Thank you, finally someone who understands. Look, if Nobunaga hadn't died, then he would have most likely--
I DONT KNOW! If anyone knew then they'd probably put down what it was, but the issue at hand is that we don't know, i doubt that he kept a journal, and if he did, none of us have it.
________________________________
From: Steven Matsheshu <
steven_matsheshu@...>
To:
samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, October 15, 2009 8:53:27 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Nobunaga-how successful was he?
Yes, exactly. Thus, why we have to measure him up to his life and not to the times and lives of those that came after him,etc.etc. You can always find someone to compare him to that makes him looks god-like.. and someone to compare him with to make him look worthless... . thus, for a true evaluation, you have to evaluate him based on his life and the -WORLD AS HE KNEW IT AT THAT SPECIFC TIME-
Once he have that, then you can evaluate him against himself.
O.k. : Now... devil's advocate here :
Human beings throughout most of known time have portrayed the relatively same mind-sets and habits... this being said, you have no choice but to compare those qualities cross-cultural and cross-time with other "successful" military commanders. Taking cultural, religion, and time into account.. there are some cross-cultural comparisions that are applicable.
End Point :
What were Oda's goals ? Did he achieve them ? Look at it from an Emic perspective. Do you believe HE would feel successful with his actions ? Did he meet HIS goals ?
Success is truly an opinion... everything done is undone by time and conditions.. . nothing ever lasts.... there are numerous flaws in everything.. . every victory has the seeds of decay within it... Success is just the beginning of downfall...
Thus, the measure of success if truly "in the eye of the beholder".
Do you think Oda was successful ?
I think so... it is 2009 and I'm spending my Thursday morning writing an email about him.... four hundred twenty something years later..... (427, right ?)
He may have died before his grand scheme was complete... but it was completed regardless. Japan became a single nation under one ruler.... it did happen. And it happen in accord with HIS intention and HIS "chain of actions"...
You may not want to credit him with the actual completion of the task... fair enough..
However, you cannot deny that HE lit the fire .... everything that came after was a direct result of his intial work.
Anyway... I'm stumbling into my own opinions now, so I will stop.
--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Leroy Eaton wrote:
From: Leroy Eaton
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Nobunaga-how successful was he?
To: samuraihistory@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 12:09 PM
Well, if he hadn't dies, then Hashiba wouldn't have come to power, and your probably right, he would have most likley expanded towards the west, perhaps would have tried to conquor China and, and the rest of Asia... id is all hypothetical though...
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Joseph
To: samuraihistory@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 4:20:13 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Nobunaga-how successful was he?
--- In samuraihistory@ yahoogroups. com, Steven Matsheshu wrote:
>
> Bornholt,
>
> You've probably alread heard this, but are you 100% sure than Akechi's move was a cheap shot for power? I was under the impression that this was only a theory, among many.
>
> Also, I am not sure you can truly determine the success of Nobunaga--- due to just that. We have no idea what programs he may have instituted once power was secured... I would argue that you CAN'T determine a success rate and based it on just that.
>
> Trying to argue theories against theories makes a weak report--- focus on the actual history and rate that.
>
> Trying to ask "How successful would he have been if he did not die" is like asking "What color is the lotus in the sky?"
>
> There is no lotus in the sky--- so there is no possible answer.
>
> How successful was Nobunaga ? That question ends when the ashes of Honnoji stop smoking... and nothing beyond that.
>
> Anything beyond that is pure waste-of-time speculation.
>
> It would be like asking
> "How successful would George Washington be if he was alive today?"
>
> or "How well would apples sell if they tasted more like oranges?"
>
> Its too "in-your-head" and not enough "actually happened" to write a paper on... which is why nobody evaluates Nobunaga beyond his death....
>
> None of us have any real idea of what would have happened if he had lived long enough to unify the country---- nobody.
>
> You could always argue that "based on his past actions"... but what if he suddenly had a "spiritual awakening" or a sudden change of ideology... such things have been known to happen.
>
> What if he had allowed MORE and MORE western expansion ? What Japan had not closed its doors... what if it had no outlawed christians ? What if Toyotomi's class-laws were never put into effect ?
>
> What if the numerous ronin uprisings never occured because the ronin were allowed to get work WITHOUT their previous master's permission.. etc.etc..
>
> What if ..what if.. what if...
>
> It goes on forever.
>
> My suggestion :
>
> Focus on evaluating Nobunaga's life instead of projecting beyond his death.
>
> You could evaluate the actual quality of his victories--- for example, he may have won numerous battles--- but at what cost... was the victory a good one, or a "pure freaking luck" victory ? Maybe he won some territory not because of HIS actions.. but because of the faults on the otherside (i.e. Takeda Clan)... so was he really that good ?
>
> How was his diplomacy ? Did he use spies or did he just wing it ? Etc.etc.etc.
>
> Then.. of course... you can always ask :
>
> "How was it that Nobunaga simply failed to see Akechi's intention ?"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Matthew Bornholt wrote:
>
>
> From: Matthew Bornholt
> Subject: [samuraihistory] Nobunaga-how successful was he?
> To: samuraihistory@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 11:56 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm doing some coursework which i'm basing in Sengoku period Japan on Oda Nobunaga. My current question is basically "How successful was Oda Nobunaga at reunifying Japan".
>
> Now the obvious answer and prossibly the right one is "very successful only "failed" because Nobunaga was overenthusiastic and Akechi made his famous cheap shot at power. However, this essay needs to be coached in terms historiographical arguement and complaining. That just leaves me with just Berry in english with her whole Hideyoshi-coaltion/ Federalism arguement.
>
> I would like to know if anyone can link me to other arguments that Nobunaga was not so sucessful or that his success lacked the depth or structures needed to forge a long-lasting reunification settlement of the kind the Tokugawa achieved; even if he had lived longer. I've been looking at the usual suspects Berry, Lamers, Cambridge History, etc. Recommendations or opinions of historians outside the English corpus of literature would be most appreciated.
>
> PS: are any of the samurai archives forum admins out there, erm...your site is not sending me the confirmation email so I can post there. Please help!
> -----------bye bye------
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