2 Questions

I looked through the FAQ and SHQ site, but couldn't seem to find it -
were *all* of the Shinsengumi members of the Samurai class, or did
they have a sort of "open enrollment" (Or part two - were there any
notable non-samurai members?). And, where can I find a good detailed
floorplan of the Ikedaya? The Shinsengumi book I have here has a
small floorplan, but I'm looking for a little more detail.

>I looked through the FAQ and SHQ site, but couldn't seem to find it -
>were *all* of the Shinsengumi members of the Samurai class, or did
>they have a sort of "open enrollment"

There were people who were of non-samurai background in Shinsengumi, for
sure. Even some people who were on record as ronin such as Kondou originally
came from peasant/farmer or other backgrounds.

p. 254 of "Shinsengumi" by Oishi Manabu actually has a chart answering the
question you just posed, covering at least some of the more notable members.
In the "Commoner" section, under "farmers", for instance, are Inoue
Genzaburo, Kano Michinosuke, Hijikata Toshizou, Miyagawa Shinkichi, Motoi
Kazusaburo, and Yokokura Jingoro. I know, I know, Hijikata did go around
"selling" stuff (merchant), but his family had peasant/farmer roots, too.

Interestingly enough, there were even some former religious figures in
Shinsengumi, such as Ando Hayataro.

-M.

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--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa" wrote:

>
>
> p. 254 of "Shinsengumi" by Oishi Manabu actually has a chart

answering the

> question you just posed, covering at least some of the more notable

members.

Is this "Shinsengumi no Jidai" I assume? Seems to be out of print on
amazon.co.jp, and seems to be the only book the UH library doesn't
have on the Shinsengumi. I don't suppose you have any ideas on any
other books where a similar list could be found?

"Shinsengumi: 'Saigo no Bushi' no Jitsuzo"

ISBN 4121017730

Published by Chuo-koron Shinsha, 2004.

-M.

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--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Hirotada Tokugawa" wrote:

>
> "Shinsengumi: 'Saigo no Bushi' no Jitsuzo"
>
> ISBN 4121017730
>
> Published by Chuo-koron Shinsha, 2004.
>
> -M.
>

Thanks - after I posted last I realized he wrote quite a few books.
Less than 1000 yen...! It will be on my next order.

Here you go.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=14&m=f&o=0
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=13&m=f&o=0


~Seven

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
>And, where can I find a good detailed
> floorplan of the Ikedaya? The Shinsengumi book I have here has a
> small floorplan, but I'm looking for a little more detail.
>

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:

>
> Here you go.
> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=14&m=f&o=0
> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=13&m=f&o=0
>
>
> ~Seven
>
>

Thanks! I'm having a friend use CAD software to create a reproduction
of the building. I'll be sure to share when he finishes :P

In case anyone is interested, here is the Ikedaya floorplan from the
"Shinsengumi" Gakken series #31 that I have:
http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ikedaya1ez3.jpg
Click on it to get the giant size view.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" wrote:
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, "Seven" wrote:
> >
> > Here you go.
> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=14&m=f&o=0
> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=13&m=f&o=0
> >
> >
> > ~Seven
> >
> >

Thank you to both Kitsuno and Seven for these images; they are perfectly
timed for an adventure that I am putting together for my role-playing
group.

I do have a couple of questions, though. The first concerns the labeling
on Kitsuno's map. The rooms have labels such as "6巾占" (hopefully the
message encoding allows the kanji to display; if not, I'm referring to
the labels with a number followed by a three-stroke and a five-stroke
kanji). I'm familiar with the convention of expressing room sizes by the
number of tatami, but I learned that as 6-jou (6 畳) and could not find
the map's notation in my dictionaries. Does the notation on the map mean
the same thing? If so, what is the distinction between the two?

The two maps are clearly derived from the same original source. Is this
known to be a historically accurate map of the Ikedaya, or drawn from
typical inns of the period (or perhaps the set of one of the Shinsengumi
films)?

What would the exterior grounds look like (other than the rear garden)?
Narrow alleys between the
adjacent buildings or a larger lot, potentially with a fence or wall
around the whole property?

Finally, in the interest of giving due credit, what are the sources for
these two maps?

