking up
> the helmet. I think after the guys take off the "men" they still
kept
> the towels around their head...some will even wipe their faces
with it
> (eeeeeewwwwww). Hmmm so -wouldn't- he wrap a towel around his
> neck/head. I think we have to ask momoiro about this question ^_^
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "warg3791" wrote:
> > Ok, I just looked at the www.3-hajime.com site with a different
> > translator and it offered a different interpretation of the
first
> > police kendo competition that Saito competed in. According to
this
> > translation the victory was actually awarded to him, but there
were
> > some who spread the rumor that the fight had actually ended in a
> > draw.
> >
> > I've also been considering the whole thing about him never
wrapping a
> > towel about his neck. So far I've come up with two new clues
that
> > have led me to a conclusion about what they mean. The first is
the
> > fact that the word "neck" is not necessarily the correct
translation.
> > The evil goldfish also has a tendency to say "neck" when it's
talking
> > about Kondo's beheading. So it could actually be talking about
his
> > head, not his neck. The second thing I found was a reference to
> > a "worktowel" that people wore wrapped around their head to keep
the
> > sweat out of their eyes. It was in a book on the Edo period and
> > mentioned that people took these off in the presence of someone
of
> > higher rank. As I recall, in the Shin Kepp miniseries many of
the
> > scenes that featured training in the dojo showed the Shinsengumi
> > memebers wearing just such a towel on their head. So my
conclusion is
> > that this is in fact the "towel" that Saito never wore around
> > his "neck" (or rather his head).
> >
> > And I found another reference to Saito being wounded at the
battle of
> > Toba-Fushimi in the 1to5.net notes. He went to a medical place
at the
> > Kando Izumi bridge on the 19th it says. The assumption made was
that
> > it was for treatment of injures substained during the battle. I
just
> > finished watching "When the Last Sword is Drawn", courtesy of
Barb.
> > In that movie, Saito is wounded in the leg in the Toba-Fushimi
fight.
> > Coincidence or is this based on fact? I note that the movie also
had
> > Saito referring to Kondo as a "snob". This becomes VERY relevant
in
> > light of the info we just received about Kondo's attitude
problem and
> > the quarrel within the ranks because of it.
> >
> > -MissBehavin

[Previous #986] [Next #989]

#989 [2004-06-05 18:55:36]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saito's sword fight, injured at Toba-Fushimi, and new "towel" theory

by warg3791

In a message dated 6/5/2004 8:14:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, secretarytocapt3@... writes:

> The problem I have with Saitou being that severely injured at
> Toba-Fushimi is...he walks with a very impairing limp which to me
> would be far too dangerous to send a guy to the Seinan war with that
> "handicap" to begin with. The newspaper article clearly narrates that
> he was actually on the field with whatever battalion he was
> assigned to.

I think that the movie exaggerated the injury. He certainly had something happen to him at Toba-Fushimi. Not only to both 1to5.net and www.3-hajime.com mention it, I just noticed that the new site with the info on all the Captains says he "suffered a slight illness". I doubt it could have been anything too serious, because he took several days to go to this medical place about it and then he went straight back into action.

That tummy-wrapper thing is in one of my books actually. I suggested that before, but I thought we decided that couldn't be it? Hm, it could still be that tenugui thing. Perhaps we have it all wrong? Don't let those clean fundoshi fool you! It's not Harada's equipment you want to avoid, you want to steer clear of Saito's! LOL! Seriously though, please ask momoiro what the devil they mean!

I had to buy a translator that frankly works similar to Gist. That's the only way I can get some sites to come up, which is the only benefit. The Fish won't work for me most of the time and occasionally Gist won't either. I have to paste everything onto it, which can be a real pain. As far as doing zip files goes, I've never tried to do that before and I have no idea where to start. You'd have to give me a crash course, IF this computer will even co-operate. It can be a real PITA when it comes to zip files. I STILL haven't been able to retrieve that info about that Shogitai, either from here or your account. It tells me the format isn't recognized.

-MissBehavin

[Previous #988] [Next #991]

#991 [2004-06-05 19:09:25]

Re: [SHQ] Re: Saito's sword fight, injured at Toba-Fushimi, and new "towel" theory

by warg3791

In a message dated 6/5/2004 9:40:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wounds@... writes:

> On another note... was that an online translation software
> MissB or
> a local program in your PC?

It's one I bought at Best Buy. It's the "Instant Immersion Translator Deluxe" by Topics Entertainment.

-M.B.

[Previous #989] [Next #992]

#992 [2004-06-05 19:20:10]

Re: Saito's sword fight, injured at Toba-Fushimi, and new "towel" theory

by secretarytocapt3

Go to
http://www.streamload.com/secretarytocapt3/PDF
It doesn't require http://www.winzip.com/ $29
to get all of the PDFs that Kev gave us (the Shogitai file)...we keep
exceeding the download limit in our FILES section

Everyone else please take advantage of
http://www.streamload.com/secretarytocapt3
password makoto...download download download
If anyone wants me to host relevant large files which would take up
too much space here in yahoo groups let me know

> I had to buy a translator that frankly works similar to Gist.
I hope it didn't cost you too much $$$. And shouldn't you be saving
up for our fantasy trip to Japan? ^_^

I am skimming "The True Story of The Siege of Kumamoto Castle"
translated by James H. Buck
Standard Book Number (which I guess means isbn in the 1970s) 533-02324-6
mentions how the Imperial Army used to suppress the Satsuma Rebellion
had low morale and little training so the gov. organized "Special
Mobile Brigades" consisting of [policemen] from the samurai class from
all over Japan. The book is (gasp) very very very PRO "GREAT SAIGO"
however I think the detail about the [police] fighting "hand-to-hand
combat with swords and bayonets so vigorously that they fought with
Satsuma samurai on an equal basis" (Buck, viii) was used to add some
sort of balance to both sides in the conflict. Like all books,
demographics were left out entirely seeing how many of those policemen
were from Aizu and all...

Miss B, have you used jstor.org to look up journal articles? I found
a totally cool journal article about the TMPD and how it was run
during Fujita Goro's time...but ODDLY not too much stuff on Aizu and
Hakodate...so we gotta come up with some keywords to use.

[Previous #991]


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