Parallels in US and Japanese history

I am often struck by a number of parallels between US and Japanese
history. For example, the role of the Meiji Restoration leaders seems
analogous to the founding fathers of the US. Toshimichi Okubo strikes
me as a Thomas Jefferson type of character. Saigo Takamori reminds me
of George Washington.

The analogies are not, of course, perfect. But they are strong enough
to be interesting. This evening I was comparing the Battle of
Sekigahara (East vs West) with the Battle of Gettysburg (North vs
South). These are the two key large domestic battles in both countries'
histories. I was surprised to learn how close the troop numbers were.
At Gettysburg, it was 93K (north) vs 71K (south). At Sekigahara, it was
88K (east) vs 81K (west). How coincidental that such analogous battles
had troop numbers that were so comparable!

I've always seen parallels between the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 and the US
Civil War, with Saigo Takamori playing the role of the Japanese Robert E.
Lee.

Both wars resulted in each country having a strong central government.

Bob Burke

In a message dated 4/17/09 9:55:04 PM, joemaps@... writes:

>
>
>
>
> I am often struck by a number of parallels between US and Japanese
> history. For example, the role of the Meiji Restoration leaders seems
> analogous to the founding fathers of the US. Toshimichi Okubo strikes
> me as a Thomas Jefferson type of character. Saigo Takamori reminds me
> of George Washington.
>
> The analogies are not, of course, perfect. But they are strong enough
> to be interesting. This evening I was comparing the Battle of
> Sekigahara (East vs West) with the Battle of Gettysburg (North vs
> South). These are the two key large domestic battles in both countries'
> histories. I was surprised to learn how close the troop numbers were.
> At Gettysburg, it was 93K (north) vs 71K (south). At Sekigahara, it was
> 88K (east) vs 81K (west). How coincidental that such analogous battles
> had troop numbers that were so comparable!
>
>
>
>

**************
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web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, exactly. I've thought of that parallel too. In particular, there
is a similar type of "lost cause" romanticism about the Confederate Army
and Saigo's army. Both Saigo and Lee revolted against the central
government, but both are now revered in prominent statues. Both of them
are thought of as having high moral character, worthy of emulation. And
both rebellions figure prominently in films and TV shows. The Boshin
War is like the War of Independence, and the Satsuma Rebellion is like
the Civil War. Saigo played both Washington and Lee, who were both from
Virginia.

Joe

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, burker1@... wrote:
>
> I've always seen parallels between the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 and
the US
> Civil War, with Saigo Takamori playing the role of the Japanese Robert
E.
> Lee.
>
> Both wars resulted in each country having a strong central government.
>
> Bob Burke
>
> In a message dated 4/17/09 9:55:04 PM, joemaps@... writes:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am often struck by a number of parallels between US and Japanese
> > history. For example, the role of the Meiji Restoration leaders
seems
> > analogous to the founding fathers of the US. Toshimichi Okubo
strikes
> > me as a Thomas Jefferson type of character. Saigo Takamori reminds
me
> > of George Washington.
> >
> > The analogies are not, of course, perfect. But they are strong
enough
> > to be interesting. This evening I was comparing the Battle of
> > Sekigahara (East vs West) with the Battle of Gettysburg (North vs
> > South). These are the two key large domestic battles in both
countries'
> > histories. I was surprised to learn how close the troop numbers
were.
> > At Gettysburg, it was 93K (north) vs 71K (south). At Sekigahara, it
was
> > 88K (east) vs 81K (west). How coincidental that such analogous
battles
> > had troop numbers that were so comparable!
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> **************
> Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
> web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
>
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003\
)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joe,

I'm glad to see that someone else besides me has noticed the
similarities.

Taking it one step further, Saigo was commander of Imperial
Japaneses armed forces at one time; Lincoln offered the command of the Union armed
forces to Lee (who turned it down).

I don't think Lee really wanted to rebel against the US, he just
couldn't draw his sword against his native Virginia. Similarly, I never got the
impression that Saigo wanted to rebel against the Imperial Government that
he had helped install, but his sense of honor would not let him abandon his
followers.

Lastly, Satsuma is one of the most "southern" provinces in Japan!

Bob Burke


In a message dated 4/18/09 1:59:53 PM, joemaps@... writes:

>
>
>
>
> Yes, exactly. I've thought of that parallel too. In particular, there
> is a similar type of "lost cause" romanticism about the Confederate Army
> and Saigo's army. Both Saigo and Lee revolted against the central
> government, but both are now revered in prominent statues. Both of them
> are thought of as having high moral character, worthy of emulation. And
> both rebellions figure prominently in films and TV shows. The Boshin
> War is like the War of Independence, and the Satsuma Rebellion is like
> the Civil War. Saigo played both Washington and Lee, who were both from
> Virginia.
>
> Joe
>
> --- In samuraihistory@samuraihistosam, burker1@... wrote:
> >
> > I've always seen parallels between the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 and
> the US
> > Civil War, with Saigo Takamori playing the role of the Japanese Robert
> E.
> > Lee.
> >
> > Both wars resulted in each country having a strong central government.
> >
> > Bob Burke
> >
> > In a message dated 4/17/09 9:55:04 PM, joemaps@... writes:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am often struck by a number of parallels between US and Japanese
> > > history. For example, the role of the Meiji Restoration leaders
> seems
> > > analogous to the founding fathers of the US. Toshimichi Okubo
> strikes
> > > me as a Thomas Jefferson type of character. Saigo Takamori reminds
> me
> > > of George Washington.
> > >
> > > The analogies are not, of course, perfect. But they are strong
> enough
> > > to be interesting. This evening I was comparing the Battle of
> > > Sekigahara (East vs West) with the Battle of Gettysburg (North vs
> > > South). These are the two key large domestic battles in both
> countries'
> > > histories. I was surprised to learn how close the troop numbers
> were.
> > > At Gettysburg, it was 93K (north) vs 71K (south). At Sekigahara, it
> was
> > > 88K (east) vs 81K (west). How coincidental that such analogous
> battles
> > > had troop numbers that were so comparable!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ************ *
> > Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
> > web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
> >
> (http://toolbar.http://toolbar.http://toohttp://toohttp://toolbar.http:
> )
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>

**************
Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,

Regarding the similarity between Saigo and Robert Lee, please let me know the following thing if you have any idea .