Thanks,
Chuck

Kitsuno wrote:

>
> In case anyone is interested, here is the Ikedaya floorplan from the
> "Shinsengumi" Gakken series #31 that I have:
> http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ikedaya1ez3.jpg
> <http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ikedaya1ez3.jpg>
> Click on it to get the giant size view.
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "Kitsuno"
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "Seven"
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Here you go.
> > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=14&m=f&o=0
> <http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=14&m=f&o=0>
> > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=13&m=f&o=0
> <http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=13&m=f&o=0>
> > >
> > >
> > > ~Seven
> > >
> > >
>
>

1畳 and 1帖 are same.

shikisoku

2007/1/12, Chuck Harris <chuckjharris@...>:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you to both Kitsuno and Seven for these images; they are perfectly
> timed for an adventure that I am putting together for my role-playing
> group.
>
> I do have a couple of questions, though. The first concerns the labeling
> on Kitsuno's map. The rooms have labels such as "6巾占" (hopefully the
> message encoding allows the kanji to display; if not, I'm referring to
> the labels with a number followed by a three-stroke and a five-stroke
> kanji). I'm familiar with the convention of expressing room sizes by the
> number of tatami, but I learned that as 6-jou (6 畳) and could not find
> the map's notation in my dictionaries. Does the notation on the map mean
> the same thing? If so, what is the distinction between the two?
>
> The two maps are clearly derived from the same original source. Is this
> known to be a historically accurate map of the Ikedaya, or drawn from
> typical inns of the period (or perhaps the set of one of the Shinsengumi
> films)?
>
> What would the exterior grounds look like (other than the rear garden)?
> Narrow alleys between the
> adjacent buildings or a larger lot, potentially with a fence or wall
> around the whole property?
>
> Finally, in the interest of giving due credit, what are the sources for
> these two maps?
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck
>
> Kitsuno wrote:
> >
> > In case anyone is interested, here is the Ikedaya floorplan from the
> > "Shinsengumi" Gakken series #31 that I have:
> > http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ikedaya1ez3.jpg
> > <http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ikedaya1ez3.jpg>
> > Click on it to get the giant size view.
> >
> > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "Kitsuno"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , "Seven"
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Here you go.
> > > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=14&m=f&o=0
> > <http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=14&m=f&o=0>
> > > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=13&m=f&o=0
> > <http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/photos/view/8b5a?b=13&m=f&o=0>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ~Seven
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
>
>

k kobayakawa wrote:

>
> 1畳 and 1帖 are same.
>
> shikisoku
>

Thank you. I suspected that was the case, but just wanted to double
check it.

Thanks,
Chuck

None of the maps of the Ikedaya that I find indicate the dimensions of
the building itself (which is making it hard to create an accurate
architectural floorplan) - does anyone have a source that states the
length, width, and height of the building? The sizes of the inside
rooms help, but there is too much unaccounted space to accurately
figure the length and width of the actual building from it.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Harris wrote:
>
> Thank you to both Kitsuno and Seven for these images; they are
perfectly
> timed for an adventure that I am putting together for my role-playing
> group.
>
> I do have a couple of questions, though. The first concerns the
labeling
> on Kitsuno's map. The rooms have labels such as "6蟾ｾ蜊�" (hopefully the
> message encoding allows the kanji to display; if not, I'm referring to
> the labels with a number followed by a three-stroke and a five-stroke
> kanji). I'm familiar with the convention of expressing room sizes by
the
> number of tatami, but I learned that as 6-jou (6 逡ｳ) and could not find
> the map's notation in my dictionaries. Does the notation on the map
mean
> the same thing? If so, what is the distinction between the two?
>
> The two maps are clearly derived from the same original source. Is this
> known to be a historically accurate map of the Ikedaya, or drawn from
> typical inns of the period (or perhaps the set of one of the
Shinsengumi
> films)?
>
> What would the exterior grounds look like (other than the rear garden)?
> Narrow alleys between the
> adjacent buildings or a larger lot, potentially with a fence or wall
> around the whole property?
>
> Finally, in the interest of giving due credit, what are the sources for
> these two maps?
>

There is a small map at
http://www.ryozen-museum.or.jp/040424ikedaya.html that looks like it
includes at least a few more dimensions (along with some photos of a
very nice diorama of the Ikedaya and a couple of architectural drawings
showing the outside of the building). Unfortunately, the resolution of
the image is too low for me to read the text and I was unable to find a
larger version.

