Random Bits.

First of all, I wanted to thank both s-girl and Tiffany for their
AWESOME artwork. You guys both contribute sooooooo much to our
community, and we're all really appreciative.

s-girl, I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but your nighttime
picture REALLY reminds me of my favorite hakubaikou painting "Cry
Havoc". It gives me the same sort of chills and evokes similar
bloodthirsty type thoughts in my head. This is to say that I REALLY
enjoyed it a lot.

Tiffany, WOW. Just wow. That is such an incredibly unique style,
something very new and different and vivid. I don't think I will be
getting those drawings you did out my head for a while.

I hope neither of you mind if I steal these pictures and put them in
my personal wallpaper rotation at home? No one else looks at it
besides me, really.

------

I also wanted to blather a bit about Mary Sues. You can often find
her posing under the name "Tokio" in many fanfics. She's somehow a
swordswoman who can take down the entire Shinsengumi, but, in her
off-time, she's stunningly beautiful, charming, and poised. Also, she
can verbally browbeat (RK) Saitou into doing whatever she wants,
turning her Wolf into a puppy with a snap of the fingers.

And everyone in the Kamiya dojo ADORES her.

I'd go on, but then I would be targeting specific stories, and that's
just mean.

Angrybee.

no problem.... I like people to d/l my work and use it... it's only archiving at websites that bothers me because most people don't link back to my galleries or my other sites.

It's still a draft and is prelighting effects so make sure to watch my dev-art gallery for the update.

And I love HB's stuff, so the comparison is very well received. Thank you for it!
S

Hi, all!!

>I also wanted to blather a bit about Mary Sues. You can often find

her posing under the name "Tokio" in many fanfics. She's somehow a
swordswoman who can take down the entire Shinsengumi, but, in her
off-time, she's stunningly beautiful, charming, and poised. Also, she
can verbally browbeat (RK) Saitou into doing whatever she wants,
turning her Wolf into a puppy with a snap of the fingers.

And everyone in the Kamiya dojo ADORES her.

I'd go on, but then I would be targeting specific stories, and that's
just mean.

Angrybee.<


Ah, yes, you are SO right here.



In fact I could include most latest depictions of Kaoru here as Mary Sue too, where she is a goddess and has all RK males pinning after her, changing the hearts of everyone she is in touch with, she is oh-so perfect and compassionate that she is at the verge of being raised to the Altars, and worshipped, so beautiful that the moon pales in comparison, etc, etc, etc.



In the specific case of Tokio, what annoys me the most is that this Mary Sue version is the one which is probably the most approved and loved, sometimes with slight variants (no being the best swordsman, but still beating the crap out of Saitou and any other strong fighter at hand, still being loved by everybody at the Kamiya dojo, etc, everybody falling for her beauty and finesse, superb cook that can humiliate Kaoru tenfold, and Saitou is slave to her whims, just with a snap of her fingers).

Sadly, it's also the one that receives hundreds of reviews. Not that getting tons of reviews reflects the quality of a fic. In fact, IMO, is quite the opposite in most cases, but of course, it's just my opinion. For instance, I'm primarily an Enishi fan and I see this more closely in the E/K realm. There is a jewel there, its title 'The Affair', and though it's doing fine on its own, I see that other fics with the infamous Mary Sue Kaoru are vastly more popular.



Anyway, maybe it's the number of teenagers discovering fanfiction, I don't know, but Mary Sues in disguise as RK characters are common nowadays, as much as stealing complete fanfics, research or author notes shamelessly, a thing terribly common as I said before, even among well known authors.



In the AoshiMisao ML, one of the authors has just denounced the plagiarism of her fics, And I've denounced abuse no less than six times in cases of fics I've realized were stolen during last year. It's funny to see how this works: they 'fish' among authors that had stopped publishing for several months or even years, and then they copy the whole plot, the actual fic, the authors notes, etc.



Sometimes they are clever, and just disguise the plagiarism, taking only parts, the plotline (adding just a couple of things here and there) or historical research. In these cases, it's more difficult to 'catch' the culprit red-handed. But it takes just one little slip from him/her for me shredding him/her to pieces. Those of you here who know me from other places like the RK Forums know what I mean. I'm not a patient with morons, I deal with them Saitou style. In fact I wear proudly displayed on my back the patent of bitch.

It's not that I don't like to share research or anything, but TO ME, is UNFAIR to take the data from someone else (which in some cases might take time, even hours), without politely ask and quote the source. If I catch someone doing that, God help him/her. The sight won't be nice after I leave him/her (*cracks knuckles, Sano style, then goes to do some kata with her watou*).



In brief, while Mary Sues are to me the trademark of poor writing (which can be corrected later), I can even tolerate them, when I compare my tolerance to plagiarists. I have been harsh to some people in my reviews about their Mary Sues, but I'm absolutely merciless with plagiarists.


Because, in the end, Mary Sues can be overcome as time progresses and the writer develops his/her style. But plagiarisms is a terminal disease, with no cure.


Firuze

SHQ - Shinsengumi Headquarters
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/

Coming soon: SHQ - The Website
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/

SHQ Spy Office -- SHQ LiveJournal
http://wwww.livejournal.com/~shq_spy_office




---------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ_Spy_Division/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
SHQ_Spy_Division-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Firuze Khanume <crouching_tiger_realm@...> wrote:

>>In the specific case of Tokio, what annoys me the most is that this Mary Sue version is the one which is probably the most approved and loved, sometimes with slight variants (no being the best swordsman, but still beating the crap out of Saitou and any other strong fighter at hand, still being loved by everybody at the Kamiya dojo, etc, everybody falling for her beauty and finesse, superb cook that can humiliate Kaoru tenfold, and Saitou is slave to her whims, just with a snap of her fingers).<<

Agree with you totally!! What also annoys the hell out of me is the complaints about how dare Saitou even consider *looking* at someone else. Come on, people... he's a male! He's also samurai and they had their own ideas about what was permissable. And, let's face it, it was also probably an arranged marriage that might not have been romantic or fulfilling (and that's just speculation, not any kind of inside track --- just something that's possible). I really resent comments that make it clear to me that anything but a monogamous, adoring husband is all Saitou can be. (Being a SaiSa writer, I get my fair share.)

>>It's not that I don't like to share research or anything, but TO ME, is UNFAIR to take the data from someone else (which in some cases might take time, even hours), without politely ask and quote the source. <<

Hmmm... This can get sticky, especially when we're sitting here with a sizable group of RK and PMK fic writers who have access to wonderful information and especially like to incorporate the real Saitou's life into RK or PMK Saitou's. Many of us are bound to end up with the first wife in upcoming stories now that we know she existed, for instance. I tend to include notes with my stories, often just telling what I know of the history and then encouraging people to join us at SHQ (previously at miburo). If I have to start documenting sources, I'm going to end up hating writing. The research I do is for fun, because I want to enrich a character or story, and I'd hope it would spark ideas in others, inspiring them to write. I don't think I'm understanding... can you give me an example of how "research" is stolen when it comes to fanfic? (My confusion is genuine... re-reading what I just wrote it comes off nasty, but I don't mean for it to... maybe we just have different
expectations of what happens to information when it's shared in a story.)

Hours? More like *days*, especially when dealing with the evil babelfish... :-D (And it's people like Tiffany and others who google and babelfish that spare me spending *weeks*!)

