Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo

In Japan, Buke was born around 1,200 years ago.

After that, Buke had been growing and increasing power gradualy. Buke
did have stronger power than Emperor since Heisi ( Kiyomori Taira )
and followed by Genji ( Yoritomo ) , then Asikaga, warriors days to
Nobunaga, Hideyosi, and Yeyasu Tokugawa ( Shogun ) for over 260
years, ruining Japan . Even under Buke, Emperor has been still
aliving.

However, at the end of Tokugawa , Edo era, Buke had been vanished
completely and disappeared . Then, under new government , MEIJI,
Emperor returned and started to ruin Japan again .

Why did Buke vanish in Japanese history after 1,000 years since birth ?

Eddie,

You have shown yourself in the past as knowledgable. Are you trolling?

MJPeters



To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: eddiehiramoto@...: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 14:05:24 +0000Subject: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?



In Japan, Buke was born around 1,200 years ago. After that, Buke had been growing and increasing power gradualy. Buke did have stronger power than Emperor since Heisi ( Kiyomori Taira ) and followed by Genji ( Yoritomo ) , then Asikaga, warriors days to Nobunaga, Hideyosi, and Yeyasu Tokugawa ( Shogun ) for over 260 years, ruining Japan . Even under Buke, Emperor has been still aliving.However, at the end of Tokugawa , Edo era, Buke had been vanished completely and disappeared . Then, under new government , MEIJI, Emperor returned and started to ruin Japan again .Why did Buke vanish in Japanese history after 1,000 years since birth ?





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you mean rule etc...why vanishing?why roman legions vanish?why the zulus?why vikings?why knigihts? why longbows? cavalry?etc...look around...its not that difficult!anyway:you are right about something:as long as there are soldiers,there will be ruins...regards..Jore

To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: eddiehiramoto@...: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 14:05:24 +0000Subject: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?



In Japan, Buke was born around 1,200 years ago. After that, Buke had been growing and increasing power gradualy. Buke did have stronger power than Emperor since Heisi ( Kiyomori Taira ) and followed by Genji ( Yoritomo ) , then Asikaga, warriors days to Nobunaga, Hideyosi, and Yeyasu Tokugawa ( Shogun ) for over 260 years, ruining Japan . Even under Buke, Emperor has been still aliving.However, at the end of Tokugawa , Edo era, Buke had been vanished completely and disappeared . Then, under new government , MEIJI, Emperor returned and started to ruin Japan again .Why did Buke vanish in Japanese history after 1,000 years since birth ?





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On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:05 PM, yoshiyuki hiramoto
<eddiehiramoto@...> wrote:

> However, at the end of Tokugawa , Edo era, Buke had been vanished
> completely and disappeared . Then, under new government , MEIJI,
> Emperor returned and started to ruin Japan again .
>
> Why did Buke vanish in Japanese history after 1,000 years since birth ?

Do you mean 'ruin Japan' (i.e. Destroy Japan) or 'rule Japan'?

I think the reason that they 'vanished' is clear: The Meiji
government officially revoked the warrior class. As to *why* they did
it: The warrior class was seen by many as an old (thousand year)
institution that was preventing Japan from modernizing. Rightly or
wrongly they believed that to go forward, men should be treated based
on their merits, not their rank (I believe much of this comes from the
Choshu rebellion, as I recall there were quite a few peasants and
ronin involved in that particular struggle).

-Josh

Josh - I think he meant 'run'... ( the 'u' and 'i' keys are next to each other)

Barry Thomas

----- Original Message -----
From: JL Badgley
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?


On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:05 PM, yoshiyuki hiramoto
<eddiehiramoto@...> wrote:

> However, at the end of Tokugawa , Edo era, Buke had been vanished
> completely and disappeared . Then, under new government , MEIJI,
> Emperor returned and started to ruin Japan again .
>
> Why did Buke vanish in Japanese history after 1,000 years since birth ?

Do you mean 'ruin Japan' (i.e. Destroy Japan) or 'rule Japan'?
.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

! ruin ! is mis-spelling. Reign, or Rule is collect. Sorry about this.

You pointed out very reasoble things and comprehensive . I agree to that without no argument.
However, before Meiji new Government which you pointed out came out in Japan which , something had already been happened in Edo era society. Let me explain as follows;

Considering Buke days for about 1,200 years, the final stage for them was end of Edo era.

At the first stage when Yeyas Tokugawa, shogun, opened Government ( Bakufu ) through 200 years after that , which was 1860 AC , feudalism had been followed and Buke had been safety. After 200 years warriors days , all Japanese enjoyed peasful life for long times.