As to Saigo, he was dead through the war against New Government , Meiji Government , even he was the main guy to have established that government as a result that he formed very strong enough military power to upset old Edo govenment , Bakufu. That war was named as Seinan Senso. The reason of cause of that war was attributed to the difference of thought of between Saigo and the leaders of Meiji Government.
One was that Saigo proposed to send himself to Korea to negotiate with the government of Korea at that time to open her in order her to contact with foreign countries instead closing , but Meiji government refuged his proposal. Second was that Saigo hoped to revolute Meiji government another time and creat new government formed by just regular civilians like France's revolution instead by ex-buke , Bushi in Meiji Government.

How was Robert Lee ? Did he die because of war against government of U.S. at that time ? or what? How did he die ?

Saigo was not the type of just guy of military, but rather a polititian.

Eddie Hiramoto

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, burker1@... wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> I'm glad to see that someone else besides me has noticed the
> similarities.
>
> Taking it one step further, Saigo was commander of Imperial
> Japaneses armed forces at one time; Lincoln offered the command of the Union armed
> forces to Lee (who turned it down).
>
> I don't think Lee really wanted to rebel against the US, he just
> couldn't draw his sword against his native Virginia. Similarly, I never got the
> impression that Saigo wanted to rebel against the Imperial Government that
> he had helped install, but his sense of honor would not let him abandon his
> followers.
>
> Lastly, Satsuma is one of the most "southern" provinces in Japan!
>
> Bob Burke
>
>
> In a message dated 4/18/09 1:59:53 PM, joemaps@... writes:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, exactly. I've thought of that parallel too. In particular, there
> > is a similar type of "lost cause" romanticism about the Confederate Army
> > and Saigo's army. Both Saigo and Lee revolted against the central
> > government, but both are now revered in prominent statues. Both of them
> > are thought of as having high moral character, worthy of emulation. And
> > both rebellions figure prominently in films and TV shows. The Boshin
> > War is like the War of Independence, and the Satsuma Rebellion is like
> > the Civil War. Saigo played both Washington and Lee, who were both from
> > Virginia.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@samuraihistosam, burker1@ wrote:
> > >
> > > I've always seen parallels between the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 and
> > the US
> > > Civil War, with Saigo Takamori playing the role of the Japanese Robert
> > E.
> > > Lee.
> > >
> > > Both wars resulted in each country having a strong central government.
> > >
> > > Bob Burke
> > >
> > > In a message dated 4/17/09 9:55:04 PM, joemaps@ writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am often struck by a number of parallels between US and Japanese
> > > > history. For example, the role of the Meiji Restoration leaders
> > seems
> > > > analogous to the founding fathers of the US. Toshimichi Okubo
> > strikes
> > > > me as a Thomas Jefferson type of character. Saigo Takamori reminds
> > me
> > > > of George Washington.
> > > >
> > > > The analogies are not, of course, perfect. But they are strong
> > enough
> > > > to be interesting. This evening I was comparing the Battle of
> > > > Sekigahara (East vs West) with the Battle of Gettysburg (North vs
> > > > South). These are the two key large domestic battles in both
> > countries'
> > > > histories. I was surprised to learn how close the troop numbers
> > were.
> > > > At Gettysburg, it was 93K (north) vs 71K (south). At Sekigahara, it
> > was
> > > > 88K (east) vs 81K (west). How coincidental that such analogous
> > battles
> > > > had troop numbers that were so comparable!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ************ *
> > > Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
> > > web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
> > >
> > (http://toolbar.http://toolbar.http://toohttp://toohttp://toolbar.http:
> > )
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> **************
> Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
> web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
> (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Eddie,
 
I feel that that is generally correct in terms of Saigo, but the parallels being discussed are in individuals' motivations and similarities in situations rather than great trends in the flow of nation-states' histories; Saigo was looking to modernize Japan in a way which his Meijijidai compatriots in government couldn't accept. General Lee was a soldier loyal to his home state, not to any profound concept of where the Union should be directed towards.
 
MLorimer

--- On Tue, 28/4/09, yoshiyuki hiramoto wrote:

From: yoshiyuki hiramoto
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 28 April, 2009, 3:38 AM








Hi All,

Regarding the similarity between Saigo and Robert Lee, please let me know the following thing if you have any idea .

As to Saigo, he was dead through the war against New Government , Meiji Government , even he was the main guy to have established that government as a result that he formed very strong enough military power to upset old Edo govenment , Bakufu. That war was named as Seinan Senso. The reason of cause of that war was attributed to the difference of thought of between Saigo and the leaders of Meiji Government.
One was that Saigo proposed to send himself to Korea to negotiate with the government of Korea at that time to open her in order her to contact with foreign countries instead closing , but Meiji government refuged his proposal. Second was that Saigo hoped to revolute Meiji government another time and creat new government formed by just regular civilians like France's revolution instead by ex-buke , Bushi in Meiji Government.

How was Robert Lee ? Did he die because of war against government of U.S. at that time ? or what? How did he die ?

Saigo was not the type of just guy of military, but rather a polititian.

