Zen and Samurai Warriors

To make it clear Zen was and is a religion. I have so often heard
this idea that Zen is a philosophy, not a religion. This comes in
America mostly from the 60's and 70's and the explosion of what one
of my teachers called Californian Buddhism. Psuedospirtual wannabes
who wanted to rebel against Jeudo-Christian thought read a book or
two and started teaching their misunderstandings to others. A
perfect example that is thrown around a lot in America... "the world
is only an illusion". No the world is very real, Zen does not teach
that the world is in any way an illusion. What is the illusion is
how we see the world due to our own mental attachments, which keep
us from seeing how it really is. Zen is a religion, just because
there is usually no mention of god/s, devil/s, heaven or hell doe
not keep it from being a religion. Zen does not teach these things
do not exist, but rather if they do or not is unimportant to the
goal of Zen. With some alterations Zen can be practiced as a
philosophy instead of a religion, i mean the idea of rebirth life
time after life time is religious and would have to be removed to
practice it purely as a philosophy, in its original context Zen is a
religious teaching. This is not to say that the idea of
philosophical Zen is wrong.... rather keep in mind that it is a
philosophy based on a religion. As much as I don't like to do
this... it would KIND OF (and I am stressing kind of)be like someone
saying they followed the teachings of Jesus without believing he was
the son of God. That's the best Western comparison I can think of.
So yes, if you change some things Zen can be practiced as a
philosophy and not a religion.... but to say that it IS NOT a
religion is a misunderstanding of Zen.

what a bull!!!there is not any teachings,no profets,no books,no gods etc...nothing that can "read" as a religion...not even the most important:the fate..zen denies all of this.thats all...its not even a philosophy..thats totally wrong.zen has nothing to do with religion or philosophy...and people who claims that simply dont have a clue what they are talking about!!!...pseudo jewes-christianity etc..in my studies of religion,philosophy,sitting in zenmonastery etc last 27yrs i have not ever read such crap..ever!that writing must be a joke!dont take it seriously....Jnot read such crap...ever!!!people,


To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: scottc_4@...: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 04:57:16 +0000Subject: [samuraihistory] Zen and Samurai Warriors




To make it clear Zen was and is a religion. I have so often heard this idea that Zen is a philosophy, not a religion. This comes in America mostly from the 60's and 70's and the explosion of what one of my teachers called Californian Buddhism. Psuedospirtual wannabes who wanted to rebel against Jeudo-Christian thought read a book or two and started teaching their misunderstandings to others. A perfect example that is thrown around a lot in America... "the world is only an illusion". No the world is very real, Zen does not teach that the world is in any way an illusion. What is the illusion is how we see the world due to our own mental attachments, which keep us from seeing how it really is. Zen is a religion, just because there is usually no mention of god/s, devil/s, heaven or hell doe not keep it from being a religion. Zen does not teach these things do not exist, but rather if they do or not is unimportant to the goal of Zen. With some alterations Zen can be practiced as a philosophy instead of a religion, i mean the idea of rebirth life time after life time is religious and would have to be removed to practice it purely as a philosophy, in its original context Zen is a religious teaching. This is not to say that the idea of philosophical Zen is wrong.... rather keep in mind that it is a philosophy based on a religion. As much as I don't like to do this... it would KIND OF (and I am stressing kind of)be like someone saying they followed the teachings of Jesus without believing he was the son of God. That's the best Western comparison I can think of. So yes, if you change some things Zen can be practiced as a philosophy and not a religion.... but to say that it IS NOT a religion is a misunderstanding of Zen.






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I apologize to other members of this list for not letting go of this.
This group is probably not the proper place for is. That being said
though I have to mention some of the faluts in the arguement presented
agasint Zen as a religion. There are teachings. A follower of
religious Zen takes part in such rituals as the Boddhisatva vow and
seeking refuge in the three jewels. There are books. Just to list a
few: Shobogenzo, Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch, Perfection of
Wisdom is also used sometimes, some times even the Lotus Sutra. I will
ignore the argument about gods because that is complex and I want to
keep this short, other than saying you are correct that generally gods
are not represented. If you have the 27 years of experience you claim
to have, I would think you would have heard of at least a few books
written by Chinese and Japanese Zen masters. Such masters also do
write about past and future lifetimes and karma and duhka and samsara
and many other core Buddhist concepts. One thing Zen strongly rejects
that is often common in Chinese/Japanese Buddhism is the comcept of
mappo.