However, from the interim of Edo era onward already, the seed of problem to maintain Buke rank had been born, which was the reason , the cause of the change from feudalism to money oriented society, or commodity oriented society and which triggered the situation Buke rank was unable to
live without having put more heavier land tax to peasants . Furthermore, the export of textiles, or foods , etc from Japan to overseas had been increasing, which brought more demand for those things and the prices had hiked so much , triggering more poverty to Buke. And the peasants formed
their own army and raised riots in everywhere. Edo government tried to settle those riots, but they could not solved completely. On the contrary, the merchants had become richier and richier , getting more power.

Buke had been finally facing to the poverty and formed hostility groups against Edo Gernment because Edo Gernment could not help Buke.

At that time, some new thinkers came out who stressed liberalism and said Japan shoud be reigned by the capable man not only by Buke, no matter what ranks were, which tried to change from feudalism to new world implying new government under new power.. Under these circumstrances, new power
organised by Chosu and Satsuma, lower Buke rank , formed new government called Meiji .

Due to the influence by the change of economic matters such as feudalism economic to capitalism finally, Buke was forced to give up their rank and many buke families were forced to sell their lands or assets to rich merchants or, new Meiji Government and finally had becom peasants, or,
business man by investing money to company newly established under Meiji Government.

So , please remember the seed of problem to bring the change to new world was born already inside the current , old structure, long time before next new structure. Like cancer, the seed of cancer is born before come out to surface, visibility . Economic matters are the key factors to
change the structure.

Eddie

JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 9:05 PM, yoshiyuki hiramoto
<eddiehiramoto@...> wrote:

> However, at the end of Tokugawa , Edo era, Buke had been vanished
> completely and disappeared . Then, under new government , MEIJI,
> Emperor returned and started to ruin Japan again .
>
> Why did Buke vanish in Japanese history after 1,000 years since birth ?

Do you mean 'ruin Japan' (i.e. Destroy Japan) or 'rule Japan'?

I think the reason that they 'vanished' is clear: The Meiji
government officially revoked the warrior class. As to *why* they did
it: The warrior class was seen by many as an old (thousand year)
institution that was preventing Japan from modernizing. Rightly or
wrongly they believed that to go forward, men should be treated based
on their merits, not their rank (I believe much of this comes from the
Choshu rebellion, as I recall there were quite a few peasants and
ronin involved in that particular struggle).

-Josh






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Things tend not to vanish, rather evolve, or they are assimulated into something else. Roman Legions did not vanish: the quality of the army was diluted until the Western Empire fell to the barbarian tribes; the Vikings enjoyed much power until the black death arrived in Norway in 13th century, only for the few to survive to be conquered by Danes and Swedes. The class of "Knights" continued, but ceased to be a major force on the battlefield (perhaps think of the samurai after the Tokogawa shogunite). Longbows are weaponary, and would have become obsolete when there was something better, cheaper and easier to train mass infantry, i.e powder and lead to use Marx's terms. Same with cavalry. when armoured vehicles could be produced more reliably, quicker and cheaply, horses, cavalry ceased to be an important force on the battlefield. Just look at the first great war, most nations use cavalry (think of Lawerence of Arabia), but the second great war, scarcly a horse is photographed in the entire campaign. Soldiers and ruins? I think poor leadership leads to ruins - not soldiers per se.

Regards T. Dowling BA; MA (hons)



To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: tengu64@...: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 01:05:11 +0200Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?



you mean rule etc...why vanishing?why roman legions vanish?why the zulus?why vikings?why knigihts? why longbows? cavalry?etc...look around...its not that difficult!anyway:you are right about something:as long as there are soldiers,there will be ruins...regards..JoreTo: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: eddiehiramoto@...: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 14:05:24 +0000Subject: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?In Japan, Buke was born around 1,200 years ago. After that, Buke had been growing and increasing power gradualy. Buke did have stronger power than Emperor since Heisi ( Kiyomori Taira ) and followed by Genji ( Yoritomo ) , then Asikaga, warriors days to Nobunaga, Hideyosi, and Yeyasu Tokugawa ( Shogun ) for over 260 years, ruining Japan . Even under Buke, Emperor has been still aliving.However, at the end of Tokugawa , Edo era, Buke had been vanished completely and disappeared . Then, under new government , MEIJI, Emperor returned and started to ruin Japan again .Why did Buke vanish in Japanese history after 1,000 years since birth ? __________________________________________________________Ota nyt käyttöösi uuden sukupolven Windows Live palvelut!http://get.live.com[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Hi Tom, and All,

Your saying, evolve , or assimulated into something else, is right word , I agree.
( Even I used to live in US for 15years and have been involving the business with US over 30 years , using English, I can't use right English. Sorry about that.
However, thanks to you and other American friends in this community, I'm glad to learn and find more unknown word of English and increase the vocaburary.)