FWIW, there is also http://www.webvider.com/ikedaya/index.html , which
mentions an estimated plan size, but I think the author extrapolated
that based on the tatami sizes (my Japanese reading skills are poor at
best, so please take my interpretations with a grain of salt). It also
various other information like an elevation plan of the inn (which
finally let me get my head around the structure) and even a few photos,
along with information about where various members were during the raid.

Finally, I found a company that sells a papercraft model of the Ikedaya
at http://craft.dosue.jp/craft/machiya/ikedaya.html (along with some
other interesting models, such as
http://craft.dosue.jp/craft/others/doll.html). I have currently not been
able to ascertain whether they will ship outside of Japan (their old
site would not allow it, but they have recently changed hosting
providers and their email from the new site bounces).

Kitsuno wrote:

>
> None of the maps of the Ikedaya that I find indicate the dimensions of
> the building itself (which is making it hard to create an accurate
> architectural floorplan) - does anyone have a source that states the
> length, width, and height of the building? The sizes of the inside
> rooms help, but there is too much unaccounted space to accurately
> figure the length and width of the actual building from it.
>
> --- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com , Chuck
> Harris wrote:
> >
> > Thank you to both Kitsuno and Seven for these images; they are
> perfectly
> > timed for an adventure that I am putting together for my role-playing
> > group.
> >
> > I do have a couple of questions, though. The first concerns the
> labeling
> > on Kitsuno's map. The rooms have labels such as "6蟾ｾ�� " (hopefully
> the
> > message encoding allows the kanji to display; if not, I'm referring to
> > the labels with a number followed by a three-stroke and a five-stroke
> > kanji). I'm familiar with the convention of expressing room sizes by
> the
> > number of tatami, but I learned that as 6-jou (6 �•ｳ) and could not
> find
> > the map's notation in my dictionaries. Does the notation on the map
> mean
> > the same thing? If so, what is the distinction between the two?
> >
> > The two maps are clearly derived from the same original source. Is this
> > known to be a historically accurate map of the Ikedaya, or drawn from
> > typical inns of the period (or perhaps the set of one of the
> Shinsengumi
> > films)?
> >
> > What would the exterior grounds look like (other than the rear garden)?
> > Narrow alleys between the
> > adjacent buildings or a larger lot, potentially with a fence or wall
> > around the whole property?
> >
> > Finally, in the interest of giving due credit, what are the sources for
> > these two maps?
> >
>
>

Thanks, I guess this is about the best I can hope for - it looks like
the size is going to mostly have to be estimated based on the size of
the rooms and little things like the size of "standard" shoji tracks
and things like that. It should work, though. And I've seen the site
with the info on who went where, so I am going to incorporate that
info into one version of the floorplan as well.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Harris wrote:
>
> There is a small map at
> http://www.ryozen-museum.or.jp/040424ikedaya.html that looks like it
> includes at least a few more dimensions (along with some photos of a
> very nice diorama of the Ikedaya and a couple of architectural drawings
> showing the outside of the building). Unfortunately, the resolution of
> the image is too low for me to read the text and I was unable to find a
> larger version.
>
> FWIW, there is also http://www.webvider.com/ikedaya/index.html , which
> mentions an estimated plan size, but I think the author extrapolated
> that based on the tatami sizes (my Japanese reading skills are poor at
> best, so please take my interpretations with a grain of salt). It also
> various other information like an elevation plan of the inn (which
> finally let me get my head around the structure) and even a few photos,
> along with information about where various members were during the raid.
>
> Finally, I found a company that sells a papercraft model of the Ikedaya
> at http://craft.dosue.jp/craft/machiya/ikedaya.html (along with some
> other interesting models, such as
> http://craft.dosue.jp/craft/others/doll.html). I have currently not
been
> able to ascertain whether they will ship outside of Japan (their old
> site would not allow it, but they have recently changed hosting
> providers and their email from the new site bounces).
>