> Posted by: "jore lehtinen" tengu64@...
> Thu May 1, 2008 7:16 pm (PDT)
>
> what a bull!!!there is not any teachings,no profets,no books,no gods

I used to study sumi-e at a Zen Buddhist church, sorry Zen is an
offshoot of Buddhism. It is a religion, check out some of the official
websites for the various sects or visit a Zen temple and find out.

For example:
http://www.sotozen-net.or.jp/kokusai/kokusai.htm

Go halfway down and see:
Words from the Buddhist Scriptures and Records of the Patriarchs

Oops these look like writings to me, oh no! they have patriarchs as
well. I'm not sure if you can call the original Buddha a prophet or not,
mostly they think of him as a teacher. Are there Buddhist gods? Good
question, I would say some sects think there are, but Japanese gods
aren't the all powerful beings like Western religions.

Even a cursory hunt for information on Japanese Zen Buddhist sects in a
good library or a local temple will turn this information up, so you
don't have to trust the web.

I also recommend studying English, your e-mail gives the impression that
you are rude and illiterate, certainly not someone who has seriously
studied Zen for many years.

Jim Eckman

Well said my friend. Very good. at least now we have someone who
writes the real stuff about Zen. Zen is derived from the teravada
buddhism. Just like the tibetan buddhism, chinese/japanese
buddhism.After buddhism came to their countries, it mixed with their
culture. That is why i always encourage people to learn from the
original. The root of all. besides the teravada buddhism(original),
all are called/catogorised under the Mahayana. Some have lost the
essense of the Buddha's teaching.

The story is long. Just know that Zen is a type of
buddhism. Like all types of buddhism. There is no god. So it is not
right to say that Zen is a religion. Like all Budhism, the mind is
utmost important. Yoga practisioner, Kung Fu masters, martial
atists.....blah blah blah.....etc are practicing Samatha meditation.
Only buddhist do Vipasana meditation.



"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion
which based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any
religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism."-
Albert Einstein

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote:
>
> I apologize to other members of this list for not letting go of
this.
> This group is probably not the proper place for is. That being said
> though I have to mention some of the faluts in the arguement
presented
> agasint Zen as a religion. There are teachings. A follower of
> religious Zen takes part in such rituals as the Boddhisatva vow and
> seeking refuge in the three jewels. There are books. Just to list a
> few: Shobogenzo, Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch, Perfection
of
> Wisdom is also used sometimes, some times even the Lotus Sutra. I
will
> ignore the argument about gods because that is complex and I want
to
> keep this short, other than saying you are correct that generally
gods
> are not represented. If you have the 27 years of experience you
claim
> to have, I would think you would have heard of at least a few books
> written by Chinese and Japanese Zen masters. Such masters also do
> write about past and future lifetimes and karma and duhka and
samsara
> and many other core Buddhist concepts. One thing Zen strongly
rejects
> that is often common in Chinese/Japanese Buddhism is the comcept of
> mappo.
>

samsara,karma etc...that is budhism!not buddhism..and nothing to do with zen!zen is mushin munen.thats all...sutras sometimes are chant,but not as teaching tools..cause there is nothing to teach,nothing to learn,nothing to pray...if you dont have mind and its empty:where is religion?were you clothes,eat you food,drink you tea...thats it....

To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: scottc_4@...: Fri, 2 May 2008 18:34:09 +0000Subject: [samuraihistory] Zen and Samurai Warriors



I apologize to other members of this list for not letting go of this. This group is probably not the proper place for is. That being said though I have to mention some of the faluts in the arguement presented agasint Zen as a religion. There are teachings. A follower of religious Zen takes part in such rituals as the Boddhisatva vow and seeking refuge in the three jewels. There are books. Just to list a few: Shobogenzo, Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch, Perfection of Wisdom is also used sometimes, some times even the Lotus Sutra. I will ignore the argument about gods because that is complex and I want to keep this short, other than saying you are correct that generally gods are not represented. If you have the 27 years of experience you claim to have, I would think you would have heard of at least a few books written by Chinese and Japanese Zen masters. Such masters also do write about past and future lifetimes and karma and duhka and samsara and many other core Buddhist concepts. One thing Zen strongly rejects that is often common in Chinese/Japanese Buddhism is the comcept of mappo.