>>Sometimes they are clever, and just disguise the plagiarism, taking only parts, the plotline (adding just a couple of things here and there) or historical research. In these cases, it's more difficult to 'catch' the culprit red-handed. But it takes just one little slip from him/her for me shredding him/her to pieces.<<

sigh... This is the primary reason I don't read while I'm actively writing. I don't want to be influenced, even subconsciously. But how am I suppose to prove that I didn't steal something that's addressed in another story? The concept of a teacher/student based relationship between Saitou and Sano is hardly unusual and can create some of the same scenarios among writers. FarStrider wrote a wonderful tale recently involving Saitou telling Sano a story when he was sick... something that's floated around in my own head long before she posted the story because I've always envisioned Saitou feeling paternal towards Sano on occasion. She took it to a most magnificent extreme by telling the story itself, but am I plagiarizing now if in a playful mood Saitou tells Sano a story as part of the night's proceedings (not necessarily making the story he tells part of my story, but just that he tells Sano a story)? I begin to feel uncomfortable that in the last chapter of "Yasou" Sano asks
Saitou if he can read German, ostensibly with the idea of having Saitou do what Sagara did --- tell him the stories (and in fact I did think about removing it because FarStrider's story was so recent). I'm sensitive to not wanting to seem to be taking another's idea, but the fact is, sometimes minds do think alike. My first contact with Angrybee was after I wrote something and then read the latest chapter of "Hajime & Tokio" and whatever it was (I've since forgotten exactly what) was too close for comfort. I promptly shot off an email explaining I had written whatever it was before I'd read the chapter, but the fact is, I wouldn't have known about the similarity if I hadn't gotten sucked into her story before I finally began writing. And she only had my word that I hadn't stolen whatever it was from her chapter. Heaven only knows (well, the avid RK reader would probably know, too) how many ideas in my stories are in others. (I'm not well-read in SaiSa fic... not like
I was in K/S from Star Trek.)

Confused again... where does one draw the line at what is plagiarism? (I suppose this is what I get for not being able to read and write at the same time... density). I *do*, however, understand that wholescale plagiarism does occur. I'm talking about ideas or actions. And how am I to convince someone I *didn't* know the same thing or something similar was in a story of theirs?

Incredible things to think about, Firuze. I don't think I've ever encountered a discussion about these things. I'm glad you brought them up.

phil (chewing her nails... OMG, what have I inadvertently stolen?)


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have to agree with Phil about it being a very sticky situation. I keep up with certain authors, but it's been a while since I could go through the entire list and seen what other stories are out there. I have no way of knowing if an idea that comes to me because of a specific fact comes to light or I notice something strange about a show, etc. has been picked up and used by another or not half the time. I'm certainly not going to spend HOURS scrolling through every story just to make double sure. Someone brought up on another forum something similar to an idea I've been working out for some time now. I have a witness who can validate this claim. I'm not going to scrape my story now because someone else has suddenly had the same stray thought and MIGHT use it.

This actually happened to another member of the group. Someone else here (I will not mention a name unless they want to identify themself) had a wonderful and very original story idea a while back and I was very much looking forward to reading their fic. But then we were shocked to run across a fic already on ff.net that had the EXACT same plotline they was going to use! And this was someone neither of us knew at all, so there was no way one of them could have gotten the idea from the other. What's more, they had discussed this fic with me for weeks before the story showed up on the site. Needless to say, the story was never written.

The thing is ANYONE can find these things out for themselves with just a bit of digging. It's not like we have a monopoly on it or that we didn't get it from someone else ourselves. Furthermore, part of the idea behind these groups is to gather as much info as we can on the Shinsengumi so we can write better fics about the boys in blue and white be it in RK, PMK, or other fanfics, etc. Inevitably we are going to have "facts" in our stories that are the same. I doubt any of our members who appreciate being attacked on the grounds that they borrowed historical reasearch from here. And I feel no obligation to mention that much of mine came from here other than to try to encourage others to join our cause to spread the word of the dignity and honor of the Shinsengumi.

I fully intend to write a fic about Yaso in the near future. I don't really care who else does. I think it's fair to say I've contributed my fair share of information to the pool. I have no qualms about another writer using any information that I've contributed. Why? Because ultimately the history of Saito and the Shinsengumi doesn't belong to me no matter how much effort I put into finding out new information. And if I hadn't found those things, eventually someone else here would have. Again that's why these particular groups were created, so anyone who has a problem with their fellow writers using info they found probably shouldn't post it here in the first place.

And as far as "Mary Sue Tokio" goes? If I don't like-ey, I don't read-ey. End of story.

-MissBehavin (Has Saito ready to Gatotsu anyone who unjustly accuses our members of stealing data.)

spiritus saitou wrote:

Confused again... where does one draw the line at what is plagiarism? (I
suppose this is what I get for not being able to read and write at the
same time... density). I *do*, however, understand that wholescale
plagiarism does occur. I'm talking about ideas or actions. And how am I
to convince someone I *didn't* know the same thing or something similar
was in a story of theirs>>

In the publishing world the most notable case that was won by the
original writer was because the other writer (who oddly enough was a
"big name" herself) was won because actually passages of the original
author's text were copied. Stealing someone's exact original words is
plagiarism .

You can't claim ownership to titles or ideas in general

The person who tried to sue JK Rowling lost because while they said
their idea was the same as the one Rowling used and that they used
similar words for the same things Muggles etc. I do believe they lost
because they couldn't produce exact instances of copied passages of text.

If I'm mistaken in this I'm sure someone will correct me. I didn't
follow that Potter case close enough to keep up on all the exact details.

For those of us writing RK and PMK etc we only have a small body of
reference material to work with the anime, manga and such so I think
it's inevitable that we're going to overlap in some things such as
Saitou eventually adopting Eiji. I used that in my Saitou/Tokio fic and
I know others whose stories came after mine have as well.

--
Barbara Sheridan
http://www.barbarasheridan.net

If you guys visit the Japanese msgboards (not only 3-hajime) many
posters basically say "thank you" to the webmasters for providing them
with info to work with in their fanfiction (the site with all the
Shinsengumi charts)...ALOT of overlapping occurs the only unique
difference is how the characters react to the situation...that's what
I've noticed...I like unique little interpretations like how S.H. is a
vegetarian (he eats only soba and is keen on the smell of blood)
that's an example of creative insight

and remember that in all Shinsengumi media there is always a
disclaimer thingy that says all characters a fictional any simiilarity
to a real person is fictional...I always think that's pretty funny:)

so I think all research is public domain here...and in Japan from the
messageboards I've read

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Sheridan
wrote:

> For those of us writing RK and PMK etc we only have a small body of
> reference material to work with the anime, manga and such so I think
> it's inevitable that we're going to overlap in some things such as
> Saitou eventually adopting Eiji. I used that in my Saitou/Tokio fic and
> I know others whose stories came after mine have as well.
>
> --
> Barbara Sheridan
> http://www.barbarasheridan.net

I think Mary Sues are interesting...young or undeveloped writers need
a starting point and it reveals how everyone wants to create the
perfect hero to beat up on S.H.

Firuze, I think you should be a special officer who monitors internal
affairs seeing how you Aku Soku Zan the bad apples:)

But should everyone "reserve their ideas?" first so everyone knows so
and so thought of it...but that would ruin everything :(

Like I have a an idea for the challenge Saitou & Girls...its not even
a comedy (it is actually quiet scary) but in my mind its a good idea
(and I can't stop thinking about it)

Now what if I post a treatment and allow more skilled writers to bring
this tale to life?

I used to work as an intern in a studio office and I read screenplays
which were all the same the difference is in setting and sometimes the
bosses even like ideas but hate the execution and the poor writer who
made the critical mistake of Fedexing a 500 treatment thing to the
office with no strings attached (to try to get a contract or
something) gets nothing...in fact it is COMMON to have the bosses take
the good idea script...give it to a screenwriter they like to
revise...and so it doesn't surprise me that there are bitter writers
out there who insist the idea was theirs first.

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, spiritus saitou
wrote:

> Agree with you totally!! What also annoys the hell out of me is

the

>complaints about how dare Saitou even consider *looking* at someone
>else. Come on, people... he's a male! He's also samurai and they
>had their own ideas about what was permissable. And, let's face it,
>it was also probably an arranged marriage that might not have been
>romantic or fulfilling (and that's just speculation, not any kind of
>inside track --- just something that's possible). I really resent
>comments that make it clear to me that anything but a monogamous,
>adoring husband is all Saitou can be. (Being a SaiSa writer, I get
>my fair share.)