Eddie Hiramoto

--- In samuraihistory@ yahoogroups. com, burker1@... wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> I'm glad to see that someone else besides me has noticed the
> similarities.
>
> Taking it one step further, Saigo was commander of Imperial
> Japaneses armed forces at one time; Lincoln offered the command of the Union armed
> forces to Lee (who turned it down).
>
> I don't think Lee really wanted to rebel against the US, he just
> couldn't draw his sword against his native Virginia. Similarly, I never got the
> impression that Saigo wanted to rebel against the Imperial Government that
> he had helped install, but his sense of honor would not let him abandon his
> followers.
>
> Lastly, Satsuma is one of the most "southern" provinces in Japan!
>
> Bob Burke
>
>
> In a message dated 4/18/09 1:59:53 PM, joemaps@... writes:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, exactly. I've thought of that parallel too. In particular, there
> > is a similar type of "lost cause" romanticism about the Confederate Army
> > and Saigo's army. Both Saigo and Lee revolted against the central
> > government, but both are now revered in prominent statues. Both of them
> > are thought of as having high moral character, worthy of emulation. And
> > both rebellions figure prominently in films and TV shows. The Boshin
> > War is like the War of Independence, and the Satsuma Rebellion is like
> > the Civil War. Saigo played both Washington and Lee, who were both from
> > Virginia.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@ samuraihistosam, burker1@ wrote:
> > >
> > > I've always seen parallels between the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877 and
> > the US
> > > Civil War, with Saigo Takamori playing the role of the Japanese Robert
> > E.
> > > Lee.
> > >
> > > Both wars resulted in each country having a strong central government.
> > >
> > > Bob Burke
> > >
> > > In a message dated 4/17/09 9:55:04 PM, joemaps@ writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am often struck by a number of parallels between US and Japanese
> > > > history. For example, the role of the Meiji Restoration leaders
> > seems
> > > > analogous to the founding fathers of the US. Toshimichi Okubo
> > strikes
> > > > me as a Thomas Jefferson type of character. Saigo Takamori reminds
> > me
> > > > of George Washington.
> > > >
> > > > The analogies are not, of course, perfect. But they are strong
> > enough
> > > > to be interesting. This evening I was comparing the Battle of
> > > > Sekigahara (East vs West) with the Battle of Gettysburg (North vs
> > > > South). These are the two key large domestic battles in both
> > countries'
> > > > histories. I was surprised to learn how close the troop numbers
> > were.
> > > > At Gettysburg, it was 93K (north) vs 71K (south). At Sekigahara, it
> > was
> > > > 88K (east) vs 81K (west). How coincidental that such analogous
> > battles
> > > > had troop numbers that were so comparable!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ************ *
> > > Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
> > > web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
> > >
> > (http://toolbar. http://toolbar. http://toohttp: //toohttp: //toolbar. http:
> > )
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ************ **
> Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
> web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
> (http://toolbar. aol.com/aolradio /download. html?ncid= emlcntusdown0000 0003)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gentleman,



I have been reading the discussions with a keen interest. I believe I have mentioned before of my PHd thesis which is a comparison of the warriors of the Illiad and the Samurai of the 16th century (with interjections with the Viking's as I am currently living in Norway).



The point I wish to make is this. One can establish links fairly easily from most cultures, wars, leader, religions, e.g the above, if one wishes to find them, but I think it's a little redundant merely to say and think that. For example, I began my thesis with a crique of Karl Marx. In his Grundrisse, he askes would Achilles be possible with powder and lead? Part of my thesis lies in me comparing the warriors of the Illiad and those of the Samurai to argue yes, an 'Achilles' type of hero was indeed possible in the age of guns: e.g the Battle of Nagashino in 1575, or the Satuma rebellion which is the event, and its leader of the discussion, also, I think its interesting to note, that Marx died five years after the Satsume rebellion, an interesting illustration to demonstrate that Western thinking rarely glanced Easrwards to the Japans (though Nietzsche does say he would move there if he had the capital). But merely to say that the Greek warriors and Samurai warriors are similar is not very groundbreaking.



What I am suggesting is that while it is interesting merely to look and compare cultures, Japan of this period and the American Civil War are too areas of deep historical interest too me, we should be looking at what we can learn from such comparisons.



What does it tell us?

How does a comparison help our understanding?



What makes a man challenge the governement?

What makes a man lead a rebellion killing his own people?

Look at the power of the ideologies, are there common ideas, what does this tell us about these men?

Look at the literature is closer detail, history is written by the victor, and both Lee and Saigo were heroic losers.



A book by Cliford Geertz, 'The Interpretation of Cultures' from the 70's may prove interesting to the some members.



Just a few ideas...



Tom Dowling, BA; MA (Hons)

tle





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One sad similarity between US and Japanese history is the displacement and attempted genocide of the native people by the "new government". I am of course drawing a parallel between the policies and actions of the European settlers/US government towards Native Americans and the Emishi/Ainu/etc....

Not just in the land-grabbing and killing--- but we also saw many Emishi come to work for the new Emperor(s) --- just like some natives allied with the new US.

We also see that the tactics brought in from the old country (Europe for US, China for Japan) were no match against the guerilla tactics of the natives---and newer devices and strategies had to be made to fight them.

Also--the idea that many Ainu hid their ethnic origins to avoid problems reminds me of many native families (that can) hiding their origins to avoid problems.

As far as I know though...there are not any "Japanese reservations".. but both groups still fight over "indigenous rights"...

Etc.etc....

However, I would say this pattern is common anytime a foreign invader comes in and "colonizes" an area..

But, still.. I would say that is applies.

Thoughts?

And another parallel: In the late 19th century, two different "emancipation proclamations" were made. In the U.S., this was Lincoln's proclamation to free African-American slaves. In Japan, it was the Meiji government's proclamation to end the feudal outcaste catagories of "eta" (extreme filth) and "hinin" (non-human). In both cases, there was resistance by people against these groups (freed slaves in the U.S. and "new commoners" in Japan) that wound up in attacks and lynchings as well as continued segregation and discrimination.