In fact, lastly, Buke, Samurai were forced to become Governer, Policeman, Farmer, Businessmen, Teacher, etc , due to the fact that New Meiji government formed and issued new constitution , resulted in non existence of occupation of Buke.

Before Meiji revolution , Buke was the top rank of class next to Emperor, then Farmers, Merchants, etc. However, after Meiji revolution, Buke class evolved to others like above mentioned.

Now, my next question is then , does Emperor exist from now on ?
After Buke took over the power of reign firstly about 1,200 years ago, Emperor continued to alive , exist without doing things but just doing the things related to religion in somewhere in Kyoto. And, after WW II, Emperor keep doing just smiling , eating with visiters from overseas
sometimes without the right to vote, because he was appointed as the symbol

In fact, Japanese needed something like symbol , mercy , for the time being after collapse by WW II , however, Japan recovered completely and now , most of Japanese don't need mercy, symbol any more. So, one day, there will be no reason to exist . Maybe, one day, they are foreced
to become just civilian and take some job to alive.

How do you think ?

Eddie

Tom Dowling wrote:

Things tend not to vanish, rather evolve, or they are assimulated into something else. Roman Legions did not vanish: the quality of the army was diluted until the Western Empire fell to the barbarian tribes; the Vikings enjoyed much power until the black death arrived in Norway in 13th century,
only for the few to survive to be conquered by Danes and Swedes. The class of "Knights" continued, but ceased to be a major force on the battlefield (perhaps think of the samurai after the Tokogawa shogunite). Longbows are weaponary, and would have become obsolete when there was something better,
cheaper and easier to train mass infantry, i.e powder and lead to use Marx's terms. Same with cavalry. when armoured vehicles could be produced more reliably, quicker and cheaply, horses, cavalry ceased to be an important force on the battlefield. Just look at the first great war, most nations
use cavalry (think of Lawerence of Arabia), but the second great war, scarcly a horse is photographed in the entire campaign. Soldiers and ruins? I think poor leadership leads to ruins - not soldiers per se.

Regards T. Dowling BA; MA (hons)

To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: tengu64@...: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 01:05:11 +0200Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?

you mean rule etc...why vanishing?why roman legions vanish?why the zulus?why vikings?why knigihts? why longbows? cavalry?etc...look around...its not that difficult!anyway:you are right about something:as long as there are soldiers,there will be ruins...regards..JoreTo:
samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: eddiehiramoto@...: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 14:05:24 +0000Subject: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?In Japan, Buke was born around 1,200 years ago. After that, Buke had been growing and increasing power
gradualy. Buke did have stronger power than Emperor since Heisi ( Kiyomori Taira ) and followed by Genji ( Yoritomo ) , then Asikaga, warriors days to Nobunaga, Hideyosi, and Yeyasu Tokugawa ( Shogun ) for over 260 years, ruining Japan . Even under Buke, Emperor has been still aliving.However, at
the end of Tokugawa , Edo era, Buke had been vanished completely and disappeared . Then, under new government , MEIJI, Emperor returned and started to ruin Japan again .Why did Buke vanish in Japanese history after 1,000 years since birth ?
__________________________________________________________Ota nyt k将」ytt将モ将モsi uuden sukupolven Windows Live palvelut!http://get.live.com[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Eddie,

Info assimulated! As to your supposition on the role of the emperor, perhaps the views pre-Tokogawa and a glimps into Roman history may provide illumination for you. Consider the opinion of the first Westerners in Japan: Zavier and his associates, traders etc. What was their perception of the emperor? They called him the "pope of Japan". The title suggested a man of respect, of holyiness and position, but someone who lacked real power, more influence perhaps. And a quick consideration of the later Roman Emperors: they too often were figure heads, and lacked quantifiable power. Looking in these area may help refine your questions and answers. Drop me an email if you want to bounce ideas off me. P.s, I'm an Englishman, not an American.

Tom Dowling



To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: eddiehiramoto@...: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:19:21 +0900Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?