I think a lot of that stems from people not having open minds that
characters could, just possibly, be very different from how they
personally envision them. I mean, as you know, I'm a big fan of
Saitou being a loyal husband, and yet, I've also read some
Saitou/Sano
fanfiction which was very well done, moving, clever and enthralling.
If we don't allow authors the freedom to explore characters (and
possibilities) to the nth degree, then what, exactly, is fanfiction
all about? Why read it, if it is just going to tell the same story
over and over?

That's the exciting part, in my mind, when authors come up with
something new and a little dangerous. It should make the reader
nervous. It should challenge what they think is -true- about their
favorite characters. And yet, at the same time, the author must do
with without bringing the story to the sin of complete random
OOCness.

(I think I got off on a tangent. My apologies.)

>I tend to include notes with my stories, often just telling what I ?
>know of the history and then encouraging people to join us at SHQ
>(previously at miburo). If I have to start documenting sources, I'm
>going to end up hating writing.

I also include historical notes, where applicable. Mostly because I
do my research on the internet (which is available to everyone), and
the internet is not always -correct-. I've had a lot of good
reviewers come and point out mistranslations that I've used or
information that I used which was less than valid. And this is
-good-, in my opinion, because then I can change the story and avoid
further embarrassing myself. (HA! AS IF I'D EVER STOP EMBARRASSING
MYSELF.)

I really don't mind people stealing my research. Especially because
I think it promotes more interest in the community and in the subject.

If you see something you like in my story, and it makes you think
"HM. I wonder if that is true. I wonder if I could find out more
about that," and then you do additional research and begin your own
story...I end up benefitting. I benefit because there is now another
story out there, about a topic I'm interested in, and I get to read
it. HOw cool is that?

(But, I'm going to stop here, because I'm just re-iterating what
phil,
and others, already said.)

On the subject of plagarism, well, I'm a bit -befuddled- by the whole
thing. After I finished writing "Hajime and Tokio", I found that a
few different people had begun writing stories with very similar
themes, wording, speech patterns, characters, and plots. (And a few
sections lifted, pretty much, directly from what I had written...)

For a while, I was upset. But, then I became less upset. It was
flattering, really, if I thought about it. These were obviously very
young writers, just starting out. So, I did the only thing I could
do, which was leave them reviews telling them I was reading their
story, and that I hoped they were having fun writing it, and that I
was glad more people were writing about my favorite pairing.

Usually, they either stopped writing the story right away, and
deleted it...Or, they thanked me for reading and were very happy for
any advice I could give on how to become a better writer. (And I try
to oblige, even though I generally don't have any CLUE what I am
doing, writing-wise. Nonetheless, I try not to give them completely
BAD information.)

>My first contact with Angrybee was after I wrote something and then
>read the latest chapter of "Hajime & Tokio" and whatever it was

(I've

>since forgotten exactly what) was too close for comfort. I promptly
>shot off an email explaining I had written whatever it was before

I'd

>read the chapter, but the fact is, I wouldn't have known about the
>similarity if I hadn't gotten sucked into her story before I finally
>began writing. And she only had my word that I hadn't stolen

whatever

>it was from her chapter. Heaven only knows (well, the avid RK

reader

>would probably know, too) how many ideas in my stories are in

others.

Did that really happen? Haha. *scratch head* I don't remember
that.

(Then again, I can't even remember what I just ordered for lunch, so
don't mind me.) Well, several people have mailed me similar things,
and I -know- I have mailed other authors saying "I didn't meant to
steal XYZ! I swear, I wrote about it before I even read your latest
story." I think it just happens. Thankfully, none of us are getting
paid, (Are we? Shoot. I've been snookered.) and I think we're
mostly doing this for the love of our particular fandoms, so minor
mishaps and coincidences should, in my opinion, be overlooked.

> Confused again... where does one draw the line at what is
>plagiarism?

I think there are lines which you should not cross, definitely, even
if I do feel a bit lenient on the topic. Plots and character traits
are often going to end up similar, I think, because we have a base
character stock from which we draw, and (unless we write AUs), must
fit them into the timeline we know from history or anime.

But, there are other things, personal to a writer, which are
sacrosanct.

One thing that would annoy me greatly is if people stole -humorous-
excerpts from my stories. I think my own humor is very distinct, and
I work very hard on my humor stories, on the pacing and the wording,
trying to make them as funny as possible. I mean, it would be
obvious if someone stole themes from "A Sakabatou For Baka Saitou" or
"The Hitokiri Stainmaster". And, I think I would be furious if they
did.

Now, why is that different from people lifting stuff from my other
story, "Hajime and Tokio"? I'm not sure. I don't know what the line
is between feeling flattered and feeling completely miffed?

Maybe the difference is that I think the writing in "Hajime and
Tokio" is better than the humor stories. So, if some young writer
lifts from H&T, it's a flattering compliment. It's saying "I want to
be a better writer. I want to be like you." But, the humor stuff
isn't good writing. It is just amusing. So, the only reason to steal
it...is for the purposes of getting reviews or making others think
you're funny. And, then I feel used.

Well, I am going to stop here before I sound like a bitchy bitchy
bitch. I think it may be too late, though, for that.

Angrybee.

Hi, minna!

>>Agree with you totally!! What also annoys the hell out of me is the complaints about how dare Saitou even consider *looking* at someone else. Come on, people... he's a male! He's also samurai and they had their own ideas about what was permissable. And, let's face it, it was also probably an arranged marriage that might not have been romantic or fulfilling (and that's just speculation, not any kind of inside track --- just something that's possible). I really resent comments that make it clear to me that anything but a monogamous, adoring husband is all Saitou can be. (Being a SaiSa writer, I get my fair share.)<<

Ohohoho� this is a slippery path we are getting into, phil� You see, while personally I don�t see him having affairs, I do not do it from a �they are meant for each other/eternal love� perspective. It has to do more with practicality and his nature, at least as I understand it. To get entangled in love affairs can bring unwanted waste of time and may compromise security and the quality of his job. Besides, I see him as a guy committed to his word. Aside of these objections, for any other man, yes, the scenario is very likely. Not only because he is a man, but because of the time period and the conventions of what was allowed to males then. This woud be un-Politically Correct now, to say the least, however, visits to brothels, lovers and concubines were very, very, very common in XIX century, East and West alike. The idea of non arranged marriages in the West is also pretty new. In any case, I had this little chat before about Kenshin . Realistically speaking, like in Saitou�s case,
there is a HIGH chance that (if he had been a human being, and not an ink-and-paper creature), as a man, he would have had his fair share of affairs. Straight, homosexual, etc. Because, that�s the way humans are. So if you want to be realistic, yeah, he can have affairs, or AT LEAST feel temptation (though personally for the above mentioned reasons, I don�t feel likely, but that�s my personal take on it). I find that in this area many people feels very strongly and come with the idea of Celibate Love Gods, which IMO is barely possible.

>>And as far as "Mary Sue Tokio" goes? If I don't like-ey, I don't read-ey. End of story.<<

Concerning general MS, well, I respect your opinion MissB, but I don�t share it, as you don�t have to share mine.

In any case, if I find one specially annoying, I prefer to point it out. And I do it with the sincere intention to help the author, not to make mock of her/him. I only get upset if the author can�t take the criticism the right way ( The right way to me is �politely�, she has the right to disagree with me too, and I have to accept this) and lashes out. In this case, I answer back.

Firuze




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi minna (revisited) !

Of research, history, and plagiarism, part I


Oh well, as I personally own a couple of ML, in my case I'd prefer the ML quoted, because I assume the individual members wouldn't mind it as long as the group is benefited by the sharing of info.

However, I have a personal trick. Whenever I find in a site, or a ML something I might add later to a fic, I simply take the info (cut and paste) and add a note from where and whom I took it, and save it in a file of Notes (I usually have up till four Notes files for each fic, including some stuff I take out from any particular scene and can be used later or elsewhere).