Hmmm, maybe we're not so different after all.

Nina

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Matsheshu <steven_matsheshu@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:28 am
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history










One sad similarity between US and Japanese history is the displacement and attempted genocide of the native people by the "new government". I am of course drawing a parallel between the policies and actions of the European settlers/US government towards Native Americans and the Emishi/Ainu/etc....

Not just in the land-grabbing and killing--- but we also saw many Emishi come to work for the new Emperor(s) --- just like some natives allied with the new US.

We also see that the tactics brought in from the old country (Europe for US, China for Japan) were no match against the guerilla tactics of the natives---and newer devices and strategies had to be made to fight them.

Also--the idea that many Ainu hid their ethnic origins to avoid problems reminds me of many native families (that can) hiding their origins to avoid problems.

As far as I know though...there are not any "Japanese reservations".. but both groups still fight over "indigenous rights"...

Etc.etc....

However, I would say this pattern is common anytime a foreign invader comes in and "colonizes" an area..

But, still.. I would say that is applies.

Thoughts?








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As far as slaves are concerned, this is the parallel not only in US and Japanese history, but in world wide of human history since ancient world.

Until Humans invented so called civilizational tools, or rice crop, they used to live under helping each other concept and equally.

Since then, they formed strong powered people vs weak people gradually, resulting in coming out slaves from weak people.

Even now, the rich people and poor people exist in world wide. The gap between rich and poor has never been narrowed since occured in world wide.
This is the real cause of Terrorism by poorer side against richer side.

Now , the fellow friends of this community must ask what you can do how to settling out this terrorism problem.

Eddie Hiramoto

nohit@... wrote:


And another parallel: In the late 19th century, two different "emancipation proclamations" were made. In the U.S., this was Lincoln's proclamation to free African-American slaves. In Japan, it was the Meiji government's proclamation to end the feudal outcaste catagories of "eta" (extreme filth)
and "hinin" (non-human). In both cases, there was resistance by people against these groups (freed slaves in the U.S. and "new commoners" in Japan) that wound up in attacks and lynchings as well as continued segregation and discrimination.

Hmmm, maybe we're not so different after all.

Nina

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Matsheshu <steven_matsheshu@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:28 am
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history

One sad similarity between US and Japanese history is the displacement and attempted genocide of the native people by the "new government". I am of course drawing a parallel between the policies and actions of the European settlers/US government towards Native Americans and the Emishi/Ainu/etc....

Not just in the land-grabbing and killing--- but we also saw many Emishi come to work for the new Emperor(s) --- just like some natives allied with the new US.

We also see that the tactics brought in from the old country (Europe for US, China for Japan) were no match against the guerilla tactics of the natives---and newer devices and strategies had to be made to fight them.

Also--the idea that many Ainu hid their ethnic origins to avoid problems reminds me of many native families (that can) hiding their origins to avoid problems.

As far as I know though...there are not any "Japanese reservations".. but both groups still fight over "indigenous rights"...

Etc.etc....

However, I would say this pattern is common anytime a foreign invader comes in and "colonizes" an area..

But, still.. I would say that is applies.

Thoughts?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Since there are no written records that predate the "so called
civilizational tools", I would like to know what you based your conclusion on regarding
how humans once lived in equality and helping each other?

Bob Burke


In a message dated 5/1/09 8:59:25 PM, eddiehiramoto@... writes:

>
>
>
> As far as slaves are concerned, this is the parallel not only in US and
> Japanese history, but in world wide of human history since ancient world.
>
> Until Humans invented so called civilizational tools, or rice crop, they
> used to live under helping each other concept and equally.
>
> Since then, they formed strong powered people vs weak people gradually,
> resulting in coming out slaves from weak people.
>
> Even now, the rich people and poor people exist in world wide. The gap
> between rich and poor has never been narrowed since occured in world wide.
> This is the real cause of Terrorism by poorer side against richer side.
>
> Now , the fellow friends of this community must ask what you can do how to
> settling out this terrorism problem.
>
> Eddie Hiramoto
>
> nohit@... wrote:
>
>
> And another parallel: In the late 19th century, two different
> "emancipation proclamations" were made. In the U.S., this was Lincoln's proclamation to
> free African-American slaves. In Japan, it was the Meiji government's
> proclamation to end the feudal outcaste catagories of "eta" (extreme filth)
> and "hinin" (non-human). In both cases, there was resistance by people
> against these groups (freed slaves in the U.S. and "new commoners" in Japan)
> that wound up in attacks and lynchings as well as continued segregation and
> discrimination.
>
> Hmmm, maybe we're not so different after all.
>
> Nina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Matsheshu
> To: samuraihistory@samuraihistosam
> Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:28 am
> Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
>
> One sad similarity between US and Japanese history is the displacement and
> attempted genocide of the native people by the "new government". I am of
> course drawing a parallel between the policies and actions of the European
> settlers/US government towards Native Americans and the Emishi/Ainu/ One sa
>
> Not just in the land-grabbing and killing--- but we also saw many Emishi
> come to work for the new Emperor(s) --- just like some natives allied with
> the new US.
>
> We also see that the tactics brought in from the old country (Europe for
> US, China for Japan) were no match against the guerilla tactics of the
> natives---and newer devices and strategies had to be made to fight them.
>
> Also--the idea that many Ainu hid their ethnic origins to avoid problems
> reminds me of many native families (that can) hiding their origins to avoid
> problems.
>
> As far as I know though...there are not any "Japanese reservations" As far
> as I know though...there are not any "Japanese res
>
> Etc.etc....
>
> However, I would say this pattern is common anytime a foreign invader
> comes in and "colonizes" an area..
>
> But, still.. I would say that is applies.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------ -------- -------- --
> Power up the Internet with Yahoo! Toolbar.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

**************
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3Bk)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think he means small, hunter-gatherer communities. However, as you perhaps rightly point out, evidence on equality is non-existent and indeed highly unlikely as most anthropologists agree that even as this early juncture in societal evolution there were clear role differences based upon gender. 
I feel much of the basic beliefs about a kind of utopian hunter-gatherer community is simply a mirror on the clearer evidence for social stratification which occurred in sedentary, dare I say 'civilized', lifestyles.
 