Hi Tom, and All,Your saying, evolve , or assimulated into something else, is right word , I agree.( Even I used to live in US for 15years and have been involving the business with US over 30 years , using English, I can't use right English. Sorry about that.However, thanks to you and other American friends in this community, I'm glad to learn and find more unknown word of English and increase the vocaburary.)In fact, lastly, Buke, Samurai were forced to become Governer, Policeman, Farmer, Businessmen, Teacher, etc , due to the fact that New Meiji government formed and issued new constitution , resulted in non existence of occupation of Buke. Before Meiji revolution , Buke was the top rank of class next to Emperor, then Farmers, Merchants, etc. However, after Meiji revolution, Buke class evolved to others like above mentioned.Now, my next question is then , does Emperor exist from now on ?After Buke took over the power of reign firstly about 1,200 years ago, Emperor continued to alive , exist without doing things but just doing the things related to religion in somewhere in Kyoto. And, after WW II, Emperor keep doing just smiling , eating with visiters from overseassometimes without the right to vote, because he was appointed as the symbol In fact, Japanese needed something like symbol , mercy , for the time being after collapse by WW II , however, Japan recovered completely and now , most of Japanese don't need mercy, symbol any more. So, one day, there will be no reason to exist . Maybe, one day, they are forecedto become just civilian and take some job to alive.How do you think ?EddieTom Dowling wrote:Things tend not to vanish, rather evolve, or they are assimulated into something else. Roman Legions did not vanish: the quality of the army was diluted until the Western Empire fell to the barbarian tribes; the Vikings enjoyed much power until the black death arrived in Norway in 13th century,only for the few to survive to be conquered by Danes and Swedes. The class of "Knights" continued, but ceased to be a major force on the battlefield (perhaps think of the samurai after the Tokogawa shogunite). Longbows are weaponary, and would have become obsolete when there was something better,cheaper and easier to train mass infantry, i.e powder and lead to use Marx's terms. Same with cavalry. when armoured vehicles could be produced more reliably, quicker and cheaply, horses, cavalry ceased to be an important force on the battlefield. Just look at the first great war, most nationsuse cavalry (think of Lawerence of Arabia), but the second great war, scarcly a horse is photographed in the entire campaign. Soldiers and ruins? I think poor leadership leads to ruins - not soldiers per se.Regards T. Dowling BA; MA (hons)To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: tengu64@...: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 01:05:11 +0200Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?you mean rule etc...why vanishing?why roman legions vanish?why the zulus?why vikings?why knigihts? why longbows? cavalry?etc...look around...its not that difficult!anyway:you are right about something:as long as there are soldiers,there will be ruins...regards..JoreTo:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: eddiehiramoto@...: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 14:05:24 +0000Subject: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?In Japan, Buke was born around 1,200 years ago. After that, Buke had been growing and increasing powergradualy. Buke did have stronger power than Emperor since Heisi ( Kiyomori Taira ) and followed by Genji ( Yoritomo ) , then Asikaga, warriors days to Nobunaga, Hideyosi, and Yeyasu Tokugawa ( Shogun ) for over 260 years, ruining Japan . Even under Buke, Emperor has been still aliving.However, atthe end of Tokugawa , Edo era, Buke had been vanished completely and disappeared . Then, under new government , MEIJI, Emperor returned and started to ruin Japan again .Why did Buke vanish in Japanese history after 1,000 years since birth ?__________________________________________________________Ota nyt k将」ytt将モ将モsi uuden sukupolven Windows Live palvelut!http://get.live.com[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________See the most popular videos on the web http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]---------------------------------Power up the Internet with Yahoo! Toolbar.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Hi Tom,

Here is the real thing which I like to point out regarding why BUKE were foreced to be changed to other ranks at the end of EDO era.


They say one very tiny bud of problem had been born and been buried in the society already, and grew bigger and bigger , before something happened and the society was changed entirely. In this case, the change of BUKE had been attributed mainly to the change of economy .


In the interim of Edo Bakufu days, the economy had been changed gradually to Money oriented economy , Commodity oriented economy from longcontinued Feudal economy . And so , Buke were forced to be poorer and poorer as a result of the fact that BUKE got only registered income from BAKUFU , but
Merchants had began to be richer and richer.
In order to get more income , BUKE got impose heavier tax on Farmers, facing to the poverty of BUKE. so sever, resulting in Farmers riots against such heavier tax imposed by BUKE.
On the top of that , BUKE borrowed more loan from Merchants and BUKE soon became in a position not be able to return loan to them. And at the end of Edo Bakufu days, Bakufu lost power to get back the social order to be ruined to be transformed to new Meiji Government.

Facing to the change, Meiji Government issued public bonds and gave to BUKE to sell and become capitalist newly , or BUKE newly were assigned to be Governors under the new constitutes.

As I pointed out earlier, the main reason why BUKE were forced to be changed to other ranks was the change of economy.