But as I said somewhere else (I can't remember... brain cell is semi melted lately), this little obsession in my case is a professional vice, since I write books and articles for a religious Foundation, and adding footnotes are as common as daily bread for me.

Taking from ML info is different, but as I said, just giving the group's link solves it all, and it's a courtesy and a healthy habit, at least, it�s my opinion. Helps the group grows, and as MissB said we all benefit and share here, so, it's ok not to quote the exact person, but my personal take is that at least the group should be mentioned. What I mean by �stealing plotlines� is other issue, much in the vein of what Tiffany mentioned: small plot twists, unique details that can be called: creative insight (like assuming Saitou might be vegetarian, for example. This is an original though, not unlikely, but unheard of before). The stealing of ideas is shown in these details, when someone else copy these details or even certain events and the subsequent the reactions to them.

I don't meant that having the same �general ideas� is stealing. If you have a student/teacher relationship, that's a general idea, and it's NOT stealing. As the adopting of Eiji, which in the context is very likely, it's not farfetched at all, and I think many people might agree on this. So, I don't see this as stealing. Stealing ideas is, as I said above, more a thing of small details, like some very unlikely and original plot twists, made just by only one person before.

In any case, I think that phil�s policy with Angrybee fic is the right one. If someone has one idea and she finds it�s similar to someone else�s, who has posted it previously, why don't mention it to this author prior to post the chapter? And if it discovered afterwards, why don't write that author and tell her/him anyway? It's a mere courtesy, as old fashioned as it might sound. To me, even if it a bit annoying and I have to take extra time, I prefer this course of action, to avoid later and unpleasant misunderstandings. In my case, I think it's the right thing to do, but it's just my opinion.



I'll give a personal example here of what I meant: I made in one of my fics two characters played shogi. In that period (early Meiji) wasn't that popular as a game, and it would have been more logical to use Go. Only three samurai families really played it to the full extent at this period. In brief, from a pure historical POV wasn't accurate to use shogi, but I consciously made the choice.

But, Lo, and behold! I found someone else who few weeks later I used it, (in the same section of RK fandom, this is the Enishi one), as with the almost exact author notes about the game (I didn't mentioned the fact that the game wasn't popular during early Meiji, though, and this author casually also overlooked it). All in all, it looked fishy to me, and it spoiled the taste for this particular fic. (with some other details in the absolute and unlikely OOCness area, but I digress).

Anyway, what I mean is that historical facts belongs to everybody, as every writer obviously also knows to read, and everybody can get a history book from the local library or bookshop. Then there are common facts and fanons, and deductions that can be easily made by everyone (like in Eiji�s adoption case). These things are fair game and available for everyone, and even if there is some overlapping, it�s ok. Sorry if I wasn't clear on this. Now, when I mention stealing plot lines and ideas, I mean this: if you find a fic that goes from A to B to C, in the same fashion other does, and you find the characterization, the character development, and very specially certain unique details, etc, in brief it is just too similar to other, well, you have to be suspicious.

Also, when you see historical info stripped right to the last comma from someone's else authors notes (as I saw it happened is several cases, and people, please read again, I meant AUTHOR'S NOTES, not the group data), without the due credit as I've seen, SORRY, I REACT BAD. That's the easy way, and yes, it's plagiarism to me. You don't have to agree with my opinion, people. It's just that, an opinion. An opinion I act upon, though. So, if I see someone else taking authors notes to the smallest detail (including personal comments) without quoting, sorry, I proceed to thoroughly trample down the culprit.

I'll also give another personal example of what can be called 'coincidence in good faith'. Usually, I plan fics from A to Z before I start to write them, so I had planned an scene with a reference to one of Verne's books, I took care of reading the book and took the quotes I'd use, etc... Months later, but before I posted the said chapter, another writer in the section, also used Verne�s reference, though in a TOTALLY different light and approach. So I used phil�s policy here too. I wrote to her warning her I'd also quote him, and after this, I mentioned it in a public review of her fic. I could not avoid the reference, since it was pivotal to the plot. I needed a XIX century Sci Fi writer, and while Cyrano de Bergerac's works are even earlier, I don't think the character reminding these particular passages of the book in question would have access to Cyrano's works. H.G. Wells wasn't an option, because his works weren't available for the period I had in mind. So, there, I was stuck
between a rock and a hard place. But then, I wrote the author privately and publicly, and made an author�s note about it, explaining in long detail why I did the choice. It was boring, tiresome, and annoying, but I think it�s the best way to avoid suspicions and uncomfortable situations. And to me is a simple due courtesy. It�s what I do, but it doesn�t mean everybody has to agree with me.

I agree with everybody here about this being a tricky situation, as it can happen to anyone; that�s why I think that being clear about it with the concerned parties might help a lot to avoid awkward situations we could be thrown unwittingly into.

Just my two cents...

See you

Firuze




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Tiffany!

>>But should everyone "reserve their ideas?" first so everyone knows so

and so thought of it...but that would ruin everything :( <<

To me here is a difference: when you voluntarily relinquish any claim on the ownership of your idea, or shares it with a group of people offering it freely for use, it�s a different situation than when you take this idea of yours, develops it, and suddenly, a little bit later, you find the same idea with the same basic premises used elsewhere. In the first case, as I said, it�s freely given, and it gives a little pleasure to you to see your idea developed by those people you talk with. But when it�s ripped off from what you have done with your effort, then it�s not pleasurable at all.

>>I used to work as an intern in a studio office and I read screenplays

which were all the same the difference is in setting and sometimes the
bosses even like ideas but hate the execution and the poor writer who
made the critical mistake of Fedexing a 500 treatment thing to the
office with no strings attached (to try to get a contract or
something) gets nothing...in fact it is COMMON to have the bosses take
the good idea script...give it to a screenwriter they like to
revise...and so it doesn't surprise me that there are bitter writers
out there who insist the idea was theirs first.<<

Yes, stealing of ideas happens. But, actually, when some of these persons can prove ownership, they sue. The difference between being bitter and righteous is the same between having proofs and not having them. If you don�t have any, just keeps it to yourself and your inner circle. When you have proofs, you simply go for the kill. (heheh in Miburo style, as it couldn�t be otherwise, thanks Tiffany for your comment about Internal Affairs� *sharpens watou in the meantime* LOL!)

See you

Firuze



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:

> And as far as "Mary Sue Tokio" goes? If I don't like-ey, I don't
>read-ey. End of story.

Ah, but sometimes, you know, you just can't look away. It's such a
train wreck, and you are drawn in...seduced by the grotesque. I
guess, I sometimes read Mary Sue stories for the same reason I watch
horror movies. Just as it is good to know my arm isn't being gnawed
off by zombies, it is also good to know that I am -not- as bad of a
writer as I sometimes like to think.

> -MissBehavin (Has Saito ready to Gatotsu anyone who unjustly accuses

our members of stealing data.)

Ah, I see it now, the Shinsengumi-fans, gathering our boats, sailing
off into the wide-wide internet, our Makoto flags unfurled, our
eyepatches and parrots in tow...

"Arrrrr. We're here for your DATA. We've come to pillage your
research. Hand it over, or feel our wrath!

Angrybee.

In a message dated 5/4/2004 2:47:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mindglue@... writes:

> > And as far as "Mary Sue Tokio" goes? If I don't like-ey, I don't
> >read-ey. End of story.
>
> Ah, but sometimes, you know, you just can't look away. It's such a
> train wreck, and you are drawn in...seduced by the grotesque. I
> guess, I sometimes read Mary Sue stories for the same reason I watch
> horror movies. Just as it is good to know my arm isn't being gnawed
> off by zombies, it is also good to know that I am -not- as bad of a
> writer as I sometimes like to think.
>
> > -MissBehavin (Has Saito ready to Gatotsu anyone who unjustly accuses
> our members of stealing data.)
>
> Ah, I see it now, the Shinsengumi-fans, gathering our boats, sailing
> off into the wide-wide internet, our Makoto flags unfurled, our
> eyepatches and parrots in tow...
>
> "Arrrrr. We're here for your DATA. We've come to pillage
> your
> research. Hand it over, or feel our wrath!
>
> Angrybee.