MLorimer

--- On Sat, 2/5/09, burker1@... <burker1@...> wrote:

From: burker1@... <burker1@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 2 May, 2009, 5:43 AM








Since there are no written records that predate the "so called
civilizational tools", I would like to know what you based your conclusion on regarding
how humans once lived in equality and helping each other?

Bob Burke

In a message dated 5/1/09 8:59:25 PM, eddiehiramoto@ yahoo.co. jp writes:

>
>
>
> As far as slaves are concerned, this is the parallel not only in US and
> Japanese history, but in world wide of human history since ancient world.
>
> Until Humans invented so called civilizational tools, or rice crop, they
> used to live under helping each other concept and equally.
>
> Since then, they formed strong powered people vs weak people gradually,
> resulting in coming out slaves from weak people.
>
> Even now, the rich people and poor people exist in world wide. The gap
> between rich and poor has never been narrowed since occured in world wide.
> This is the real cause of Terrorism by poorer side against richer side.
>
> Now , the fellow friends of this community must ask what you can do how to
> settling out this terrorism problem.
>
> Eddie Hiramoto
>
> nohit@... wrote:
>
>
> And another parallel: In the late 19th century, two different
> "emancipation proclamations" were made. In the U.S., this was Lincoln's proclamation to
> free African-American slaves. In Japan, it was the Meiji government's
> proclamation to end the feudal outcaste catagories of "eta" (extreme filth)
> and "hinin" (non-human). In both cases, there was resistance by people
> against these groups (freed slaves in the U.S. and "new commoners" in Japan)
> that wound up in attacks and lynchings as well as continued segregation and
> discrimination.
>
> Hmmm, maybe we're not so different after all.
>
> Nina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Matsheshu
> To: samuraihistory@ samuraihistosam
> Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:28 am
> Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
>
> One sad similarity between US and Japanese history is the displacement and
> attempted genocide of the native people by the "new government". I am of
> course drawing a parallel between the policies and actions of the European
> settlers/US government towards Native Americans and the Emishi/Ainu/ One sa
>
> Not just in the land-grabbing and killing--- but we also saw many Emishi
> come to work for the new Emperor(s) --- just like some natives allied with
> the new US.
>
> We also see that the tactics brought in from the old country (Europe for
> US, China for Japan) were no match against the guerilla tactics of the
> natives---and newer devices and strategies had to be made to fight them.
>
> Also--the idea that many Ainu hid their ethnic origins to avoid problems
> reminds me of many native families (that can) hiding their origins to avoid
> problems.
>
> As far as I know though...there are not any "Japanese reservations" As far
> as I know though...there are not any "Japanese res
>
> Etc.etc....
>
> However, I would say this pattern is common anytime a foreign invader
> comes in and "colonizes" an area..
>
> But, still.. I would say that is applies.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------ -------- -------- --
> Power up the Internet with Yahoo! Toolbar.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

************ **
Eat Great & Lose Weight FASTER! Start the South Beach Diet
Online - FREE Profile!
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3Bk)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eddie,



This is an over simplified explaination to a complex problem. I refer the members to Karl Marx, Communist Manifesto; Kieth Hopkins, Conquer's and slaves; and Fredich Nietzche, On Competivism and Aggression for general reading.



Slaves did not simply become so because they were weak. Some were brought, traded, became indebted to the state, and yes trophies of war. The earliest slaves I can think of is the enslavement of Messina by the Sparta in 8th century BC, but Homer talks about slaves in the Illiad which could be talking about the 1300's bc. And slaves were not always barbarians. The Greek slaves of the Ancient world were often tutors, doctors and specialists.


Aslo, rice an asian suppliment, not a European. The first settled people were in what was know as the Fertile Cresent, subsisting on Emmer and Eincorn.



Terrorism: the clue is in the title. One doesnt have to be rich or poor. The idea is too terrorise the enemy. I refer you to the pirates attack on Rome in 70's bc; the Spanish during the Napoleonic war, the Vietcong, and more recently the terrorists in Iraq, Afganistan and Pakistan.



T.D


To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
From: eddiehiramoto@...
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 23:18:35 +0900
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history







As far as slaves are concerned, this is the parallel not only in US and Japanese history, but in world wide of human history since ancient world.

Until Humans invented so called civilizational tools, or rice crop, they used to live under helping each other concept and equally.

Since then, they formed strong powered people vs weak people gradually, resulting in coming out slaves from weak people.

Even now, the rich people and poor people exist in world wide. The gap between rich and poor has never been narrowed since occured in world wide.
This is the real cause of Terrorism by poorer side against richer side.

Now , the fellow friends of this community must ask what you can do how to settling out this terrorism problem.

Eddie Hiramoto

nohit@... wrote:


And another parallel: In the late 19th century, two different "emancipation proclamations" were made. In the U.S., this was Lincoln's proclamation to free African-American slaves. In Japan, it was the Meiji government's proclamation to end the feudal outcaste catagories of "eta" (extreme filth)
and "hinin" (non-human). In both cases, there was resistance by people against these groups (freed slaves in the U.S. and "new commoners" in Japan) that wound up in attacks and lynchings as well as continued segregation and discrimination.

Hmmm, maybe we're not so different after all.

