Why did Nagakura and Saito never meet up?

I just had a thought about why Nagakura and Saito never tried to see
each other after the war when they clearly knew each other was alive.
Other than the fact that they might not have been that close to begin
with, it's likely that they were afraid such contact would put both
themselves in their families in danger. As long as they maintained
their distance from each other they were probably alright. But if
they started contacting each other and the Meiji government took an
interest? They might have been afraid someone would be like "Oh no!
Those Shinsengumi guys are gathering together again! We'd better take
care of them permanently!"

The other real possibility is that Nagakura might have had issues
with Saito going to work for the Meiji government. He might have been
like "How can you work for the people who killed Kondo and
Hijikata?!"

Just a thought..

-MissBehavin

In a message dated 6/16/2004 5:06:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Warg3791 writes:

> The other real possibility is that Nagakura might have had issues
> with Saito going to work for the Meiji government. He might
> have been
> like "How can you work for the people who killed Kondo and
> Hijikata?!"

D'oh! Where did my mind go?! Nagakura worked for the government to as a prison guard! Scratch that last part!
-sheepish grin-

-MissBehavin

I asked this question over at http://www.shinsengumimb.com...I don't
think Nagakura had issues with Saitou working for the government
because Nagakura himself was a prison guard and was employed directly
by the government...according to what I've read about Meiji Era
police, prisons were run by the police/army.

I betting they wrote letters...its a matter of finding the person's
"new" name that's all...after all Miki found Nagakura...^_^

In a message dated 6/16/2004 7:03:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, secretarytocapt3@... writes:

> asked this question over at http://www.shinsengumimb.com...I don't
> think Nagakura had issues with Saitou working for the government
> because Nagakura himself was a prison guard and was employed directly
> by the government...according to what I've read about Meiji Era
> police, prisons were run by the police/army.
>
> I betting they wrote letters...its a matter of finding the
> person's
> "new" name that's all...after all Miki found Nagakura...^_^

Yeah, I actually knew that. I had just forgotten about it for a moment. I have a valid excuse though. I was still half-asleep. The brain wasn't working correctly yet.

But you have to remember that Miki didn't go LOOKING for Nagakura. It was a chance meeting. They just both happened to be in Kyoto at the same time and Miki spotted him.

I figure they might have wrote letters if they had any sort of friendship at all. Unfortunately we have no evidence that the two of them were close even when they were in the Shinsengumi together. Remember what Serizawa told us about Saito and Okita not really being as good a friends as they're made to seem sometimes? But what I'm talking about is meeting face to face. I assume the expense of travelling could have played some role in this. However with us running across constant references to Shinsengumi family members feeling as if they were under threat, I just wondered if they might have been afraid of meeting openly?

-MissBehavin

What strikes me about the Meiji Era (or Chinese/Japanese record
keeping in general) was that everything was pretty gosh darn
organized. I personally don't believe that Miki could've possibly
just bumped into Nagakura on the street...we don't have a year for
when Miki joined the force (do we Phil?) or when this "accidental"
meeting occurred...if Miki was in the force before meeting with
Nagakura then this is my lame brain theory...

based on Toshiyoshi Kawaji's obsession with keeping everything
centralized (all police posts in different prefectures etc funneled
info to one place---Tokyo---and everything was managed from there---
basically)...I imagine if Miki found Nagakura's new name he would
pull some strings to have some research done ^_^

Although we always angst (ok I'll use it as a verb) about how much
little info we have blah blah blah...if you read 1to5.net's page
about her visit to the Police Museum one of the items displayed is a
record of names of men assigned to various brigades such as the 3rd
BRIGADE which Toshiyoshi Kawaji commanded (basically guys from the
TMPD specifically) and in which, we -assume- Fujita Goro was
assigned. Heck my univ. library has a book with a list of names of
all the guys who died in the Seinan War. The webmaster fo 1to5.net
even figures that his info is definitely in these books ^_^

I have a tendency to believe that management level members of the
Shinsengumi chief, vice chief, captains, advisors etc had a working
and somewhat close relationship after all they knew each other for
years and had to meet one another on a regular basis. The very
nature of their work also forced them to know the strengths and
weaknesses of the other person as well...after all your comrades
watched your back in battle. But they didn't have to be *best*
friends. Based on new info from our member momoiro about complaint
letters against Kondou sent to Matsudaira on which Nagakura and
Saitou's name appeared I figure these guys put their heads together
and did some serious thinking---I personally believe they were
friends.

--- In SHQ@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:
> But you have to remember that Miki didn't go LOOKING for Nagakura.
It was a chance meeting. They just both happened to be in Kyoto at
the same time and Miki spotted him.
>
> I figure they might have wrote letters if they had any sort of
friendship at all. Unfortunately we have no evidence that the two of
them were close even when they were in the Shinsengumi together.
Remember what Serizawa told us about Saito and Okita not really
being as good a friends as they're made to seem sometimes?

secretary <secretarytocapt3@...> wrote:

>>I personally don't believe that Miki could've possibly

just bumped into Nagakura on the street...we don't have a year for when Miki joined the force (do we Phil?) or when this "accidental" meeting occurred...if Miki was in the force before meeting with Nagakura then this is my lame brain theory...


We do have a year for the attack on Nagakura. According to MissB's electronic translation of info from http://www2.plala.or.jp/shyall/retuden/sinsengumi.html :
<<"Nagakura new 8 in Kyoto in 1869 and I try a surprise attack, but end in an attempt.">>

I haven't investigated the site yet so I don't know if there's any other info like when he joined the police force. It went further to say:
<>

Someone with the language skills must check this, but this almost sounds like after Toba-Fushimi he became second patrol captain of the Sekihoutai and (for whatever reason, which I'd *love* to know --- Satsuma connections?) was imprisoned instead of being executed after Sagara's fall, then was released and fought in the Battle of Aizu (?). Once that was over, he returned to Tokyo. Eventually he became a police chief of Tsuruoka... do we know where that is/was?... but we don't have any specific year for when he joined the force.

I can't remember... where was Nagakura during the battle for Aizu? Is it possible Miki kept track of him starting there (*if* he fought with the Imperialists)? And when did Nagakura begin working on Shinsengumi graves? There maybe some clues out there to speculate from regarding Miki's ability to track him down. I agree with secretary that it's doubtful it was purely "chance". I agree that he probably planned the surprise attack (and failed... again!). But I don't think he was part of the police force yet in 1869... maybe he was.

If someone can translate the article MissB found that had info on Suzuki (the URL is above), I'll write up the information we have on Suzuki from that and the other website M translated and get it posted up on my Sagara site ASAP so it can be easily referenced. (Could whoever translates it also give me the info on Shinohara Tainoshin?) At least it'll be a start.

phil



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The ACCIDENTAL meeting occured in 1869. Nagakura had not even taken on his adopted name yet. They were still sorting out the organization of the police department in that year. No one could have had the time to track down one former Shinsengumi member for Miki. And you miss the bigger point: WHY go after NAGAKURA?! If he could track someone down then WHY NOT SAITO? After all, at that point he was no one important to the police department. It's not like Kawaji would have gone "But Miki, I think I might need that guy some day!" And somehow I doubt Miki was with the police then either, considering that the Sekihoutai had just been betrayed the year before.

If you'll recall in our chat session eariler this month, Serizawa even termed it a "chance meeting". People bump into each other all the time in the strangest places. It's not that amazing to me that Miki could be walking down the street and suddenly go "Wait a minute! That's Nagakura over there!"

-MissBehavin