I understand all that about the train wreck. Done that a time or two myself. But I was thinking, we've all recently seen a "Mary Sue" in a popular anime and loved her to death! Who do I mean? Ayu-nee! She fits the criteria laid down almost exactly in that 1) Everyone loves her, 2) She's always solving everyone's problems for them with her advice and 3) even though the Shinsengumi are master swordsmen, it is sadly apparent she can kick most of their tails... So, Mary Sue-nee anyone? (Yes, I know she's an "original" character, but she probably began as a "Mary Sue" somewhere, ne?)


And I still maintain the Gatotsu threat. I don't want anyone here who uses info we've gathered to be accused by someone unconnected to the group of stealing "their story" or "their data" because they have the same info. I will lead a mass charge in that person's defense. Going several rounds with the goldfish and then it's evil brother has made me cranky. Esp. after I realized I've HAD the info I've been looking for all along! -_- Sometimes, you really can have TOO much info.

Yeah, there's another translator service we can gripe about now. It's called Alis Translation Solutions and the name of the program is Gist. For good reason. That's about all you'll get of the page - the gist. (On a serious note, in some cases it's worse, but in others the translation is clearer and easier to figure out.)

-MissBehavin (being glared at by Saito, who was under the false impression he was going to see some immediate action...)

unsafesects <mindglue@...> (aka Angrybee) wrote:

>>Ah, I see it now, the Shinsengumi-fans, gathering our boats, sailing off into the wide-wide internet, our Makoto flags unfurled, our eyepatches and parrots in tow...

"Arrrrr. We're here for your DATA. We've come to pillage your
research. Hand it over, or feel our wrath!<<

:-D Someone should draw a picture of this so we can use it as a banner... If only ff.net would allow it!! Maybe our flag should also have the babelfish icon.

phil (who wants to reply to the more serious previous posts, but too playful to be serious right now...)


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/4/2004 3:18:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, spiritus_saitou@... writes:

> >>Ah, I see it now, the Shinsengumi-fans, gathering our boats, sailing off into the wide-wide internet, our Makoto flags unfurled, our eyepatches and parrots in tow...
>
> "Arrrrr. We're here for your DATA. We've come to pillage your
> research. Hand it over, or feel our wrath!<<
>
> :-D Someone should draw a picture of this so we can use it as a banner... If only ff.net would allow it!! Maybe our flag should also have the babelfish icon.
>
> phil (who wants to reply to the more serious previous
> posts, but too playful to be serious right now...)

Agreed. We need that banner.

Hey, I've discovered the Babelfish has an evil brother. It's Alis Translation Solutions and the program is Gist. And that's all you get of the page - the gist. Seriously, in some ways it is worse, but occassionally it is clearer than the fish. And it translated both the www.3-hajime.com and the www.toshizo.com/toshizo/ sites with no problems. The fish has been giving me error messages for weeks now... -GASP- So is this it for the evil carp?! Will the babelfish babble no more on my computer?! Stay tuned to find out...

-Snicker- I was just glancing back at that forum I mentioned earlier and realized something. Angrybee, you're the one who brought up that idea I was talking about. I've been thinking of a story where Kenshin never trains with Hiko and ends up on the other side of the fight! O.o" Are you a mind reader?!

-Alicia

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:

> -Snicker- I was just glancing back at that forum I mentioned earlier
>and realized something. Angrybee, you're the one who brought up that
>idea I was talking about. I've been thinking of a story where Kenshin
>never trains with Hiko and ends up on the other side of the fight! O.
>o" Are you a mind reader?!
>
> -Alicia

I think it may be going around. I swear I thought that up all by
myself, and then I took a look at Haku Baikou's site and saw this:

Pechan posted this to the HB site on May 2nd:
http://www.hakubaikou.com/contributors/pechan/shinsenkenshin.jpg

Dur. It must be in the AIR or something.

Angrybee.

In a message dated 5/4/2004 3:35:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mindglue@... writes:

>
> I think it may be going around. I swear I thought that up all by
> myself, and then I took a look at Haku Baikou's site and saw this:
>
> Pechan posted this to the HB site on May 2nd:
> http://www.hakubaikou.com/contributors/pechan/shinsenkenshin
> .jpg
>
> Dur. It must be in the AIR or something.
>
> Angrybee.

Same here. I've been talking with Barb about this idea for months now, but with all my other stories I haven't had a chance to write it yet. Hm, that link won't let me on the site. It says it's forbidden.

-MissBehavin

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, Warg3791@a... wrote:

> Same here. I've been talking with Barb about this idea for months

now, but with all my other stories I haven't had a chance to write it
yet. Hm, that link won't let me on the site. It says it's forbidden.

>
> -MissBehavin

Sorry. The .jpg part got moved to the next line.

http://www.hakubaikou.com/contributors/pechan/shinsenkenshin.jpg

Try that?

Angrybee

In a message dated 5/4/2004 8:46:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mindglue@... writes:

> > Same here. I've been talking with Barb about this idea for months
> now, but with all my other stories I haven't had a chance to write it
> yet. Hm, that link won't let me on the site. It says it's forbidden.
> >
> > -MissBehavin
>
> Sorry. The .jpg part got moved to the next line.
>
> http://www.hakubaikou.com/contributors/pechan/shinsenkenshin
> .jpg
>
> Try that?
>
> Angrybee

Still won't work. Is this something you have to have a password or the like to enter? If so, I'm not registered with them and that's the problem.

Hm, I'll probably scrape that one after all then. That idea must be some sort of infectious disease! ^_^ Get your "Hijikata converts Kenshin into Shinsengumi" shot now!

-MissBehavin

> I also wanted to blather a bit about Mary Sues. You can often

find

> her posing under the name "Tokio" in many fanfics. She's somehow

a

> swordswoman who can take down the entire Shinsengumi, but, in her
> off-time, she's stunningly beautiful, charming, and poised. Also,

she

> can verbally browbeat (RK) Saitou into doing whatever she wants,
> turning her Wolf into a puppy with a snap of the fingers.
>
> And everyone in the Kamiya dojo ADORES her.
>
> I'd go on, but then I would be targeting specific stories, and

that's

> just mean.
>
> Angrybee.

Hi Angrybee... That's a really interesting take on Mary Sues. It's
kind of interesting that since this is now out in the open, the
reasons you said above is primarily the reason I don't dare write a
Tokio x Saitou story. When do does one overstep the boundaries? A
lot of people seems to like this kind of portrait of Tokio but
personally, I don't. So those that makes it to my favorite stories
list tokio x saitou are those few who doesn't create an invincible
Tokio. Still though when writing, I'm a bit afraid that I do the
same thing to my OC. Oh well.. *sighs* Such is the fate of an
inexperienced psuedo-writer. I only hope that whoever reads my story
will be kind enough to mention if I overstep this boundary.

I cannot agree with you more about Kaoru, maybe another reason why I
don't usually read Kaoru stories.... Nor Kenshin (unless we have him
teethering back to battousai) unfortunately. I think they are just
TOO perfect for my taste.

As for plagiarism... Well I just think it's unforgivable... I try to
tell people where, who I happen to hear the idea from or from where
I got the data (usually it's the miburo/SHQ group) for a chapter
etc. Personally I haven't read a lot of fanfics, except those that
are housed here in the Spy division, so I can't tell you I've found
plagiarism in ff.net. I'm sure though that it's present, it's like
saying we are the only form of life form in the universe (coz that's
just improbable)...

I was just wondering if there's such a thing as "accidental
plagiarism"? Because with the number of fanfics and the limited
hours to read through what's out there, how can we be sure we're not
copying someone elses work?