Nina

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Matsheshu <steven_matsheshu@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:28 am
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history

One sad similarity between US and Japanese history is the displacement and attempted genocide of the native people by the "new government". I am of course drawing a parallel between the policies and actions of the European settlers/US government towards Native Americans and the Emishi/Ainu/etc....

Not just in the land-grabbing and killing--- but we also saw many Emishi come to work for the new Emperor(s) --- just like some natives allied with the new US.

We also see that the tactics brought in from the old country (Europe for US, China for Japan) were no match against the guerilla tactics of the natives---and newer devices and strategies had to be made to fight them.

Also--the idea that many Ainu hid their ethnic origins to avoid problems reminds me of many native families (that can) hiding their origins to avoid problems.

As far as I know though...there are not any "Japanese reservations".. but both groups still fight over "indigenous rights"...

Etc.etc....

However, I would say this pattern is common anytime a foreign invader comes in and "colonizes" an area..

But, still.. I would say that is applies.

Thoughts?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chaps,



This is an interesting question. Earliest records are in the Akkiadian around 4000 bc. This was a time of turmoil and expansion for the sedentary cities of the region. There is no evidence as far as I am aware of humans helping one another, but the is nothing to the contrary. I refer you to a theory a few years ago which stipulated that the mongoloid race that came across the Bearing strait around 30,000 bc, may have exterminated the indigonius population around 12,000. the evidence for this is a pink layer (evidence of burning) and arrows heads and primitive weapons sealed within the layer.



T.D



To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
From: burker1@...
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 00:43:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history







Since there are no written records that predate the "so called
civilizational tools", I would like to know what you based your conclusion on regarding
how humans once lived in equality and helping each other?

Bob Burke

In a message dated 5/1/09 8:59:25 PM, eddiehiramoto@... writes:

>
>
>
> As far as slaves are concerned, this is the parallel not only in US and
> Japanese history, but in world wide of human history since ancient world.
>
> Until Humans invented so called civilizational tools, or rice crop, they
> used to live under helping each other concept and equally.
>
> Since then, they formed strong powered people vs weak people gradually,
> resulting in coming out slaves from weak people.
>
> Even now, the rich people and poor people exist in world wide. The gap
> between rich and poor has never been narrowed since occured in world wide.
> This is the real cause of Terrorism by poorer side against richer side.
>
> Now , the fellow friends of this community must ask what you can do how to
> settling out this terrorism problem.
>
> Eddie Hiramoto
>
> nohit@... wrote:
>
>
> And another parallel: In the late 19th century, two different
> "emancipation proclamations" were made. In the U.S., this was Lincoln's proclamation to
> free African-American slaves. In Japan, it was the Meiji government's
> proclamation to end the feudal outcaste catagories of "eta" (extreme filth)
> and "hinin" (non-human). In both cases, there was resistance by people
> against these groups (freed slaves in the U.S. and "new commoners" in Japan)
> that wound up in attacks and lynchings as well as continued segregation and
> discrimination.
>
> Hmmm, maybe we're not so different after all.
>
> Nina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Matsheshu
> To: samuraihistory@samuraihistosam
> Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:28 am
> Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
>
> One sad similarity between US and Japanese history is the displacement and
> attempted genocide of the native people by the "new government". I am of
> course drawing a parallel between the policies and actions of the European
> settlers/US government towards Native Americans and the Emishi/Ainu/ One sa
>
> Not just in the land-grabbing and killing--- but we also saw many Emishi
> come to work for the new Emperor(s) --- just like some natives allied with
> the new US.
>
> We also see that the tactics brought in from the old country (Europe for
> US, China for Japan) were no match against the guerilla tactics of the
> natives---and newer devices and strategies had to be made to fight them.
>
> Also--the idea that many Ainu hid their ethnic origins to avoid problems
> reminds me of many native families (that can) hiding their origins to avoid
> problems.
>
> As far as I know though...there are not any "Japanese reservations" As far
> as I know though...there are not any "Japanese res
>
> Etc.etc....
>
> However, I would say this pattern is common anytime a foreign invader
> comes in and "colonizes" an area..
>
> But, still.. I would say that is applies.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------ -------- -------- --
> Power up the Internet with Yahoo! Toolbar.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

**************
Eat Great & Lose Weight FASTER! Start the South Beach Diet
Online - FREE Profile!
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3Bk)

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The hunter/gatherer groups did help out each other. However just like in the Middle East today, the people who accumulated vast amounts of land, livestock, slaves etc... Were in a higher status and thus this still continues today among the bedowens (I know I misspelled it) and people in China. The more you have thr richer you are.

Travis Good
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...>

Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 09:31:21
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history


I think he means small, hunter-gatherer communities. However,�as you perhaps rightly point out, evidence on equality is non-existent and indeed highly unlikely as most anthropologists agree that even as this early juncture in societal evolution there were clear role differences based upon gender.�
I feel much of the basic beliefs about a kind of utopian hunter-gatherer community is simply a mirror on the clearer evidence for social stratification which occurred in sedentary, dare I say 'civilized', lifestyles.
�
MLorimer

--- On Sat, 2/5/09, burker1@... <burker1@...> wrote:

From: burker1@... <burker1@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 2 May, 2009, 5:43 AM








Since there are no written records that predate the "so called
civilizational tools", I would like to know what you based your conclusion on regarding
how humans once lived in equality and helping each other?