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Zen is Buddhism. Zen is not something seperate from Buddhism.
 
 Any claim against this shows a deep lack of the Buddha's teachings and the nature of reality-itself... and ultimately, it shows a deep lack of experience with Zen.
 
 Simple as that.
 
The same thing that is happening to Zen (westerners trying to colonize Zen) is happening to the Tibetan's Dzogchen teachings.
����� It is not an issue of actual doctrine--- it is an attempt to colonize the parts of the religion that are "cool" without keeping the parts that are "uncool" (the vows and logic).
 
 ����� The same thing also happens to native american spiritual teachings. People always just read a little  bit in a book and they colonize the "cool" parts and leave behind the "uncool" parts.
 
 This is usually because the colonizers want to "look cool" and "feel cool" with the looks and fun parts... but, because they are ultimately atheist or Christian, they disregard the actual religious traditions because they are still afraid to go to Hell.
  For example, people like to "mellow out and just relax"... and pretend that they are doing some kinda of Zen ... but they don't  believe in reincarnation because "They are Christian"..
 Seriously.. Zen without Dharma ? No such thing.
   ����� Zen without Dharma is only a corrupted mental image of Zen.
������ ����� It does not correspond to the reality .... and it lacks direct perception.  
 
   ����� Dzogchen is Buddhism.  Zen is Buddhism.
 
 Why?
 
 ����� Because Garab Dorje was a Buddhist. Bodhidharma was a Buddhist. Manhjushrimitra was a Buddhist..etc.etc.etc..
 
 These are Buddhist teachings.
 
 ����� Buddhism = Triple Refuge, Four Seals, Four Truths, Eight fold-path on a minimum...
 
 ����� Just because the form and path may be various, as long as a teaching is in accordance with those 4 minimums listed above, it is a "Buddhist" teaching.
 
  ����� So, "Buddhism" just means "Teachings in accordance with the Buddha's Teachings".
 �����
   Where the word Buddhism is used, we should insert the word "Dharma".
 
��������� So..
 
 Zen is Dharma.
 Dzogchen is Dharma.
 
���������������� ����� If your Zen is not Dharma, it is not Zen.
��������������������� If Dzogchen is not Dharma, it is not Dzogchen.
 
���������� ����� Please stop getting "religion" from a book.
���������������� Please stop "spiritual shopping"--- you disrespect these ancient traditions by piece-n-piece patchwork quilting them into YOUR desired result.
������  �����
������������   ����� Since this forum is about Samurai... let us end on that note :
 
����������������� "Make your choice. Follow it correctly and follow it to its conclusion.
Any variation along the way is nothing more than your inability to commit showing forth."
 
����  

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, jore lehtinen <tengu64@...> wrote:

From: jore lehtinen <tengu64@...>
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Zen and Samurai Warriors
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 3:59 PM







samsara,karma etc...that is budhism!not buddhism..and nothing to do with zen!zen is mushin munen.thats all...sutras sometimes are chant,but not as teaching tools..cause there is nothing to teach,nothing to learn,nothing to pray...if you dont have mind and its empty:where is religion?were you clothes,eat you food,drink you tea...thats it....

To: samuraihistory@ yahoogroups. comFrom: scottc_4@hotmail. comDate: Fri, 2 May 2008 18:34:09 +0000Subject: [samuraihistory] Zen and Samurai Warriors

I apologize to other members of this list for not letting go of this. This group is probably not the proper place for is. That being said though I have to mention some of the faluts in the arguement presented agasint Zen as a religion. There are teachings. A follower of religious Zen takes part in such rituals as the Boddhisatva vow and seeking refuge in the three jewels. There are books. Just to list a few: Shobogenzo, Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch, Perfection of Wisdom is also used sometimes, some times even the Lotus Sutra. I will ignore the argument about gods because that is complex and I want to keep this short, other than saying you are correct that generally gods are not represented. If you have the 27 years of experience you claim to have, I would think you would have heard of at least a few books written by Chinese and Japanese Zen masters. Such masters also do write about past and future lifetimes and karma and duhka and samsara and
many other core Buddhist concepts. One thing Zen strongly rejects that is often common in Chinese/Japanese Buddhism is the comcept of mappo.

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