--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, Firuze Khanume
wrote:

> Hi, all!!
> >I also wanted to blather a bit about Mary Sues. You can often

find

> her posing under the name "Tokio" in many fanfics. She's somehow

a

> swordswoman who can take down the entire Shinsengumi, but, in her
> off-time, she's stunningly beautiful, charming, and poised. Also,

she

> can verbally browbeat (RK) Saitou into doing whatever she wants,
> turning her Wolf into a puppy with a snap of the fingers.
>
> And everyone in the Kamiya dojo ADORES her.
>
> I'd go on, but then I would be targeting specific stories, and

that's

> just mean.
>
> Angrybee.<
>
>
> Ah, yes, you are SO right here.
>
>
>
> In fact I could include most latest depictions of Kaoru here as

Mary Sue too, where she is a goddess and has all RK males pinning
after her, changing the hearts of everyone she is in touch with, she
is oh-so perfect and compassionate that she is at the verge of being
raised to the Altars, and worshipped, so beautiful that the moon
pales in comparison, etc, etc, etc.

>
>
>
> In the specific case of Tokio, what annoys me the most is that

this Mary Sue version is the one which is probably the most approved
and loved, sometimes with slight variants (no being the best
swordsman, but still beating the crap out of Saitou and any other
strong fighter at hand, still being loved by everybody at the Kamiya
dojo, etc, everybody falling for her beauty and finesse, superb cook
that can humiliate Kaoru tenfold, and Saitou is slave to her whims,
just with a snap of her fingers).

>
> Sadly, it's also the one that receives hundreds of reviews. Not

that getting tons of reviews reflects the quality of a fic. In fact,
IMO, is quite the opposite in most cases, but of course, it's just
my opinion. For instance, I'm primarily an Enishi fan and I see this
more closely in the E/K realm. There is a jewel there, its
title 'The Affair', and though it's doing fine on its own, I see
that other fics with the infamous Mary Sue Kaoru are vastly more
popular.

>
>
>
> Anyway, maybe it's the number of teenagers discovering fanfiction,

I don't know, but Mary Sues in disguise as RK characters are common
nowadays, as much as stealing complete fanfics, research or author
notes shamelessly, a thing terribly common as I said before, even
among well known authors.

>
>
>
> In the AoshiMisao ML, one of the authors has just denounced the

plagiarism of her fics, And I've denounced abuse no less than six
times in cases of fics I've realized were stolen during last year.
It's funny to see how this works: they 'fish' among authors that had
stopped publishing for several months or even years, and then they
copy the whole plot, the actual fic, the authors notes, etc.

>
>
>
> Sometimes they are clever, and just disguise the plagiarism,

taking only parts, the plotline (adding just a couple of things here
and there) or historical research. In these cases, it's more
difficult to 'catch' the culprit red-handed. But it takes just one
little slip from him/her for me shredding him/her to pieces. Those
of you here who know me from other places like the RK Forums know
what I mean. I'm not a patient with morons, I deal with them Saitou
style. In fact I wear proudly displayed on my back the patent of
bitch.

>
> It's not that I don't like to share research or anything, but TO

ME, is UNFAIR to take the data from someone else (which in some
cases might take time, even hours), without politely ask and quote
the source. If I catch someone doing that, God help him/her. The
sight won't be nice after I leave him/her (*cracks knuckles, Sano
style, then goes to do some kata with her watou*).

>
>
>
> In brief, while Mary Sues are to me the trademark of poor writing

(which can be corrected later), I can even tolerate them, when I
compare my tolerance to plagiarists. I have been harsh to some
people in my reviews about their Mary Sues, but I'm absolutely
merciless with plagiarists.

>
>
> Because, in the end, Mary Sues can be overcome as time progresses

and the writer develops his/her style. But plagiarisms is a terminal
disease, with no cure.

>
>
> Firuze
>
> SHQ - Shinsengumi Headquarters
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/
>
> Coming soon: SHQ - The Website
> http://www.shinsengumihq.com/
>
> SHQ Spy Office -- SHQ LiveJournal
> http://wwww.livejournal.com/~shq_spy_office
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ_Spy_Division/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SHQ_Spy_Division-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Grace Battista wrote:

>>I also wanted to blather a bit about Mary Sues. You can often
>>
>>
>find
>
>
>>her posing under the name "Tokio" in many fanfics. She's somehow
>>
>>
>Hi Angrybee... That's a really interesting take on Mary Sues. It's
>kind of interesting that since this is now out in the open, the
>reasons you said above is primarily the reason I don't dare write a
>Tokio x Saitou story.
>

Grace wrote:

Hi Angrybee... That's a really interesting take on Mary Sues. It's
kind of interesting that since this is now out in the open, the
reasons you said above is primarily the reason I don't dare write a
Tokio x Saitou story.>>

I think you can't go wrong if you approach her from a slightly historical perspective. Tokio was a woman of the 19th century probably in an arranged marriage who more than likely came to love her husband as she grew to know him.

I see her being able to defend herself modestly well pre-Saitou and better after her marriage (c'mon he was gone a lot he'd want her to know how to handle things while he was absent).

I see her as silently putting up with his more "difficult" quirks and speaking her mind when it was very important to her to do so.



--
Barbara Sheridan

http://www.barbarasheridan.net



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, "Grace Battista"
wrote:

> Hi Angrybee... That's a really interesting take on Mary Sues. It's
> kind of interesting that since this is now out in the open, the
> reasons you said above is primarily the reason I don't dare write a
> Tokio x Saitou story. When do does one overstep the boundaries? A
> lot of people seems to like this kind of portrait of Tokio but
> personally, I don't.

I should probably say that, just because a story is written with Tokio
as a swordswoman, or with many powerful traits, I don't automatically
label it a Mary Sue. I've seen a couple of -great- stories featuring
Tokio as a swordswoman, even as a very strong swordswoman. But, they
are very rare. For the most part, I see this as a continuing trend to
somehow turn Battousai into a woman (which is also sometimes done very
well, but which is also rare) by proxy of Tokio.

Angrybee.

Are you inviting more speculation from me?
We know of the Fujita family and hist. Saitou specifically from his
brother-in-law...so my guess is the family was closer to the
"mother's" side...we don't have any recorded stuff from the Yamaguchi
family at all other than S.H. (basic stats on mom, dad, brother and
sister).

I will always wonder if hist. Tokio was a widow. She married Fujita
Goro in her early 30s which to me seems kind of late for the time
period.Is it possible that her first husband died at Aizu? Her
previous marriage status may have been cleaned up just as Saitou's
first wife is not mentioned in the Fujita Family Documents (-but- on
3-hajime.com Yasou is categorized as an important figure in his
life...this is the webmaster's organization system and his/her
*opinion* that Yasou DID exist...the article includes his/her
opinions)...we must remember the family documents were cleaned up and
decades past before stuff was written.

Entering the realm of Japanese messageboard speculation...(these are
not my ideas)

1) no record of "lively" love between hist. F.G.. + Tokio...***this is
connected somehow with Jiro Asada/o's novel Mibugishiden (Transmission
Mibu Loyal Retainers)*** but since the movie ends -way- before S.H. is
married maybe the author was interviewed or something? (odd)

2) however F.G. + Tokio walked to work together? <<< many boards will
say this (babelfish) is clear on this...but on 3-hajime.com it is
based on a VERY VAGUE comment from someone, a student if I recall
right, at the school...but again it is repeated from other sites not
3-hajime.com...this is a very weak piece of info because they lived
within walking distance to the school it makes sense to me for them to
go to work at the same time

3) why are there no photos of Tokio + F.G.?
This is because I think everyone is so used to seeing Tokio + son (she
looks awefully good for her age by the way)....to posters no photo =
no love

[another thing to ponder since he did receive a medal the order of the
blue paulownia why didn't they take the occasion and have a portrait
taken?]