Bob Burke

In a message dated 5/1/09 8:59:25 PM, eddiehiramoto@ yahoo.co. jp writes:

>
>
>
> As far as slaves are concerned, this is the parallel not only in US and
> Japanese history, but in world wide of human history since ancient world.
>
> Until Humans invented so called civilizational tools, or rice crop, they
> used to live under helping each other concept and equally.
>
> Since then, they formed strong powered people vs weak people gradually,
> resulting in coming out slaves from weak people.
>
> Even now, the rich people and poor people exist in world wide. The gap
> between rich and poor has never been narrowed since occured in world wide.
> This is the real cause of Terrorism by poorer side against richer side.
>
> Now , the fellow friends of this community must ask what you can do how to
> settling out this terrorism problem.
>
> Eddie Hiramoto
>
> nohit@... wrote:
>
>
> And another parallel: In the late 19th century, two different
> "emancipation proclamations" were made. In the U.S., this was Lincoln's proclamation to
> free African-American slaves. In Japan, it was the Meiji government's
> proclamation to end the feudal outcaste catagories of "eta" (extreme filth)
> and "hinin" (non-human). In both cases, there was resistance by people
> against these groups (freed slaves in the U.S. and "new commoners" in Japan)
> that wound up in attacks and lynchings as well as continued segregation and
> discrimination.
>
> Hmmm, maybe we're not so different after all.
>
> Nina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Matsheshu
> To: samuraihistory@ samuraihistosam
> Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:28 am
> Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
>
> One sad similarity between US and Japanese history is the displacement and
> attempted genocide of the native people by the "new government". I am of
> course drawing a parallel between the policies and actions of the European
> settlers/US government towards Native Americans and the Emishi/Ainu/ One sa
>
> Not just in the land-grabbing and killing--- but we also saw many Emishi
> come to work for the new Emperor(s) --- just like some natives allied with
> the new US.
>
> We also see that the tactics brought in from the old country (Europe for
> US, China for Japan) were no match against the guerilla tactics of the
> natives---and newer devices and strategies had to be made to fight them.
>
> Also--the idea that many Ainu hid their ethnic origins to avoid problems
> reminds me of many native families (that can) hiding their origins to avoid
> problems.
>
> As far as I know though...there are not any "Japanese reservations" As far
> as I know though...there are not any "Japanese res
>
> Etc.etc....
>
> However, I would say this pattern is common anytime a foreign invader
> comes in and "colonizes" an area..
>
> But, still.. I would say that is applies.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------ -------- -------- --
> Power up the Internet with Yahoo! Toolbar.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

************ **
Eat Great & Lose Weight FASTER! Start the South Beach Diet
Online - FREE Profile!
(http://pr.atwola com/promoclk/ 100126575x122182 2996x1201398599/ aol?redir= http:%2F% 2Fad.doubleclick .net%2Fclk% 3B213623126% 3B35100424%
3Bk)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,

I think the most important thing in this issue is how to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor, because that is main cause of turmoil, problem, terrorism, war . Any body would be welcomed to propose good idea.

Eddie Hiramoto

Tom Dowling wrote:

Chaps,



This is an interesting question. Earliest records are in the Akkiadian around 4000 bc. This was a time of turmoil and expansion for the sedentary cities of the region. There is no evidence as far as I am aware of humans helping one another, but the is nothing to the contrary. I refer you to a
theory a few years ago which stipulated that the mongoloid race that came across the Bearing strait around 30,000 bc, may have exterminated the indigonius population around 12,000. the evidence for this is a pink layer (evidence of burning) and arrows heads and primitive weapons sealed within the
layer.



T.D



To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
From: burker1@...
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 00:43:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history







Since there are no written records that predate the "so called
civilizational tools", I would like to know what you based your conclusion on regarding
how humans once lived in equality and helping each other?

Bob Burke

In a message dated 5/1/09 8:59:25 PM, eddiehiramoto@... writes:

>
>
>
> As far as slaves are concerned, this is the parallel not only in US and
> Japanese history, but in world wide of human history since ancient world.
>
> Until Humans invented so called civilizational tools, or rice crop, they
> used to live under helping each other concept and equally.
>
> Since then, they formed strong powered people vs weak people gradually,
> resulting in coming out slaves from weak people.
>
> Even now, the rich people and poor people exist in world wide. The gap
> between rich and poor has never been narrowed since occured in world wide.
> This is the real cause of Terrorism by poorer side against richer side.
>
> Now , the fellow friends of this community must ask what you can do how to
> settling out this terrorism problem.
>
> Eddie Hiramoto
>
> nohit@... wrote:
>
>
> And another parallel: In the late 19th century, two different
> "emancipation proclamations" were made. In the U.S., this was Lincoln's proclamation to
> free African-American slaves. In Japan, it was the Meiji government's
> proclamation to end the feudal outcaste catagories of "eta" (extreme filth)
> and "hinin" (non-human). In both cases, there was resistance by people
> against these groups (freed slaves in the U.S. and "new commoners" in Japan)
> that wound up in attacks and lynchings as well as continued segregation and
> discrimination.
>
> Hmmm, maybe we're not so different after all.
>
> Nina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Matsheshu
> To: samuraihistory@samuraihistosam
> Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:28 am
> Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
>
> One sad similarity between US and Japanese history is the displacement and
> attempted genocide of the native people by the "new government". I am of
> course drawing a parallel between the policies and actions of the European
> settlers/US government towards Native Americans and the Emishi/Ainu/ One sa
>
> Not just in the land-grabbing and killing--- but we also saw many Emishi
> come to work for the new Emperor(s) --- just like some natives allied with
> the new US.
>
> We also see that the tactics brought in from the old country (Europe for
> US, China for Japan) were no match against the guerilla tactics of the
> natives---and newer devices and strategies had to be made to fight them.
>
> Also--the idea that many Ainu hid their ethnic origins to avoid problems
> reminds me of many native families (that can) hiding their origins to avoid
> problems.
>
> As far as I know though...there are not any "Japanese reservations" As far
> as I know though...there are not any "Japanese res
>
> Etc.etc....
>
> However, I would say this pattern is common anytime a foreign invader
> comes in and "colonizes" an area..
>
> But, still.. I would say that is applies.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------ -------- -------- --
> Power up the Internet with Yahoo! Toolbar.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

**************
Eat Great & Lose Weight FASTER! Start the South Beach Diet
Online - FREE Profile!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221822996x1201398599/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B213623126%3B35100424%
3Bk)

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On May 2, 2009, at 12:43 AM, burker1@... wrote:

>
>
> Since there are no written records that predate the "so called
> civilizational tools", I would like to know what you based your
> conclusion on regarding
> how humans once lived in equality and helping each other?
>

Naive wishful thinking and a strong belief in "wishing makes it so."