By the way, what part of England are living ? I visited London several times on business quite a long time ago.

Eddie

Tom Dowling wrote:

Eddie,

Info assimulated! As to your supposition on the role of the emperor, perhaps the views pre-Tokogawa and a glimps into Roman history may provide illumination for you. Consider the opinion of the first Westerners in Japan: Zavier and his associates, traders etc. What was their perception of the
emperor? They called him the "pope of Japan". The title suggested a man of respect, of holyiness and position, but someone who lacked real power, more influence perhaps. And a quick consideration of the later Roman Emperors: they too often were figure heads, and lacked quantifiable power. Looking
in these area may help refine your questions and answers. Drop me an email if you want to bounce ideas off me. P.s, I'm an Englishman, not an American.

Tom Dowling

To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: eddiehiramoto@...: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:19:21 +0900Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?

Hi Tom, and All,Your saying, evolve , or assimulated into something else, is right word , I agree.( Even I used to live in US for 15years and have been involving the business with US over 30 years , using English, I can't use right English. Sorry about that.However, thanks to you and other
American friends in this community, I'm glad to learn and find more unknown word of English and increase the vocaburary.)In fact, lastly, Buke, Samurai were forced to become Governer, Policeman, Farmer, Businessmen, Teacher, etc , due to the fact that New Meiji government formed and issued new
constitution , resulted in non existence of occupation of Buke. Before Meiji revolution , Buke was the top rank of class next to Emperor, then Farmers, Merchants, etc. However, after Meiji revolution, Buke class evolved to others like above mentioned.Now, my next question is then , does Emperor
exist from now on ?After Buke took over the power of reign firstly about 1,200 years ago, Emperor continued to alive , exist without doing things but just doing the things related to religion in somewhere in Kyoto. And, after WW II, Emperor keep doing just smiling , eating with visiters from
overseassometimes without the right to vote, because he was appointed as the symbol In fact, Japanese needed something like symbol , mercy , for the time being after collapse by WW II , however, Japan recovered completely and now , most of Japanese don't need mercy, symbol any more. So, one day,
there will be no reason to exist . Maybe, one day, they are forecedto become just civilian and take some job to alive.How do you think ?EddieTom Dowling wrote:Things tend not to vanish, rather evolve, or they are assimulated into something else. Roman Legions did not
vanish: the quality of the army was diluted until the Western Empire fell to the barbarian tribes; the Vikings enjoyed much power until the black death arrived in Norway in 13th century,only for the few to survive to be conquered by Danes and Swedes. The class of "Knights" continued, but ceased
to be a major force on the battlefield (perhaps think of the samurai after the Tokogawa shogunite). Longbows are weaponary, and would have become obsolete when there was something better,cheaper and easier to train mass infantry, i.e powder and lead to use Marx's terms. Same with cavalry. when
armoured vehicles could be produced more reliably, quicker and cheaply, horses, cavalry ceased to be an important force on the battlefield. Just look at the first great war, most nationsuse cavalry (think of Lawerence of Arabia), but the second great war, scarcly a horse is photographed in the
entire campaign. Soldiers and ruins? I think poor leadership leads to ruins - not soldiers per se.Regards T. Dowling BA; MA (hons)To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: tengu64@...: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 01:05:11 +0200Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in
Japanese History at end of Edo era ?you mean rule etc...why vanishing?why roman legions vanish?why the zulus?why vikings?why knigihts? why longbows? cavalry?etc...look around...its not that difficult!anyway:you are right about something:as long as there are soldiers,there will be
ruins...regards..JoreTo:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: eddiehiramoto@...: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 14:05:24 +0000Subject: [samuraihistory] Why did Buke ( Samurai ) vanish in Japanese History at end of Edo era ?In Japan, Buke was born around 1,200 years ago. After that, Buke had been
growing and increasing powergradualy. Buke did have stronger power than Emperor since Heisi ( Kiyomori Taira ) and followed by Genji ( Yoritomo ) , then Asikaga, warriors days to Nobunaga, Hideyosi, and Yeyasu Tokugawa ( Shogun ) for over 260 years, ruining Japan . Even under Buke, Emperor has
been still aliving.However, atthe end of Tokugawa , Edo era, Buke had been vanished completely and disappeared . Then, under new government , MEIJI, Emperor returned and started to ruin Japan again .Why did Buke vanish in Japanese history after 1,000 years since birth
?__________________________________________________________Ota nyt k将」ytt将モ将モsi uuden sukupolven Windows Live palvelut!http://get.live.com[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________See the most popular videos on the web
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