4)another interesting comment...Tokio has a face which "conveys
sweetness" and thus they HAD to love each other

***there are sooo many fanfics of HISTORICAL S.H. + Tokio it is
downright scary...I would assume their fanfic would be in the RK realm
but the books on him must be so compelling that they would spawn
fanfic...geez

***some boards understandably will put a warning and say...history
only no anime/manga but then there are threads about historical fanfic

***this is a one line comment I found so I didn't bother to put it on
www.shinsengumimb.com...there is a novel/series of articles published
in Fukushima/Aizu about Saitou this may be a case of historical
fiction or something (sadly no link to magazine or anything provided)

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Sheridan
wrote:

> I think you can't go wrong if you approach her from a slightly

historical perspective. Tokio was a woman of the 19th century probably
in an arranged marriage who more than likely came to love her husband
as she grew to know him.

>

> --
> Barbara Sheridan
>
> http://www.barbarasheridan.net

Well I tend to agree with all of those mentioned below... It had
always been such a mystery to me why there are no photos of them
together, let alone Mrs. Fujita saving a photo of her husband. I
just can't find a reason to in my head. He lived a pretty long life
compared to the rest. Even if they didn't have access to a photo
camera back then, it wouldn't have been so hard to get another
charcoal painting of all of them together or at least the two of
them. Makes me wonder what really was the relationships between
Fujita-san and his wife... Also their children... ??? -__-

On another note... It's kind of interesting how a lot of fanfic
writers took Watsuki's suggestion on how Tokio is like a buddha,
perfect and invincible.... I mean I tend to think that Watsuki just
decided that would be the appropriate reaction of Kenshin/Misao
since RK Saitou was such a badass, so I don't think it's based on
any historical rumor or fact.

On Tokio x Saitou
The interpretation that I like most in the pairing was done by
Steliana, "Through My Eyes" over at ff.net. I'm not sure if she's
writing still. It was just such a breath of fresh air for me since I
tend to think conservatively (not that I'm not for women power).

Also I don't like the type who dominates Saitou-sama in an almost
manly way, manipulative way or "Kaoru-way". I'd like to think of her
as a more subdued type who can reason with him if need be and
consequently have influence on him only through suggestion. I'd like
to think of her as giving him a piece of her mind but ultimately
letting him decide for himself.

But since we really don't have any historical basis for her
personality and relationship with Saitou, I agree with Barbara that
basing her to what women were back then is the safest thing to do. I
won't go so far though as to think she grew to love him, since I
myself have doubts about that in their relationship. Of course in a
fanfic we could say that she eventually loved him... Then again we
could also say she just stayed with him out of saving face, out of
money, out of love for her own family, out of not having any other
lover or out of so many things... :O)



--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, "Tiffany"
wrote:

> Are you inviting more speculation from me?
> We know of the Fujita family and hist. Saitou specifically from his
> brother-in-law...so my guess is the family was closer to the
> "mother's" side...we don't have any recorded stuff from the

Yamaguchi

> family at all other than S.H. (basic stats on mom, dad, brother and
> sister).
>
> I will always wonder if hist. Tokio was a widow. She married

Fujita

> Goro in her early 30s which to me seems kind of late for the time
> period.Is it possible that her first husband died at Aizu? Her
> previous marriage status may have been cleaned up just as Saitou's
> first wife is not mentioned in the Fujita Family Documents (-but-

on

> 3-hajime.com Yasou is categorized as an important figure in his
> life...this is the webmaster's organization system and his/her
> *opinion* that Yasou DID exist...the article includes his/her
> opinions)...we must remember the family documents were cleaned up

and

> decades past before stuff was written.
>
> Entering the realm of Japanese messageboard speculation...(these

are

> not my ideas)
>
> 1) no record of "lively" love between hist. F.G.. +

Tokio...***this is

> connected somehow with Jiro Asada/o's novel Mibugishiden

(Transmission

> Mibu Loyal Retainers)*** but since the movie ends -way- before

S.H. is

> married maybe the author was interviewed or something? (odd)
>
> 2) however F.G. + Tokio walked to work together? <<< many boards

will

> say this (babelfish) is clear on this...but on 3-hajime.com it is
> based on a VERY VAGUE comment from someone, a student if I recall
> right, at the school...but again it is repeated from other sites

not

> 3-hajime.com...this is a very weak piece of info because they lived
> within walking distance to the school it makes sense to me for

them to

> go to work at the same time
>
> 3) why are there no photos of Tokio + F.G.?
> This is because I think everyone is so used to seeing Tokio + son

(she

> looks awefully good for her age by the way)....to posters no photo

=

> no love
>
> [another thing to ponder since he did receive a medal the order of

the

> blue paulownia why didn't they take the occasion and have a

portrait

> taken?]
>
> 4)another interesting comment...Tokio has a face which "conveys
> sweetness" and thus they HAD to love each other
>
> ***there are sooo many fanfics of HISTORICAL S.H. + Tokio it is
> downright scary...I would assume their fanfic would be in the RK

realm

> but the books on him must be so compelling that they would spawn
> fanfic...geez
>
> ***some boards understandably will put a warning and say...history
> only no anime/manga but then there are threads about historical

fanfic

>
> ***this is a one line comment I found so I didn't bother to put it

on

> www.shinsengumimb.com...there is a novel/series of articles

published

> in Fukushima/Aizu about Saitou this may be a case of historical
> fiction or something (sadly no link to magazine or anything

provided)

>
> --- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Sheridan
> wrote:
>
> > I think you can't go wrong if you approach her from a slightly
> historical perspective. Tokio was a woman of the 19th century

probably

> in an arranged marriage who more than likely came to love her

husband

> as she grew to know him.
> >
>
> > --
> > Barbara Sheridan
> >
> > http://www.barbarasheridan.net

well the stuff I listed was speculation from Japanese messageboard
posters.

Remember we do have another painting of him wearing a Shinsengumi
uniform even. I asked about this image on the 3-hajime.com board and
the reply I got was that no one knows where it is and we assume it is
still the property of the family...there is no background info on this
painting at all or even if it was produced when he was alive even.
The pic is not on any website at all.

Here it is (reminder: pics are all at the old Miburo Yahoo Groups
"Files" section)
http://1happyturtle.com/makoto/SH5.jpg

well taking a picture back then was a big deal but I'm sure the Fujita
family could afford it so it is a shame we don't have a pic of them
together...

The Fujita Family house collapses or was damaged (after S.H. died) to
the point that his son+wife had to move... due to the major
earthquake...it is possible that the house may have even caught on
fire (Kanto(?) earthquake damage was magnified by major fires all over
the city) and perhaps photos or other personal items were lost :(

At 09:13 PM 5/4/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>
>>
>> Sorry. The .jpg part got moved to the next line.
>>
>> http://www.hakubaikou.com/contributors/pechan/shinsenkenshin
>> .jpg
>>
>Still won't work. Is this something you have to have a password or the like to enter? If so, I'm not registered with them and that's the problem.

HB's site does not allow direct linking to pictures. The best way to go is through http://www.hakubaikou.com/contributors/pechan/fanart.html

Or navigate from the top down, which is what HB prefers.

Regarding the fanfic similarities - at some point fanfics begin to pull from the same sources of information. Or one particular fanfic has such a tremendous weight or influence that subconsciously those ideas are incorporated into "fanon ." I think this is particularly problematic with fanfics that are written in this realm; where most of the authors are of a different culture and are reliant on websites and existing web-based knowledge. I'm sure if we were writing fanfics based in our own cultural sphere, the similarities would be less remarkable.

I've seen a lot of confluence in a particular sect of fanfics lately and it is a bit perturbing... however, similarities are bound to occur, and one can only hope that no direct lifting of text or plot ideas does . I have seen plagiarism at work however on ff.net and it has been blatant lifting of text. It's rather irritating, but as we have no legal rights to our own fanfiction anyways, the best one can do is report it or leave -- as Angrybee stated -- a comment.

The thing that bothers me more now is the overreliance on Internet research over other works. I've now discovered that a lot of pages are simply wrong in their translations or information. It's very irritating to have to try to explain to someone who never uses the library that the internet isn't always completely factual.

S

Well, we are trying our best :(
Many universities have an EAst Asian Studies Library or reading room
but ofcourse you have to read the language...this summer I will use
English language texts to complete a mission for SHQ.