On May 2, 2009, at 10:59 AM, <eddiehiramoto@...> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I think the most important thing in this issue is how to narrow the
> gap between the rich and the poor, because that is main cause of
> turmoil, problem, terrorism, war . Any body would be welcomed to
> propose good idea.
>

I have a couple of ideas.

(1) Stop top posting, and start clipping your messages when you post.

(2) What's say we stop posting our socio-political wishlists?



Tony

1. First time I read a SH group post in a year, and it'd devolved to Tony having to break up social utopian discussion? I guess I haven't missed much.

2. Forgive me for top posting, but what the hell is with the new formatting? I can't bottom post, it seems. The entire previous message (below) is inserted like a picture--I can't even go in and screw around with your words, Tony. Apparently Yahoo thinks your word is law. Yet I can't follow it.

Nate




________________________________
From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2009 3:02:09 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history

On May 2, 2009, at 10:59 AM, wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I think the most important thing in this issue is how to narrow the
> gap between the rich and the poor, because that is main cause of
> turmoil, problem, terrorism, war . Any body would be welcomed to
> propose good idea.
>

I have a couple of ideas.

(1) Stop top posting, and start clipping your messages when you post.

(2) What's say we stop posting our socio-political wishlists?

Tony







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I for one agree with Tony.  Afterall, is'nt it "Samurai History"?  Besides, if you want to talk about utopian ideals, go blog on a GOP or Democratic website or something; I think there is also a long article on Karl Marx at wikipedia if that is what rocks your boat.
 
On a subject that I have been curious about, and for the sake of creating a new topic, what was the reason for the Samurai armies to go from elite horse archers to being more infantry based?

--- On Sat, 5/2/09, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:


From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 6:02 PM









On May 2, 2009, at 10:59 AM, wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I think the most important thing in this issue is how to narrow the
> gap between the rich and the poor, because that is main cause of
> turmoil, problem, terrorism, war . Any body would be welcomed to
> propose good idea.
>

I have a couple of ideas.

(1) Stop top posting, and start clipping your messages when you post.

(2) What's say we stop posting our socio-political wishlists?

Tony



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Did it really happen like that?did they go to be more infantry based? I think maybe each clans have their own elite forces. Like the oda,they are well known for their ashigaru. But some others are known for their heavy cavalry like the naginata cavalry.. So maybe it depends on the battle situation they are facing at that moment.. But it just my thoughts..




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-original message-
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
Author: "Takezo Getsu" <getsutakezo@...>
Date: 05th May 2009 7:53 am

I for one agree with Tony.  Afterall, is'nt it "Samurai History"?  Besides, if you want to talk about utopian ideals, go blog on a GOP or Democratic website or something; I think there is also a long article on Karl Marx at wikipedia if that is what rocks your boat.
 
On a subject that I have been curious about, and for the sake of creating a new topic, what was the reason for the Samurai armies to go from elite horse archers to being more infantry based?

--- On Sat, 5/2/09, Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:


From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 6:02 PM









On May 2, 2009, at 10:59 AM, wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I think the most important thing in this issue is how to narrow the
> gap between the rich and the poor, because that is main cause of
> turmoil, problem, terrorism, war . Any body would be welcomed to
> propose good idea.
>

I have a couple of ideas.

(1) Stop top posting, and start clipping your messages when you post.

(2) What's say we stop posting our socio-political wishlists?

Tony



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I realize that the Takeda were renowned (under Shingen) for their Kiba Gundan, but which clan(s) were "known for their heavy cavalry like the naginata cavalry"?
 
MLorimer

--- On Wed, 6/5/09, kojalMtirta@... <kojalMtirta@...> wrote:

From: kojalMtirta@... <kojalMtirta@...>
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
To: getsutakezo@..., samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 7:29 AM








Did it really happen like that?did they go to be more infantry based? I think maybe each clans have their own elite forces. Like the oda,they are well known for their ashigaru. But some others are known for their heavy cavalry like the naginata cavalry.. So maybe it depends on the battle situation they are facing at that moment.. But it just my thoughts..




------------ --------- --------- --------- --
Sent by emoze push mail


-original message-
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
Author: "Takezo Getsu"
Date: 05th May 2009 7:53 am

I for one agree with Tony.  Afterall, is'nt it "Samurai History"?  Besides, if you want to talk about utopian ideals, go blog on a GOP or Democratic website or something; I think there is also a long article on Karl Marx at wikipedia if that is what rocks your boat.
 
On a subject that I have been curious about, and for the sake of creating a new topic, what was the reason for the Samurai armies to go from elite horse archers to being more infantry based?

--- On Sat, 5/2/09, Anthony Bryant wrote:


From: Anthony Bryant
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Parallels in US and Japanese history
To: samuraihistory@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Saturday, May 2, 2009, 6:02 PM









On May 2, 2009, at 10:59 AM, wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I think the most important thing in this issue is how to narrow the
> gap between the rich and the poor, because that is main cause of
> turmoil, problem, terrorism, war . Any body would be welcomed to
> propose good idea.
>

I have a couple of ideas.

(1) Stop top posting, and start clipping your messages when you post.

(2) What's say we stop posting our socio-political wishlists?

Tony



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]