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, sherlgirl wrote:
> The thing that bothers me more now is the overreliance on Internet
research over other works. I've now discovered that a lot of pages
are simply wrong in their translations or information. It's very
irritating to have to try to explain to someone who never uses the
library that the internet isn't always completely factual.
>
> S

An interesting phenomenon was creeping into the library's general meetings at the end of my career there --- the idea that information on websites (or even simply available electronically) was too often incorrect (therefore, everything was suspect) and information in books correct, so it was imperative that we take care of our print collections. There's a growing prejudice that print is more reliable than electronic. The reality is that information in books and print journals has always suffered from errors as well. As always, the most important thing is the source, regardless of format --- how much do you trust the source. Older books and articles suffer from being made obsolete by new information, better understanding of extant evidence (including better translations), and/or hindsight & loss of the prejudice that often comes from contemporaries. Newer publications suffer from the drop-off in strict editing and peer review routines that used to make scholarly publishing a
nightmare. Errors in print become replicated exponentially when they become part of websites, which reach a much larger audience and especially when website maintainers don't update as information is corrected. (It's really a shame, too, that websites aren't updated because it's *SO* much easier to correct a website page than a book/article once it's gone into print publication.)

I should probably have just kept my mouth shut, but as I suffer from the same prejudice (print over electronic), I felt obliged to point out what was pointed out to me by research professors and fellow librarians. Just because it comes from a book doesn't mean it's correct. :-D How frustrating...

phil

Tiffany <tnamwong@...> wrote:
Well, we are trying our best :(
Many universities have an EAst Asian Studies Library or reading room
but ofcourse you have to read the language...this summer I will use
English language texts to complete a mission for SHQ.

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, sherlgirl wrote:
> The thing that bothers me more now is the overreliance on Internet
research over other works. I've now discovered that a lot of pages
are simply wrong in their translations or information. It's very
irritating to have to try to explain to someone who never uses the
library that the internet isn't always completely factual.
>
> S



SHQ - Shinsengumi Headquarters
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/

Coming soon: SHQ - The Website
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/

SHQ Spy Office -- SHQ LiveJournal
http://wwww.livejournal.com/~shq_spy_office


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ_Spy_Division/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
SHQ_Spy_Division-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Definitely wasn't meant to be a criticism of the stuff you guys have put together.

I'm speaking more generally e.g., Japanese customs and the like. Or even stuff like the state of technology and medicine at the time period.

Incidentally, I'm done painting Saitou. I've made him older and scarier (I think)...
feel free to take and use on webpages. I've already sent it along to HB's site as well.

http://www.deviantart.com/view/6971770/

Still contemplating that Hijikata/Ayunee/Susume pic. But it also means going back and watching some of the saddest PMK episodes to get into the mood. T_T

S

>
>
>I should probably have just kept my mouth shut, but as I suffer from the same prejudice (print over electronic), I felt obliged to point out what was pointed out to me by research professors and fellow librarians. Just because it comes from a book doesn't mean it's correct. :-D How frustrating...
>

That's a good point -- but the "correctly attributed" internet information is still generally referencing print. Print's credibility lies in its permanence and verifiability. Most books out there are in the habit of referencing or get nailed by the critics and academics ^_^. The majority of websites do not reference, or point to links that may be broken. It's unfortunate that the conventional library scientists were not the first to jump onto the internet and help shape its direction. I bet we'd be a lot more organized today... :-(

In the medical field in particular, this is extremely troublesome. A lot of information exists out there to which there are no supportive claims. It's perturbing.

As for translations, some things from a few fan translations in the RK-verse have been quoted ad nauseum, but now that the Viz translations have come out, there are apparent differences. Of course, arguing that the Viz translation may be in fact better has no effect with some fans. The fans are still going to compare everything against the first translation.



S

Very, very true. Sometimes, you have to laugh at some printed publications.
It is very common in the area of studies related with the East.
Inaccurate translations are my daily bread, I deal with them over and over again. Most of the cases I've crossed has to do with a wrong historical/cultural perception and a lack of a complete cultural background of the field at hand. You wouldn't believe the things I've crossed, published by supposedly ' renowned experts' , I mean scholarly research that really leaves you wondering WTF?

The real problem lays in that the people who is more appropriate to translate or access the original sources don't care or gives a damn about the views of 'outsiders', so key sources are usually unavailable or wrongly translated, because the translator can be a wonderful expert in contemporary language, and lack the cultural and historical background to understand the text as a whole.

I, for one, make a difference in the electronic distribution between well known subjects, as Medicine, and the studies on the East, that relies on books that are only accessible to few ones who have the knowledge to read/interpret them. The contemporary values of the academics sometimes blur the real meaning of the passages quoted, and this, unfortunately is SURPRISINGLY common, as much as the scholarly support to these wrong interpretations.

In my case (professionally speaking), we are participating in a project where we have direct access to the original sources, with direct supervision of people trained in the traditional sciences, which allows us to correct the misinterpretations we can fall into. We use both ways, the printed and the electronic to distribute the works.

So, print to me doesn't equals with accuracy, especially in the area of Orient related studies.

----- Original Message -----
From: spiritus saitou
To: SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [SHQ_Spy_Division] Re: Random Bits.


An interesting phenomenon was creeping into the library's general meetings at the end of my career there --- the idea that information on websites (or even simply available electronically) was too often incorrect (therefore, everything was suspect) and information in books correct, so it was imperative that we take care of our print collections. There's a growing prejudice that print is more reliable than electronic. The reality is that information in books and print journals has always suffered from errors as well. As always, the most important thing is the source, regardless of format --- how much do you trust the source. Older books and articles suffer from being made obsolete by new information, better understanding of extant evidence (including better translations), and/or hindsight & loss of the prejudice that often comes from contemporaries. Newer publications suffer from the drop-off in strict editing and peer review routines that used to make
scholarly publishing a
nightmare. Errors in print become replicated exponentially when they become part of websites, which reach a much larger audience and especially when website maintainers don't update as information is corrected. (It's really a shame, too, that websites aren't updated because it's *SO* much easier to correct a website page than a book/article once it's gone into print publication.)

I should probably have just kept my mouth shut, but as I suffer from the same prejudice (print over electronic), I felt obliged to point out what was pointed out to me by research professors and fellow librarians. Just because it comes from a book doesn't mean it's correct. :-D How frustrating...

phil

Tiffany <tnamwong@...> wrote:
Well, we are trying our best :(
Many universities have an EAst Asian Studies Library or reading room
but ofcourse you have to read the language...this summer I will use
English language texts to complete a mission for SHQ.

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, sherlgirl wrote:
> The thing that bothers me more now is the overreliance on Internet
research over other works. I've now discovered that a lot of pages
are simply wrong in their translations or information. It's very
irritating to have to try to explain to someone who never uses the
library that the internet isn't always completely factual.
>
> S



SHQ - Shinsengumi Headquarters
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/

Coming soon: SHQ - The Website
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/

SHQ Spy Office -- SHQ LiveJournal
http://wwww.livejournal.com/~shq_spy_office


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ_Spy_Division/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
SHQ_Spy_Division-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



SHQ - Shinsengumi Headquarters
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ/

Coming soon: SHQ - The Website
http://www.shinsengumihq.com/

SHQ Spy Office -- SHQ LiveJournal
http://wwww.livejournal.com/~shq_spy_office


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SHQ_Spy_Division/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
SHQ_Spy_Division-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But you've gone and hurt my feelings...(sniff, sniff)
so now you must atone by drawing a young Saitou :p as a gift to your
community LOL

His eyes are BEAUTIFUL

I found a pic that you can use as a reference...the only thing is he
is looking down not straight ahead like your pic...but you can study
his chiseled jaw line from this pic
http://1happyturtle.com/makoto/SHyahooprof.jpg

--- In SHQ_Spy_Division@yahoogroups.com, sherlgirl wrote:
> Definitely wasn't meant to be a criticism of the stuff you guys have
put together.